RE: What happened to the Rallye? PH Blog

[Pappagallo]

KimJongHealthy said:

Anglesey registration; are you from over that way?

[5lab]

its interesting just how many fwd cars do still oversteer at the limit - check out this recent set of clips at the ring - there's minis, Kas, even a zafira heading off the black stuff backwards, and none look like their going super quick either (I can testiment to the ring being very slippry when wet). Goes to show its not just a trait for french hot hatches!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHR3KXykAOQ

[wibblebrain]

BritishRacinGrin said:

wibblebrain said:

Nobody knows how "over-enthusiastic" the OP was being, nobody actually knows whether it was really the ditchfinders alone that caused the problem, nobody knows how much the greasy roads were a factor - there could have been diesel on the road.

You didn't read the article then?

To save you looking, Matt admits that 'over-enthusiasm' was a factor. So driver error, basically. Yes, the tyres may have been rubbish and the roads may have been slippery, but at the end of the day it is the driver's failure to mitigate the risk that causes the crash.

Also, to save you coming out with some sort of sarcastic 'driving god' 'armchair expert' claptrap, yes I have made mistakes behind the wheel over the years, fortunately not resulting in any collisions.

Of course I read it. Yes he admits to over-enthusiasm, but just how much, if any, of a factor this actually was is not something you or anyone else is in a position to judge. Matt thinks it was a factor, but the other factors could be more significant. So it's not fair to assume that "over-enthusiasm" was responsible when it could be that something else (e.g.: the tyres) was actually the major cause.

[AJB]

wibblebrain said:

Of course I read it. Yes he admits to over-enthusiasm, but just how much, if any, of a factor this actually was is not something you or anyone else is in a position to judge. Matt thinks it was a factor, but the other factors could be more significant. So it's not fair to assume that "over-enthusiasm" was responsible when it could be that something else (e.g.: the tyres) was actually the major cause.

But, assuming the tyres didn't suddenly fail or suddenly aquaplane on a deep puddle, then it's a driver's job to drive within the limits of their car, its tyres, the road surface, the weather, etc., etc..

Saying that an accident was caused by cheap tyres doesn't work in my opinion. And, to his credit, OP isn't blaming the tyres either.

Otherwise I could crash my car on the way home by going too fast round a corner, and then blame the car saying it doesn't grip or handle as well as and MP4-12C and so it's the car's fault and the tyres' fault, not mine.

[iloveboost]

5lab said:

its interesting just how many fwd cars do still oversteer at the limit - check out this recent set of clips at the ring - there's minis, Kas, even a zafira heading off the black stuff backwards, and none look like their going super quick either (I can testiment to the ring being very slippry when wet). Goes to show its not just a trait for french hot hatches!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHR3KXykAOQ

I haven't watched that video yet but I've seen similar ones of many tourists crashing in style. Even understeer biased FWD cars seem to be much more likely to get snap or lift oversteer in the wet than in the dry. I assume one reason is that drivers panic then over-react. It's easy to control minor front and rear tyre slip you can feel but once either ends slides when you aren't on the throttle it's really tricky to get it back. Unless you're a driving god of course.
I think the wet makes a car more responsive to driver inputs because of the reduced grip and the car having relatively stiffer suspension. I believe both of these things mean you're inputs effectively become faster in the wet so you need to slow both the entry speed and all your input speeds down. I think once it slides because of the reduced grip it tends to slide more. On track you've got space to sort out big mistakes but once it snap oversteers I think it's gone especially if it's wet. You can only hope it works out ok.

