Investment Cars
Discussion
twinturban said:
All plausible points but not really getting the Nazism thing, is this a reference to Porsche's history?
Either way I certainly don't believe Porsches will continue to rise nor that they are the greatest thing ever. Surely there are examples already of the Porsche bubble softening? Remember £220k 964 RS's? They are considerably cheaper than that already. There are many tales of 911s being hard to shift out there among the dealers. All of them are overpriced and I think everyone knows it.
My Nazism joke was more that most internet arguments seem to end up there. No idea why! Either way I certainly don't believe Porsches will continue to rise nor that they are the greatest thing ever. Surely there are examples already of the Porsche bubble softening? Remember £220k 964 RS's? They are considerably cheaper than that already. There are many tales of 911s being hard to shift out there among the dealers. All of them are overpriced and I think everyone knows it.
I hadn't heard about an inability to shift 911s. Good to know!
You have to be pretty lucky and/or switched on to really make money. Plus as has been said it really pisses the rest of us off that we can't buy and drive the cars we want because millionaires have put them in garages and won't drive them. However, I will be looking to get a new car later this year and will have to consider whether I think it will lose half its value in the time I own it or not and if I found something that I thought I could enjoy and break even on, I'd go for it. Although having said that I'm sure I'll do way too many miles...
Jex said:
"My generation (under 30s) doesn't really 'get' cars".
I am sure there are many on here who do - am I wrong?
No, you're not wrong, I'm into my cars and would love most of the cars being mentioned. However, I reckon I'm probably in the minority in terms of cars. Most people my age who claim to be into cars like something with a German badge and a label like M Sport or AMG line and think that means they've got an AMG. I'm not sure in 50 years they'll be too many people who fancy the 996 turbo that's doubled in value in the last few years. Obviously that won't really apply to us on PH.I am sure there are many on here who do - am I wrong?
Some odd suggestions in here, and the others - like the Ferrari F50 - started rising steeply a while ago now.
The future is in those cars that manufacturers can't make any more; manual, naturally aspirated sports car will surely continue to rise as our generations longs for interaction.
For me, an undervalued car is the S1 Lotus Elise and Exige. They are a great success story, are genuinely excellent and tidy ones are now harder to come by. We'll likely never see a car like them again, and yet - unlike all these Porsches - aren't even close to their as-new prices yet.
The future is in those cars that manufacturers can't make any more; manual, naturally aspirated sports car will surely continue to rise as our generations longs for interaction.
For me, an undervalued car is the S1 Lotus Elise and Exige. They are a great success story, are genuinely excellent and tidy ones are now harder to come by. We'll likely never see a car like them again, and yet - unlike all these Porsches - aren't even close to their as-new prices yet.
Anything VW and camping would be a good bet, with the added advantage that the enthusiast owner is unlikely to be a driving enthusiast. Presumably all camps are happy with this equilibrium?
I am not so sure that the bubble will burst as the global references make clear, which is different from previous "bubbles". However I can see it setting with some of the cars with horses on the badge not climbing anymore. I can also see more and more stuff becoming a classic, essentially the bubble gets wider not deeper.
Lastly I would also add that it is easy to see many truly exotic cars remaining impervious, while a lot of the 80/90's stuff that seems to be mentioned going down again. I thought the point about millennials not caring was quite key to this. I'll not pretend otherwise, I've brought 80/90's cars now as I can, but they really only have appeal to me and my peers. Soon we will die off and well......who will care about a scirocco then, even if I and others do now. Collectable fezzers mind will always be collectable.
I am not so sure that the bubble will burst as the global references make clear, which is different from previous "bubbles". However I can see it setting with some of the cars with horses on the badge not climbing anymore. I can also see more and more stuff becoming a classic, essentially the bubble gets wider not deeper.
Lastly I would also add that it is easy to see many truly exotic cars remaining impervious, while a lot of the 80/90's stuff that seems to be mentioned going down again. I thought the point about millennials not caring was quite key to this. I'll not pretend otherwise, I've brought 80/90's cars now as I can, but they really only have appeal to me and my peers. Soon we will die off and well......who will care about a scirocco then, even if I and others do now. Collectable fezzers mind will always be collectable.
Is it pessimistic and mean spirited to suggest that in 15-20 years time, most cars will be self driving, and the demand for cars with pedals and a steering wheel will be much lower? I can't envision today's 25 year olds being nostalgic about cars by the time they are 40-50 and have money to spend. I have an XK8 which is a nice looking car, but if I still have it in 15 years time, it will most likely just be a driveway ornament.
Having said that, the Ferraris and Astons at the very top end of the market will always find a buyer, as they are appreciated more as pieces of art than as transportation.
Having said that, the Ferraris and Astons at the very top end of the market will always find a buyer, as they are appreciated more as pieces of art than as transportation.
dannymullered said:
Slb89 said:
i can tell you a bunch of cars that will steadily go up, any car i've thought would has, some of these already starting to move, cars that move most are always low mileage stuff,
clio trophy
clio v6
s1 elise, s1 exige
honda s2000
lots of other honda stuff, ek9, dc5s
focus rs mk1
e36 m3s
old bmws , 850 etc,
audi quattro
old astons
old pokers, 944s on move, 928 obviously 911s, notably gt3s etc.
old golfs, even newer stuff like last gen r32 will increase eventually.
old mercs SL stuff.
audi rs3/4/6s will go up, e.g c5 rs6 is heading south still but it will plateu and inevitably go back up.
pre bmw minis
literally any stuff that are the types of cars they get us petrol heads blood flowing will eventually find themselves appreciating.
I would bet all the money I had that none of these cars will be worth more than their current values in 10 years time, and most of them will have depreciated except, perhaps, for GT3's. clio trophy
clio v6
s1 elise, s1 exige
honda s2000
lots of other honda stuff, ek9, dc5s
focus rs mk1
e36 m3s
old bmws , 850 etc,
audi quattro
old astons
old pokers, 944s on move, 928 obviously 911s, notably gt3s etc.
old golfs, even newer stuff like last gen r32 will increase eventually.
old mercs SL stuff.
audi rs3/4/6s will go up, e.g c5 rs6 is heading south still but it will plateu and inevitably go back up.
pre bmw minis
literally any stuff that are the types of cars they get us petrol heads blood flowing will eventually find themselves appreciating.
Tuvra said:
Again, I have to strongly disagree, many cars have appreciated hugely in recent times; Alfa 8C, Aston Martin Vanquish, Ford GT, Ferrari 550/575, Porsche GT3's, Mercedes SLS, Mercedes SLR's, TVR's, Noble's etc.
I suppose the key is when you get onto the depreciation/appreciation curve, SLS's for examples were changing hands for 90 odd grand a few years back, now they are up £140k+, which although was probably their new cost, they have in fact depreciated and then appreciated again quickly, same as things like the BMW 1M & M3 CSL.
I don't think adding in running costs and insurance etc is really relevant to the appreciation value of a car?
Most of your examples are people selling places on queues for hard-to-get cars - less 'investment' and more "arbitrage" really - and none of those people really 'owned' those carsI suppose the key is when you get onto the depreciation/appreciation curve, SLS's for examples were changing hands for 90 odd grand a few years back, now they are up £140k+, which although was probably their new cost, they have in fact depreciated and then appreciated again quickly, same as things like the BMW 1M & M3 CSL.
I don't think adding in running costs and insurance etc is really relevant to the appreciation value of a car?
Running costs are absolutely part of the issue - if you buy a car as an 'investment' you must maintain it, insure it against risk and those costs will eat into any profit you make on resale
Cars do drop and gain value for sure - but most people forget that
a - predicting this is impossible
b - you have to spend money on the car until it happens
So I maintain that VERY few cars are actually 'good financial investments' - sure, some people make money (mostly from short-term resale of limited edition vehicles) but if you look at the cars which have appreciated enormously over the last few years (almost any 911, E30 M3s and so on) most of their owners will have owned those cars for years and whilst it's great they've gone up in value, those owners were already HEAVILY invested into the cars and most likely will still 'lose money overall' (tho that's not why they bought the cars!!)
