Another unexplained acceleration
Discussion
Markbarry1977 said:
My gut instinct is that the dear old lady has probably by the law of averages got the wrong pedal but firmly believes she hasn't.
Having said that, how many times have I had to restart a pic or iPhone.
In my previous job I wrote software for a specific air traffic control system. The software had been in use worldwide for some 20 years. One day in a simulator running regression testing on a new modification there was a major safety error in the software found, nothing to do with the new change but in the original baseline software. Admittedly the scenario and user/operator switch and key actions requires to trigger the error were very specific and the chances of it happening millions to one but a student controller during a free play session happened to trigger it. He argued that it had happened we all said no you must have imagined it. In the end we replayed a recording of the test session. He was right we were wrong and all resources were dropped on everything to fix this problem.
My long winded point is that even when someone says it's impossible, there's always that one in a million sequence of things that can cause unexpected errors.
No argument there, despite being mature, e-throttle strategy and hardware is not completely infalable. However, regardless of any unintended acceleration, it is reasonable to expect a competent driver to apply the foundation brakes in such a scenario. In this case that doesn't appear to have happened.Having said that, how many times have I had to restart a pic or iPhone.
In my previous job I wrote software for a specific air traffic control system. The software had been in use worldwide for some 20 years. One day in a simulator running regression testing on a new modification there was a major safety error in the software found, nothing to do with the new change but in the original baseline software. Admittedly the scenario and user/operator switch and key actions requires to trigger the error were very specific and the chances of it happening millions to one but a student controller during a free play session happened to trigger it. He argued that it had happened we all said no you must have imagined it. In the end we replayed a recording of the test session. He was right we were wrong and all resources were dropped on everything to fix this problem.
My long winded point is that even when someone says it's impossible, there's always that one in a million sequence of things that can cause unexpected errors.
For her argument to hold water, there needs to have been simultaneous failure of the mechanical aspects of the braking system, coupled with a hardware or software malfunction causing no brake pedal application to be recorded, whilst in parallel a hardware or software failure of some sort caused the unintended acceleration in the first place.
Given the redundancy and independence in hw and sw between the two systems, use of multiple processors (or cores) and separate hw watchdogs, I think the likelihood of the brake pedal monitoring and DBW throttle systems simultaneously s
tting themselves whilst still running the engine is highly unlikely.TwistingMyMelon said:
Was sat in a car park last week, lady parked next to me floored it in reverse hit the car behind at speed, not a car park knock, but propper high speed hit. Old dear then tried to drive off, we stopped her she gets out sees half the car behind demolished and before we said anything she goes "I didnt do that"
OK sample size of 1, but the denial and attitude was scary
My grandad was the same, watched him knock off a cyclist and not even realise
Various other anecdotes involving elderly drivers , normally pulling away/start/stopping and then not "realising" what theyve done
Im sure there are a few good drivers in their late 70s, but a large proportion shouldn't be on the road
I work in a car dealership and part of our forecourt is over a main road and shared with a Shell garage. Many years ago we heard an almighty crash from over the road.OK sample size of 1, but the denial and attitude was scary
My grandad was the same, watched him knock off a cyclist and not even realise
Various other anecdotes involving elderly drivers , normally pulling away/start/stopping and then not "realising" what theyve done
Im sure there are a few good drivers in their late 70s, but a large proportion shouldn't be on the road
Upon going out to see what had happened, there was a Seat Arosa with it's rear embedded in the side of one of our used cars, which had been shunted sideways into another used car, the rear of the Arosa was totalled and the O/S/R wheel had been ripped clean off, there was also a damaged Ford Galaxy which had been queuing at the pumps, the Arosa had swiped the side.
I was one of the first on the scene, someone opened the door of the Arosa to be met with a very confused elderly lady, the first thing that she said was "that man, that man, it was that mans fault"; there was no man, the car was an auto and in R and her foot was firmly planted on the accelerator.
We aren't exactly sure what had happened but we think she put the car into reverse by mistake and hit the accelerator full on and then just panicked.
About a month ago the 80yo grandmother of my daughters boyfriend had a moment in her car (an auto); daughters boyfriends mum was getting out of the car, the grandmother for some reason hit the accelerator whilst the car was in reverse, boyfriends mum was dragged along the road, breaking her foot and severely grazing a leg, two parked cars were also badly damaged.
Edited by HTP99 on Saturday 4th February 12:05
Thankfully my Grandad voluntarily gave up driving before the point at which I think he could have been a danger, he was starting to suffer with dementia and it was a massive relief when I visited one day and he mentioned that his insurance was due and it was a "bit expensive" so he should probably get rid of the car - his insurance was about £150 so I think it was his way of doing things on his terms 
In this case I suppose you can run and run and run as it's almost impossible to prove it wasn't some freak one in a million "software bug" but on the balance of probabilities I suspect it's simply an elderly driver who either got confused or simply made a mistake and is desperate not to admit that it lead to someone's death.
In this case I suppose you can run and run and run as it's almost impossible to prove it wasn't some freak one in a million "software bug" but on the balance of probabilities I suspect it's simply an elderly driver who either got confused or simply made a mistake and is desperate not to admit that it lead to someone's death.
donkmeister said:
Overall, which is a) more reliable and b) has the safer failure mode?
