RE: Jean-Marc Gales exits Lotus
Discussion
Exige77 said:
Just looking at the PH thread on the new Audi Q8.
It mentions 1/3 of all Audi sales worldwide where Qs and 1/2 of sales in USA.
I wouldn’t buy one, but that is where the market is atm.
It could be the cash cow Lotus need to fund the new Esprit or other halo model.
And somebody posted that the hideous little sIt mentions 1/3 of all Audi sales worldwide where Qs and 1/2 of sales in USA.
I wouldn’t buy one, but that is where the market is atm.
It could be the cash cow Lotus need to fund the new Esprit or other halo model.
tbox MG SUV sold 20,000 units last year in China. Lotus could certaiinly do with some of that.suffolk009 said:
And somebody posted that the hideous little stbox MG SUV sold 20,000 units last year in China. Lotus could certainly do with some of that.
The massive question will inevitably be whether Lotus stays in UK at all. tbox MG SUV sold 20,000 units last year in China. Lotus could certainly do with some of that.it's not as if the Chinese venture to build sports cars at Longbridge worked out well.....
rockin said:
The massive question will inevitably be whether Lotus stays in UK at all.
it's not as if the Chinese venture to build sports cars at Longbridge worked out well.....
Sure they will keep something in the UK as that’s part of the legacy of the brand they Have bought. it's not as if the Chinese venture to build sports cars at Longbridge worked out well.....
Same thing with Volvo. A lot of production moved to China but something still in Sweden to keep the Swedish Volvo story alive.
As above, I expect you'll see more engineering being done in the UK, and maybe low-volume manufacturing of future niche models in their sports car range of models.
The brand will be pushed as a prestige marque with heritage in the Chinese market, and then broader afield as they push internationally. Geely are no stranger to the UK either (leaving aside the LEVC) - the final suspension setup for some of their own models in recent years was done on UK roads and at MIRA by teams of British engineers.
The brand will be pushed as a prestige marque with heritage in the Chinese market, and then broader afield as they push internationally. Geely are no stranger to the UK either (leaving aside the LEVC) - the final suspension setup for some of their own models in recent years was done on UK roads and at MIRA by teams of British engineers.
rockin said:
The massive question will inevitably be whether Lotus stays in UK at all.
it's not as if the Chinese venture to build sports cars at Longbridge worked out well.....
Specialist manufacture like Lotus doesn't easily move abroad. I'm not saying it won't, but the economic case for making things in China is not what it used to be.it's not as if the Chinese venture to build sports cars at Longbridge worked out well.....
The big question is what Geely sees in Lotus. DRB didn't know what to do with them, despite talks of 'synergy' with the rest of the group. Bahar thought they were a brand and nothing else. MJK wanted a common platform to enable niche vehicles to be built cheaply and quickly. Gales perhaps saw them most as a performance marque.
For all the talk of what Chapman wanted Lotus to be, he mainly wanted it to be profitable - and was quite happy to build whatever car suited that aim, from single seaters to executive GTs. When people were still figuring out car technology, it was possible to steal a march on the competition with some very innovative engineering tricks. These days, the possibilities for inventing something the others haven't thought of is much reduced. In terms of 'bang for your buck' the cost efficiencies of mass production cannot be matched from a shed in Norfolk - which is why Lotus isn't about to make an MX5 competitor. And why they would be very unlikely to out compete the others purely with new technology.
As it is, we should have seen this coming. None of the 'new plans for Lotus' have lasted more than five years since Chapman went. The only question is whether Geely will manage to produce a new model before the next change of direction/owners.
bobo said:
added very little ... bring in a guy that can get more done than just a paint job, smaller pulley and nitrons for double the price !
I don’t mean to be rude but when I read comments like this I can’t help but think the poster has no understanding whatsoever of the commercial situation Lotus found itself in at the start of JMGs tenure nor where it sits now. In fact it betrays a total and utter understanding of how the car industry, or indeed basic commerce, works.bobo said:
added very little ... bring in a guy that can get more done than just a paint job, smaller pulley and nitrons for double the price !
At least he wasn't as delusional as his predecessor. I thought I read once that he asked his engineers to pull a car apart, and then bit by bit went through the parts with them to determine where they could get away with simplifying and using cheaper parts.Sounds to me that the sum of raising prices to sometimes ridiculous levels, cutting down costs by using cheaper parts (in cars that already had the image of being overpriced) and releasing monthly special editions with a new paint job bought Lotus enough time to scrape along a bit further.
ESOG said:
saaby93 said:
Tesla isn't a Hybrid 
There seem to be some real experts on here
Yes I am aware of this. I didn't think I needed to explain myself so thoroughly, I figured everyone would understand what I meant. But hey thanks for pointing that out. Lol jackassThere seem to be some real experts on here
Europa1 said:
Sorry, no, I read your post and thought you were mistaken Tesla as well. It was the stuff about the "Tesla route" in the first sentence, followed by "hybrid" in the second.
I guess I am sitting here thinking just who in the world would buy a Lotus SUV OR EVEN consider it as their first, second, third or fourth or even fifth consideration given the long list of already produced SUVs? I mean Lotus hasn't even made a profit in forever in what they do BEST this one year\term aside and they think enough people will line up to justify building enough to compete with the other players...Think how expensive an Elise is and there is nothing to it. Now imagine the price of a fully loaded SUV by Lotus.
ESOG said:
I guess I am sitting here thinking just who in the world would buy a Lotus SUV OR EVEN consider it as their first, second, third or fourth or even fifth consideration given the long list of already produced SUVs? I mean Lotus hasn't even made a profit in forever in what they do BEST this one year\term aside and they think enough people will line up to justify building enough to compete with the other players...
