RE: Porsche 911 GT3 (991.2) : Review

[Shnozz]

Dan Trent said:

I'm going to play the long game, see how it ACTUALLY plays out and gather intelligence along the way before revisiting it in due course.

Fair enough for being honest, that reads to me you don't want to be involved in the investigative journalism. It takes someone who wants to dig in now and not wait on the sideline to see how it plays out in the long game. If its happening, its happening now (or in the recent past).

As I say, no qualms and your remit as a journalist is no doubt more to write about the cars, as you have done. It is perhaps more the domain of an investigative journalist and not a car reviewer in light of the backdrop.

[Dan Trent]

Two ways of looking at it really isn't it - if I'd done the same inspired by my mate with the GT4 and written an article saying "Outrageous - Porsche dealers turning away enthusiast buyers in favour of flippers!" it would have been accurate at the time. But if I'd written it a year later I'd be reporting a very different experience for one buyer, which I'll concede is a single case study but suggests it's easy to get carried away in the heat of the moment.

And speaking honestly consumer/investigative journalism of this type DOES take time and legwork. Given we share expertise and resource with our colleagues on What Car? who are in a better position to conduct such work I'll pitch it as something we can perhaps collaborate on and share the results across both titles. Consider it on the agenda next time we have a group editorial meeting!

Cheers,

Dan

[n17ves]

Dan Trent said:

Two ways of looking at it really isn't it - if I'd done the same inspired by my mate with the GT4 and written an article saying "Outrageous - Porsche dealers turning away enthusiast buyers in favour of flippers!" it would have been accurate at the time. But if I'd written it a year later I'd be reporting a very different experience for one buyer, which I'll concede is a single case study but suggests it's easy to get carried away in the heat of the moment.

And speaking honestly consumer/investigative journalism of this type DOES take time and legwork. Given we share expertise and resource with our colleagues on What Car? who are in a better position to conduct such work I'll pitch it as something we can perhaps collaborate on and share the results across both titles. Consider it on the agenda next time we have a group editorial meeting!

Cheers,

Dan

I think you are missing the real story that is already happening....This isn't just about a few customers flipping cars, this about the lengths that some customer are going to secure a slots. Any yes, this includes brown paper bags, holidays and free nights out on the town....

I myself are waiting for Porsche GB's response first, otherwise quite happy to spill the beans from what I have learnt.

[tim milne]

Dan Trent said:

tim milne said:

Dan Trent said:

KJH said:

So why do you not do some Investigative journalism on the Porsche and their sales distribution? I think I have never seen any car news outlet done any snooping around Porsche and their sales structure.

Because that doesn't sound as fun, interesting or entertaining to write about as skidding a GT3 round Anglesey? The video would be pretty dull too.

Dan

This is a good question and worthy of more than Dan's glib reply. Every other publication has pretty much the same video of the red GT3 sideways around Anglesey with the same hyperbolic commentary along the lines of "whoooaahhh, it's amazing"

It certainly would be interesting to dig into this story a bit deeper, perhaps to provide some authority to the endless anecdotes ("a friend of my mate bought one / couldn't buy one") and give PH an edge on their competitors and perhaps satisfy the curiosity of their readers who are clearly worked up enough about this subject whether their in the market for one of these cars or not.

Otherwise, it could be concluded — and so Dan's response above is not as tongue-in-cheek as it sounds — that PH is there primarily for the journalists' privileged access and visceral enjoyment and not for the benefit of its readers. Or is it antagonising Porsche GB that's the problem?

It was a glib response and I hoped to be taken as intended, though I'm not daft and realise there could be more read into it than that.

I'll repeat what I said earlier and agree this IS an interesting subject and whether the picture painted in discussion is true or not it's a problem of perception Porsche GB needs to be aware of and deal with. In the background I have been talking about it with them and a few folk I know with experience of going through the process of buying and selling cars like this and their experiences with a view to exploring it in more detail a little way along the line. Two reasons I haven't done this yet.

1) I honestly did want to just talk about the car and, yes, celebrate it for what it is. We may not all be able to buy one but with Porsche building them and such a fuss being made about a naturally aspirated, track focused car being offered with a manual gearbox you can only hope the rest of the industry is taking note and perhaps considering a customer demographic they thought was dead and gone may yet be worth catering for. Or, in the case of those that still do (I'm thinking of Lotus specifically) maybe send some of that business their way. If not the second coming it IS a car worth getting excited about and I just wanted the chance to be able to do that.

2) Experience shows (again repeating myself) that the situation a year on from the launch when the order process has shaken out is often very different. Case in point, a mate with no previous history of buying new Porsches had very much the 'in your dreams mate' response when he approached his OPC about a GT4 in the midst of very similar hype. He put a deposit in anyway, bought a used 997 GT3 instead and then a year later got a call from the same OPC to say "if you want to proceed with the order we now have a slot for you". Not saying it'll be the same in this instance but the atmosphere immediately following the announcement and first drives of a new GT Porsche is often somewhat febrile and once reality kicks in the picture looks very different.

So I'm not complacent. I am interested. But I'm going to play the long game, see how it ACTUALLY plays out and gather intelligence along the way before revisiting it in due course.