[micawrx]

Careful when admitting over exuberance in black and white when you hit someone else in claim culture Britain

[GOG440]

I had a massive moment in my 405 back in the day, heading onto the m4 somewhere near reading, slip road signed as a 40, I didnt believe it and turned in at 70 ish. I then realised that they werent pissing about and it really was a 40mph corner,I backed off the throttle and it snapped sideways. I mean really really sideways, I was looking at the woman in the metro i had just overtaken out of my side window! Luckily I did the right thing and reapplied the throttle (along with the opposite lock) and managed to catch it before I hit anything.
More luck than management that I didnt hit anything, and I never ever backed off on a corner again.
(and before anyone says anything it was bone dry, the car was 3 years old , had passed its MOT about 3 or 4 weeks before and had good condition Michelin tyres)

[aw51 121565]

bitwrx said:

OP - you didn't say if it was just lift-off oversteer or you braked. For anyone thinking of buying a similar era 306, can I recommend following the actions outlined below at the first available opportunity:


At least then when you apply brakes mid corner like a rookie, the front brakes will come on as well.

(It's a rear brake load-sensing valve BTW, notorious for seizing in the all-brakes-to-the-rear position)

Thanks for posting this pic... My 309 has always felt as if the rear brakes come on first - it needs a new handbrake cable plus new shoes in the very near future (all the parts are here, I'm just lazy but the car is off the road), so I'll have a tinker with the rear brake load sensing valves (which the Haynes Book Of Economy With The Truth overlooks apart from a brief mention in passing) as well .

[RoverP6B]

I managed to slightly bend my wife's 205 1.4 Roland Garros once too. Now, I'd thrashed the arse off it over just about every mountain road on the Franco-Spanish border, made it do things a little shopping trolley like that should not be capable of doing (and it just kept on asking for more!), but guess where I bent it and how? Doing about 15-20mph in the pouring rain on the exit of a roundabout (I was going straight on, 2nd exit) one filthy November morning. It was the Burford Bridge roundabout on the A24 north of Dorking, heading south, for those who know the area. Good Michelin tyres, plenty of tread all round, car in good condition overall - but I suddenly had no grip whatsoever, I might as well have been on skis. Aquaplaned straight into a massive stepped kerb. Despite owning that and an E30 BMW [318iT] (two of the now most notoriously tail-happy cars around) at the time, I've never had any problems with unanticipated oversteer. Good tyres are a must, it has to be said. The E30 COULD be provoked into oversteer in greasy conditions, but it always gave plenty of warning. My lovely old Rover P6 actually gave me a bit of a fright back in the mid 80s - pirouetting beautifully on a patch of black ice. Spun on a sixpence and carried on its way. No grip, no traction, steering inputs had absolutely no effect. You might have thought the combination of V8 torque, 1200kg weight and old technology 145-section tyres (if memory serves!) would have been a recipe for rubber smoke and smashiness, but not a bit of it. That car had the nicest handling of anything I've ever driven. Grip and traction were not easily overcome and gave lots of warning - backing up the point made by another poster about the fundamentally benign nature of even quite significantly overpowered FR-layout cars.

Regarding P6000s - that's what my E39 5er came on when I bought it, and the previous owner was a Lady de Vere who lived in a hall in Suffolk, so I doubt she'd have wilfully put it on cheap tyres. There wasn't a lot of tread left on those when I bought the car (they'd clearly already seen plenty of use) so I put Avons on it a couple of months or so later (and it does seem to ride better and quieter with those on it). I have to say that the P6000s seemed fine - can I ask why they are so derided here? I wasn't driving the thing hard by any means (it's a 1700kg bus, not a go-kart!), and with 102bhp/ton it's not a rocketship, with plenty of weight over the rears, but I've never found myself wanting for grip or traction in it. I did manage to bend it slightly recently - 10mph into the towbar of the car in front of me on the M25. No damage to either car save the front bumper on mine having popped off one clip. Simple tiredness and inattention - which is also how I managed to put a massive dent in the driver's side door of my E30. A little bit too hot and wide into a parking space at a supermarket and walloped a bollard. Shortly afterwards, my neighbour reversed her Citroen ZX into the same dent and made it worse, so that got fixed on her insurance! We're all human, we all make silly mistakes and, if the conditions are greasy, that really doesn't help. To this day, I have no idea why I aquaplaned in that 205. I knew the road like the back of my hand, had driven it in all conditions, it had never lost grip there and, in the dry, could be hurled through that roundabout at surprising speed, and it would just stick and GO. No fuss, no lift-off oversteer, nothing - then one day, no grip whatsoever.

[405dogvan]

Sucks when it happens but I'm genuinely surprised to hear that ANYONE buys TPFT insurance anymore?

Seriously, why would you even do that?

I've not seen a TPFT quote which was usefully cheaper than FC for a LONG time - when I've asked they've generally been a BIT cheaper but with FAR fewer companies offering it, there's less competition and sometimes it's even more expensive??

Even for younger drivers or drivers with lots of points etc. - I can't remember the last time I heard of a useful saving going that route.

I'd also like to add that TPFT won't help you if your car is flooded or struck by lightning or a tree falls on it etc. - given how popular those things are atm ;0

[s m]

GOG440 said:

I had a massive moment in my 405 back in the day, heading onto the m4 somewhere near reading, slip road signed as a 40, I didnt believe it and turned in at 70 ish. I then realised that they werent pissing about and it really was a 40mph corner,I backed off the throttle and it snapped sideways. I mean really really sideways, I was looking at the woman in the metro i had just overtaken out of my side window! Luckily I did the right thing and reapplied the throttle (along with the opposite lock) and managed to catch it before I hit anything.
More luck than management that I didnt hit anything, and I never ever backed off on a corner again.
(and before anyone says anything it was bone dry, the car was 3 years old , had passed its MOT about 3 or 4 weeks before and had good condition Michelin tyres)

Even experienced road testers can get caught out at the limit - the Mi16 version proved a handful on track sometimes - demo car on good quality tyres

Edited by s m on Sunday 16th March 08:30

[DC2 Mark]

Really sorry to hear about your misfortune.

I had a 106 GTi many years ago and it was an absolute riot. Decent rubber and controllable lift off oversteer on tap.

Moved onto a DC2 Type R and it was great but gradually the bushes became more and more tired until it felt like a death trap. Hugely unpredictable rear end grip.

Had a full rebush, springs, dampers, drop link, TREs and ball joints and it was totally transformed.

Really opened my eyes to the difference a suspension refresh can make.

I insist on decent quality rubber these days too.

[Blue Oval84]

Is this video relevant to the talk of lively Pugs?

http://youtu.be/wCrVZKFDIuo?t=33s

[Welshwonder]

aw51 121565 said:

Thanks for posting this pic... My 309 has always felt as if the rear brakes come on first - it needs a new handbrake cable plus new shoes in the very near future (all the parts are here, I'm just lazy but the car is off the road), so I'll have a tinker with the rear brake load sensing valves (which the Haynes Book Of Economy With The Truth overlooks apart from a brief mention in passing) as well .

The 309 doesn't have a load sensing valve. Buy better front brakes!

[abbotsmike]

DuncanM said:

Brave post OP and a good understanding thread so far

The most common mistake I see with FWD cars is tyre purchase! Not the make/model, but the fact that people leave the rear tyres on for 40k+ and replace the front ones when they wear out (predictably much earlier than the rears).

I think tyre garages should always recommend swapping them, always having the new tyres fitted on the rear, and yet they have always been surprised when I've asked them to do this.

I'm a big believer in putting new tyres on the back, and swapping backs to front, no matter what the oversteer gods say. Managed to persuade all of my car driving friends over time that they should do exactly them same as well!

[Matt UK]

Shame, hard luck OP.

If it's any consolation to you whatsoever, that picture screams "over steer", which from a factual standpoint is the coolest way to crash a car.

[carinaman]

Matt Bird said:

Call it what you want, but I know the blame lies with me and nowhere else!

I wish more people were so honest with themselves and others. Very commendable.

How was the other car you hit? Was it parked or moving with people in it?

s m, thanks for another magazine scan.

It's a shame this Rallye died, but it's replaceable.

[carinaman]

I saw a red one today on a T plate. It sounded a bit like a nasally congested Subaru boxer.

[cirian75]

306's spin, never !

this is me lol

[Bonefish Blues]

Good effort!