Think how expensive an Elise is and there is nothing to it. Now imagine the price of a fully loaded SUV by Lotus.
They dont need to make a profitThink how expensive an Elise is and there is nothing to it. Now imagine the price of a fully loaded SUV by Lotus.
saaby93 said:
ESOG said:
I guess I am sitting here thinking just who in the world would buy a Lotus SUV OR EVEN consider it as their first, second, third or fourth or even fifth consideration given the long list of already produced SUVs? I mean Lotus hasn't even made a profit in forever in what they do BEST this one year\term aside and they think enough people will line up to justify building enough to compete with the other players...
Think how expensive an Elise is and there is nothing to it. Now imagine the price of a fully loaded SUV by Lotus.
They dont need to make a profitThink how expensive an Elise is and there is nothing to it. Now imagine the price of a fully loaded SUV by Lotus.
Would you care to expand on that ?
Brooking10 said:
Eh ?
Would you care to expand on that ?
Every year they spend money on stuff so they could end up breaking even Would you care to expand on that ?
At least thats one way of looking at it
In practice they spend a bit more so end up making a loss
It's ok though because the kudos of their cars transfers across and wins them contracts for the engineering division
In effect the loss is what theyre spending on marketing
It's only a method of accounting
It probably has some tax benefits too
saaby93 said:
Brooking10 said:
Eh ?
Would you care to expand on that ?
Every year they spend money on stuff so they could end up breaking even Would you care to expand on that ?
At least thats one way of looking at it
In practice they spend a bit more so end up making a loss
It's ok though because the kudos of their cars transfers across and wins them contracts for the engineering division
In effect the loss is what theyre spending on marketing
It's only a method of accounting
It probably has some tax benefits too
Fastpedeller said:
saaby93 said:
Brooking10 said:
Eh ?
Would you care to expand on that ?
Every year they spend money on stuff so they could end up breaking even Would you care to expand on that ?
At least thats one way of looking at it
In practice they spend a bit more so end up making a loss
It's ok though because the kudos of their cars transfers across and wins them contracts for the engineering division
In effect the loss is what theyre spending on marketing
It's only a method of accounting
It probably has some tax benefits too
matfitzpatrick said:
I had a deposit on an Evora 400 earlier this year but for financial reasons had to back out. At the time I was gutted as I loved the ‘rawness’ of the car, the sound it made was incredible and it’s very niche and not a mass produced ‘Euro box’.
That said the car was up at £83,000 and that is a lot of money. My heart can appreciate why you would pay that as it’s Lotus, niche, special and so on but in hind sight my head is shouting ‘what were you thinking!’. That puts it in direct line of sight with many other premium cars, maybe not as raw or special but with a stronger dealer network and reputation and let’s not forget that 400bhp in a car that’s not really that light will now struggle against many hot hatches at almost half the price!
If you poke around the Evora, as a product it’s difficult to see where the £83k is, purely as the sum of its parts; Toyota Camry engine, Avensis gearbox, Alpine headunit - doesn’t sound like the stuff of dreams. As a general consumer I want to feel like I’m sat in an £83,000 car which, honestly, I didn’t but at the time I was happy to forget that, as my heart said yes because of the reasons above.
I guess you have to be a ‘car guy’, ‘fan boy’ or similar to warrant the expense and to really appreciate that you are paying for proper engineering that you can’t see, rather than electric this and automatic that which just add weight and complexity. Luckily for Porsche they attract the car guy, the fan boy and the badge snob alike as they have a solid product and a name they can, and do, trade on.
Lotus are stuck between a rock and hard place; I think their current products are over priced, their heritage means they deserve to be up there with McLaren and they deserve more than just pumping out c£30k sports cars but compare an Evora GT430 and a 540C and to me they are poles apart in terms of product quality but not so much in terms of price.
Probably the only post on here that I can agree with. My issue with the Evora engine ( and gearbox to a lesser extent) that it lacks any sort of kudos. Yes I know its reliable etc etc but putting it in an 80K car. That's a tough ask IMO. That said the car was up at £83,000 and that is a lot of money. My heart can appreciate why you would pay that as it’s Lotus, niche, special and so on but in hind sight my head is shouting ‘what were you thinking!’. That puts it in direct line of sight with many other premium cars, maybe not as raw or special but with a stronger dealer network and reputation and let’s not forget that 400bhp in a car that’s not really that light will now struggle against many hot hatches at almost half the price!
If you poke around the Evora, as a product it’s difficult to see where the £83k is, purely as the sum of its parts; Toyota Camry engine, Avensis gearbox, Alpine headunit - doesn’t sound like the stuff of dreams. As a general consumer I want to feel like I’m sat in an £83,000 car which, honestly, I didn’t but at the time I was happy to forget that, as my heart said yes because of the reasons above.
I guess you have to be a ‘car guy’, ‘fan boy’ or similar to warrant the expense and to really appreciate that you are paying for proper engineering that you can’t see, rather than electric this and automatic that which just add weight and complexity. Luckily for Porsche they attract the car guy, the fan boy and the badge snob alike as they have a solid product and a name they can, and do, trade on.
Lotus are stuck between a rock and hard place; I think their current products are over priced, their heritage means they deserve to be up there with McLaren and they deserve more than just pumping out c£30k sports cars but compare an Evora GT430 and a 540C and to me they are poles apart in terms of product quality but not so much in terms of price.
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