For now, yes, I'll happily indulge in a bit of fun with the car and celebrate what it is as a machine, rather than get bogged down in the politics of how it is sold.

Hope that makes sense!

Cheers,

Dan

Edited by Dan Trent on Friday 28th April 13:16

Ok, thanks for the clarification, Dan

I also think, while you're contemplating / researching this, there's the bigger story underneath this, that's affecting a wider number of cars than GT Porsches — and that's the seemingly inexorable rise of performance car prices. As an earlier poster pointed out, the 996GT3RS was greeted with an indifferent response both from journalists and buyers, but lo-and-behold, it's now a covetable asset just like all the rest.

It's not controversial to assume that some of the people buying these cars aren't primarily enthusiasts who'll rag their machines at every opportunity. But in reality, who's buying these cars? How many are fickle speculators and now many are hardened enthusiasts or are they both — more people with the means to drop big money on their dream Porker? Is it overflowing cash that's financing these cars or borrowed money? Have the likes of Porsche now figured out to do it — make a few less than the demand to stoke the demand (see BMW 1M vs M2 prices)?

I think there's an interesting story that would merit some investigation and maybe offer some authoritative insight into where this is all going to lead — we all talk about the good old days when performance cars were affordable, but will those days ever return?

[Dale487]

s m said:

Dale487 said:

So the GT3 has 493bhp, the same as the old GT3 RS. There doesn't feel like there is much head room for more power out of what is clearly an amazing engine.

So where does Porsche go?:

- GT3 RS with the same power but with extreme lightening? Even more use of carbon etc
- Miss the GT3 RS and go straight to the GT2 RS - which is pretty much confirmed already
- 4.1 or 4.2 litre version of this engine?

& will Porsche do a 991.2 R?

Certainly some room for some forthcoming models

I.e. a 991.2 GT3 RS
a 991 GT2 and 991 GT2 RS
991.2R

Porsche are certainly going to launch 2 of the 4 models above if not 3 or all 4.

I'm questioning what will they be like technically - as the 4 litre engine is pushing 124bhp/litre, there can't be much more for it to give in road specification. & any GT3 RS would need at least 25bhp over the GT3.

Press rumours are that there'll be no GT2 but Porsche will go straight to the RS version - which with a turbocharged engine it'll easily produce well over 100bhp more than the GT3.

& an R could just be a GT3 manual with revised aero & suspension settings plus retro details.

I'm not sure we'll get a 991.2 GT3 RS - unless there's a larger capacity engine in the pipeline.

[D200]

Fire99 said:

Durzel said:

Don't quite get the need to dedicate 3 paragraphs to attacking the readership the article is hoping to get attention from...

The stage managed availability of cars like this is a problem and it's not unreasonable for people who just want to be able to buy and enjoy these cars to moan about having to suffer the ridiculous market dynamics.

At this end of the market Porsche seems to be in the business of releasing new investment assets every year rather than selling cars to people who want to be able to enjoy them for what they are.

+1 (more) Very well said.

+1

I think those paragraph’s and some of Dan’s responses could appear to be condescending to the PH readership - not Intended I know but it appears to be the impression some have. You don’t want to be accused of being bribed by Porsche!

I also think the buying process and price of this car is extremely relevant, as it is with any car…

Review the car by all means, and you could jokingly mention ‘the Palava’ but try harder not to appear to be unintentionally condescending to your loyal readership

I think you could fix all your issues with the review by entering the price as:

111k + local Porsche Dealership taxes of between 25% > 500%

Do the same for all GT3’s. GT4’s 911R’s etc...

[mechagran]

Roma101 said:

mechagran said:

The single best introduction to a car article I have ever read. My thoughts exactly. "I want I want" doesn't get you anywhere. Time to accept you either arent rich enough or important enough - suck it up and stop crying.

Oh and, guess what you have the internet, food and central heating. These are not real problems so grow the fk up.

You sound like a charming person. No doubt it has got you far in life though.

I am a lovely person, mainly because not only am I not rich or important but the difference is that I know it and accept it. So you wont hear the pitter patter of my tears on Porsche Exeter's drive when they turn me away without my much needed GT3.

I guess I'll just have to settle for a normal 911 or something. How incredibly unfair life is.

Oh wait....

I

[Dale487]

Dan Trent said:

Two ways of looking at it really isn't it - if I'd done the same inspired by my mate with the GT4 and written an article saying "Outrageous - Porsche dealers turning away enthusiast buyers in favour of flippers!" it would have been accurate at the time. But if I'd written it a year later I'd be reporting a very different experience for one buyer, which I'll concede is a single case study but suggests it's easy to get carried away in the heat of the moment.

And speaking honestly consumer/investigative journalism of this type DOES take time and legwork. Given we share expertise and resource with our colleagues on What Car? who are in a better position to conduct such work I'll pitch it as something we can perhaps collaborate on and share the results across both titles. Consider it on the agenda next time we have a group editorial meeting!

Cheers,

Dan

If the investigative article is run but proves nothing but demand outstrips supply & that there are a number of wealthy enough potential customers who were over looked to buy a limited run Porsche, would it dispel the rumours, conspiracy theories & the like?