Also, why do throttle systems of all types have a vastly increased rate of dangerous failure when in close proximity to octogenarian ladies? Is there an ingredient in werthers originals that messes with the system?
Coming soon, near to you, the Toyota Soylent green processing plant!Also, why do throttle systems of all types have a vastly increased rate of dangerous failure when in close proximity to octogenarian ladies? Is there an ingredient in werthers originals that messes with the system?
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: Thankfully my Grandad voluntarily gave up driving before the point at which I think he could have been a danger, he was starting to suffer with dementia and it was a massive relief when I visited one day and he mentioned that his insurance was due and it was a "bit expensive" so he should probably get rid of the car - his insurance was about £150 so I think it was his way of doing things on his terms
My father in-law stopped voluntarily at 84, his insurance was rising each year, something like £700+ finally for a 1.2 Corsa. No accidents and actually safe, slow at times but I always thought a safe driver.It does seem that auto gearboxes are the common factor, regardless of age of the driver. There are loads of videos of young people doing similar wild crashing into buildings and cars.
But it does seem highly likely this particular lady made a fatal error.
RobM77 said:
Wills2 said:
FurtiveFreddy said:
yellowjack said:
Anyone got a link to that track day/driving experience video?
The one where the instructor is yelling "Brake! Brake! ...BRAAAAKE!!!" and the chap driving it is yelling back "I am, I am, I am" as they leave the track and drive at high speed over the grass at the side of the circuit.
The bloke driving is absolutely convinced that he's braking, even though he's clearly hard on the throttle and the poor bloke beside him is begging him to use the brakes...
No, but I've got this one...The one where the instructor is yelling "Brake! Brake! ...BRAAAAKE!!!" and the chap driving it is yelling back "I am, I am, I am" as they leave the track and drive at high speed over the grass at the side of the circuit.
The bloke driving is absolutely convinced that he's braking, even though he's clearly hard on the throttle and the poor bloke beside him is begging him to use the brakes...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuotmQy4r4E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4ZmolZCnX8
k BRAKE, bang bang bang on the grass fk......Completely normal voice, Ah, well, that was a less than ideal situation....... Wills2 said:
st! The instructor is nearly in tears at one point haha!These things do happen...my new at the time Scirocco TDi took off on its own I was in second gear doing no more than 20mph, next thing it was full throttle rev's off the counter thankfully there was nothing around, a seal blew on the turbo it was running flat out on its own engine oil till it ran out, I shudder to think if this had happened in traffic or at a pedestrian crossing.
Klippie said:
These things do happen...my new at the time Scirocco TDi took off on its own I was in second gear doing no more than 20mph, next thing it was full throttle rev's off the counter thankfully there was nothing around, a seal blew on the turbo it was running flat out on its own engine oil till it ran out, I shudder to think if this had happened in traffic or at a pedestrian crossing.
In your case there was a very obvious failure that caused it to do that. In this case, there is nothing to suggest that, just the word of an 80yr old who is adamant that they didn't press the accelerator.The selfish aspect here (I think) is that she simply won't face responsibility for her mistake.
For a person who doesn't know anything about cars it is very easy to blame the throttle and the brakes. That person doesn't realise that others (who know a little about cars) know that it's an impossible situation realistically and those people wouldn't bother trying to argue it.
For a person who doesn't know anything about cars it is very easy to blame the throttle and the brakes. That person doesn't realise that others (who know a little about cars) know that it's an impossible situation realistically and those people wouldn't bother trying to argue it.
SonicShadow said:
Klippie said:
These things do happen...my new at the time Scirocco TDi took off on its own I was in second gear doing no more than 20mph, next thing it was full throttle rev's off the counter thankfully there was nothing around, a seal blew on the turbo it was running flat out on its own engine oil till it ran out, I shudder to think if this had happened in traffic or at a pedestrian crossing.
In your case there was a very obvious failure that caused it to do that. In this case, there is nothing to suggest that, just the word of an 80yr old who is adamant that they didn't press the accelerator.If its the same type of random failure it doesnt matter what the age is of the driver
You cant say X didnt happen because someone was 80
speedking31 said:
GroundEffect said:
... the smartest people in the business have spent 20 years writing software and standards for this stuff. Don't underestimate it.
A suggestion: If the throttle pedal is depressed quickly to 100% don't allow any power. (Or make 98-100% a dead zone.) How often does anyone except a racing driver actually need WOT? In a powerful car you are better off gradually increasing the throttle. That would prevent the accidental surge caused by stamping on the wrong pedal.To appease the driving gods, it could be programmed into 'old folk' mode, or alternatively overridden by engaging 'Sport' mode.
I am sure that such a restriction would reduce this type of incident significantly.
For example, blocking rapid throttle demands would, possibly, prevent the, extremely rare and generally non lethal (people generally just drive into inanimate objects) cases of accidental throttle application by the driver. However, it would also cause a much much larger number of incidents when the vehicle fails to respond to a deliberate panic throttle input, such as pulling out onto a roundabout, having not spotted an oncoming car, and being unable to keep accelerating out of their way!