CS Garth said:
Impossible to answer without referencing all variable external factors.
Regardless the answer is Aston Martin Vanquish
Mine has gone up by around £20k in 12 months. Plenty of time for it to fall. But doubt it can hit the floor at these prices. a £600k DB5 though could make you suicidal with fear.Regardless the answer is Aston Martin Vanquish
spreadsheet monkey said:
Is it pessimistic and mean spirited to suggest that in 15-20 years time, most cars will be self driving, and the demand for cars with pedals and a steering wheel will be much lower? I can't envision today's 25 year olds being nostalgic about cars by the time they are 40-50 and have money to spend. I have an XK8 which is a nice looking car, but if I still have it in 15 years time, it will most likely just be a driveway ornament.
Having said that, the Ferraris and Astons at the very top end of the market will always find a buyer, as they are appreciated more as pieces of art than as transportation.
This is the ultimate end of the bubble - at least for anything other than a hyper car. Maybe not 15-20 but certainly 30-40 years. I recently presented "Transport of the Future" to the Cape Town Commissioner for Transport. My view is that public transport will become wider and deeper, Uber and self driving cars will be integrated into the network, giving true A to B service. As Elon Musk said "Any cars that are being made that don’t have full autonomy will have negative value. It will be like owning a horse. You will only be owning it for sentimental reasons". That's one hell of a lot of cars that people will want to love. So wait around values will drop, but then you'll probably only be allowed to drive it on private tracks with petrol at £100/gallon. Having said that, the Ferraris and Astons at the very top end of the market will always find a buyer, as they are appreciated more as pieces of art than as transportation.
Strangely enough I believe that XJSs will be one the rise in the next coming years.
This is due to the fact that most 60's GT cars (e.g. Maseratis and Ferraris) are beyond unreachable - price wise that this - as are most E-types (even the late 2+2 ones).
People will turn into those cars if they want to buy a bespoke GT car, exactly in the same way as to what has happened to Jensen and 70s and 80s Astons a few year back.
Other than that, some Japanese cars that have not been slaughtered beyond recognition will bump their prices. Mainly Silvias, 200SXs, RX7s, Skylines and Supras. Finding a good unmolested example of these in a good price would be almost impossible in a few years.
Someone mentioned the XJ220, this will also be a good investment as prices have been quite stale in recent years.
This is due to the fact that most 60's GT cars (e.g. Maseratis and Ferraris) are beyond unreachable - price wise that this - as are most E-types (even the late 2+2 ones).
People will turn into those cars if they want to buy a bespoke GT car, exactly in the same way as to what has happened to Jensen and 70s and 80s Astons a few year back.
Other than that, some Japanese cars that have not been slaughtered beyond recognition will bump their prices. Mainly Silvias, 200SXs, RX7s, Skylines and Supras. Finding a good unmolested example of these in a good price would be almost impossible in a few years.
Someone mentioned the XJ220, this will also be a good investment as prices have been quite stale in recent years.
I thought this website for people who like driving? Every other topic seems to be about a car as an investment and "my car is going up in value" who cares! Its like when people go on about how much their property has increased, such bores and this is coming from someone who just bought an integra type r!
Jonstar said:
I thought this website for people who like driving? Every other topic seems to be about a car as an investment and "my car is going up in value" who cares! Its like when people go on about how much their property has increased, such bores and this is coming from someone who just bought an integra type r!
This!! I want to know about how the cars we own drive and how they make you feel. Not about if it'll have appreciated in value in 15 years. Who cares?!Couchwarrior316 said:
This!! I want to know about how the cars we own drive and how they make you feel. Not about if it'll have appreciated in value in 15 years. Who cares?!
I only wish I was rich enough to buy anything and not care what price it sells for when I get shut of it. If only...
Sadly I live in the real world and buy carefully and hope it doesn't bankrupt me owning the damn thing.
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