I think that what ever the outcome of the investigative journalism that goes into the allocation of Porsche GT cars in the UK, it needs to be published as the debate over it clearly dominates every Porsche GT car thread, if not every Porsche thread. Also it'll prove if there's appetite for this type of article or not.

I'm "lucky" I don't have enough money to buy any car from an OPC, so this doesn't directly effect me but as a fan of the cars I'm sad that the allocation debate seems to over shadow the whole release & review of cars that Porsche should be applauded for making by enthusiasts.

[SidewaysSi]

We all talk about allocations etc. I bought a new GT4 from my OPC. Never owned a Porsche previously and never even bought a new car. No issues or hassles.

[BlackPrince]

Roma101 said:

You sound like a charming person. No doubt it has got you far in life though.

He sounds like an entertaining person at least, which is more than can be said for apparently-humourless you, mate :P

[MDL111]

I don't think the moaning is all that warranted - you spends your money and you get what you want. Become a very good Porsche customer by buying multiple Cayennes, Panameras, Turbos etc at the same OPC and I am pretty confident they will sell you a GT3 - to own or to flip - as reward for that.

i liked the article and the Porsche/Ferrari Forums sound more and more like investment forums with people complaining they were not allocated shares to the latest no brainer money spinner IPO

And if you really want a car, then buy it on the secondary market for a mark up - if it is the best thing since sliced bread and you will keep it a long time to drive, then the mark up won't significantly impact you. It is not like we are talking F12tdf, LaFerrari or even 911R mark ups

[Robert-nszl1]

The journo tried to make the article about the car.

[Steve7777]

Robert-nszl1 said:

The journo tried to make the article about the car.

"embittered types"

"supposed true enthusiasts"

"pitchfork brigade"

Sure he did.

[Dale487]

Steve7777 said:

Robert-nszl1 said:

The journo tried to make the article about the car.

"embittered types"

"supposed true enthusiasts"

"pitchfork brigade"

Sure he did.

I see it as tackling the elephant in the room head on.

[BaronMcLaren]

It's quite simple, the dealerships reward their best and most loyal customers. Shock horror.

If it was your own business you'd do it no differently, no mater what you preach here.

I'm sick of the wringing of hands and gnashing of teeth of the supposed 'enthusiasts' bemoaning others getting a GT/RS/R slot instead of them. What gives any of us the right to buy one of these from new, if I don't get one (and I don't expect to as I got a GT4) then I'll be diving headlong into the approved used market in time. If it's good enough I don't mind paying the premium, I'll suffer the depreciation... yeah cars are supposed to depreciate and cost you money.

Neither Porsche nor the franchised network owe any of us shot at one of these and the sooner the more entitled among us realise that the better.

Someone earlier in the thread said it far better than I could "far fewer wanted GT product when it actually cost you money to run one"

And BTW Dan good write up.

Edited by BaronMcLaren on Friday 28th April 22:38

[anonymous-user]

Great write up. Shame about the attitude.

[Sierra Mike]

I think many people are missing the point. The article is about the car and it's a good one at that. Frankly, I don't think who an OPC sells to or doesn't and the criteria behind it are interesting at all. An OPC will sell to whoever they want so long as it doesn't bring the brand or itself into disrepute. That's as far as the story goes.

At the end of the day, if you want a car, it helps to have a relationship and I don't mean the kind that involves brown paper bags filled with cash or prostitutes. Build a history with the dealer whether you're buying, selling or servicing cars. Never buy a car and sell it outside of the Porsche network. Dealers should support customers who support dealers. I've had more than my fair share of negative experience with one dealer but there are some very good ones out there as well.

Credit where it's due. Despite the premium its cars are commanding due to excessive demand, Porsche has not price gouged and stuck to its formula of increasing the base cost for the second generation by just £10,000. Supply will probably increase but not sufficiently that it irresponsibly meets demand. The 991.2 GT3 will be a fantastic car however surely the fight that some people are willing to put up to buy one sours the experience. If you get one, you get one. If you don't, there are other GT cars still worth buying new and used.

Now, how come nobody's talking about the limited edition 991.2 Sport Classic?

[Rich_W]

How Porsche choose to sell it's cars is up to them.

I find it odd though that they limit supply and keep costs low though.

This GT3 could easily be up for £160K list AND make them in larger numbers. Sure they'd still be flippers. But at least Porsche would be making more money than the investors.


Given the guy said the other day that Porsche is not about replacing hedge funds (or somesuch) you wonder why they don't tap the market a bit deeper.

[swisstoni]

Seems the issue here is that Porsche are allowing their dealerships to be the kingmakers, based on (ahem) local interest.

If there was a central ballot or something, then all this local suspicion would be history.

Frankly if I ran an OPC I'd dread the next hot limited edition because I'm going to get pestered by the shysters all over again.

[davidc1]

What a super car . Love it . These cars , and similar , are all about the tingle they give you .Make mine manual , black rims , agate grey. Or if paint to sample window is open , I would go for macadamia metallic.
Only thing I can't get on with is the front overhang, is a bit much.