Trust me, the Failure Modes and Effects Management carried out in software torque control is long, intensive, onerous, and extremely robust. In reality, FBW cars are much safer than conventional throttle cable vehicles, because the system can detect torque control errors, and use another actuation path to limit that torque (for example, cut power to the ETC motor, cut power to the injectors or coils etc). Added to which, the system is self diagnosing, it spots faults due to the large number of redundant sensor inputs in now has.
For example, primary flywheel torque demand is arbitrated from the following sources typicall:
Dual redundant accelerator pedal position sensors
Dual brake pedal limit sensors and often a position sensor too
Brake system pressure (from ABS)
Brake booster vacuum sensor
Throttle position (dual redundant)
Measured longitudinal vehicle acceleration (F=MA)
The systems also run completely redundant "Equizzers" a secondary processor that monitors the primary processor, and can shut the throttle independently, and is also used to inject deliberate "faults" into the sensor inputs to check the primary system spots those faults and acts accordingly.
On top of all that, any modern car has a braking system at least 6x as powerful as the engine (even a crappy shopping car can get from 100mph to zero in around 5secs, but takes over 25 sec to get from 0 to 100mph!)
So, for un-intended acceleration due to an vehicle fault we would need:
Assuming the driver doesn't apply the brakes:
1a) a double pedal position sensor failure, and that dual failure would have to precisely fail in such a fashion as to present a valid "WOT" signal to the controller. And that failure would have to magically repair itself after the crash and leave no trace, physical or electronic
or
1b) A fundamental software "glitch" that applies full throttle just long enough to cause the accident, but isn't picked up by the redundant checking, but that software glitch doesn't set any faults, or effect any of the other complex engine or even powertrain control actions (such as getting the air and sparks at the right time for the engine to actually work), and again, magically disappears without trace after the accident.
Assuming the driver does apply the brakes (as claimed here):
2) same as 1a or 1b but a complete and simultaneous failure not just of all the brake system hydraulics, but also all the other brake system sensors (pedal position sensor(s), ABS system line pressure sensors, and that mechanical and electrical failure again fixes itself entirely post crash.
Contrast that with:
3) Accidental application of the wrong pedal by the driver, who then, as could be expected from anyone, panics and continues to press the accelerator believing in their haste/panic/confusion, it to be the brake pedal that isn't working.
saaby93 said:
erm at what point did we stop taking the word of an 80 yr old?
If its the same type of random failure it doesnt matter what the age is of the driver
You cant say X didnt happen because someone was 80
Mechanical or electrical failures leave evidence that the failure occurred. Where is the evidence in this case? If its the same type of random failure it doesnt matter what the age is of the driver
You cant say X didnt happen because someone was 80
I know you like to play devils advocate, but the only reason this case is ongoing is because the daft old cow has enough money to keep paying the lawyers. It's very obvious what actually happened - she pressed the accelator and didn't press the brake like she claims she did.
SonicShadow said:
Mechanical or electrical failures leave evidence that the failure occurred. Where is the evidence in this case?
I know you like to play devils advocate, but the only reason this case is ongoing is because the daft old cow has enough money to keep paying the lawyers. It's very obvious what actually happened - she pressed the accelerator and didn't press the brake like she claims she did.
I read it that she did say she pressed the accelerator but the car 'took off' for some reason peeps are getting hung up on the brakes instead, but never mind I know you like to play devils advocate, but the only reason this case is ongoing is because the daft old cow has enough money to keep paying the lawyers. It's very obvious what actually happened - she pressed the accelerator and didn't press the brake like she claims she did.
saaby93 said:
I read it that she did say she pressed the accelerator but the car 'took off' for some reason peeps are getting hung up on the brakes instead, but never mind
Because the theory goes like this:She presses the accelerator to move forward.
She tries to press the brake pedal to stop this motion.
Mistakenly, she presses the accelerator harder and the car accelerates.
The brakes therefore are relevant in that she tried to brake but did the opposite. If he had braked, the car would have stopped. If she had touched neither pedal, it would have crept forward (assuming this car has a normal torque converter automatic gearbox). In trying to brake but making a mistake, she caused the death of another.
Jimmy Recard said:
saaby93 said:
I read it that she did say she pressed the accelerator but the car 'took off' for some reason peeps are getting hung up on the brakes instead, but never mind
Because the theory goes like this:She presses the accelerator to move forward.
She tries to press the brake pedal to stop this motion.
Mistakenly, she presses the accelerator harder and the car accelerates.
She says that she was trying to move forward, pressed the accelerator lightly and the car took off
Its only after that she tried the brakes
It's a subtle but important difference
She's not saying that when she pressed hard on the brakes the car took off - in which case this thread wouldnt exist
saaby93 said:
I read it that she did say she pressed the accelerator but the car 'took off' for some reason peeps are getting hung up on the brakes instead, but never mind
People keep mentioning brakes because she said she was braking after the car took off yet she clearly didn't as brakes would overcome engine. It just seems you want to ignore this as it doesn't suit your argument.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff