RE: Porsche 718 Cayman T vs. Alpine A110
Discussion
British Beef said:
I would go the other way and shoot for Lotus Exige, similar weight and cost and >100hp more, and a V6 and a manual gearbox - win, win!!
As a weekend hoon/track day car I'd take an Elise or an Exige too (though the Elise 220 which is nearer on price to the Alpine, spec for spec, is in practise quite a lot slower once you get past 60). But as an everyday or long distance car the Alpine (or Cayman for that matter) is in a different league for finish, refinement and practicality. I can't really see anyone really choosing between them for the same job. As CABC says there is a case for both if you want to cover all bases. In truth the Alpine is much more a half price Evora competitor than an Elise/Exige one. Had I not preferred the Alpine I would have bought a second-hand Evora 400 to replace my 981S Cayman. But I can see others preferring the Evora (the latest Evora 410 review in Harry's garage is very complimentary). Difficult to justify £100k on a new one - but I'd take it over a 911 any day.
Edited by bcr5784 on Monday 29th July 17:23
Edited by bcr5784 on Monday 29th July 17:25
Edited by bcr5784 on Monday 29th July 17:27
ben5575 said:
Nerdherder said:
Besides two small plucks of 'yo' language a VERY good article and love that is has tonnes of enjoyable pictures.
Well done Dan and Chris!
Have to echo this. Really strong work guys.Well done Dan and Chris!
drjdog said:
The porsche is a Porsche, and the alpine is a Renault. They are a different class of car. Get the Alpine in 10 years, they'll be cheap and ratty by then. Fingers crossed.
In 10 years the A110 will be ratty ? I have a 9 year old trashed Clio RS with 135,000 km on the clock. Still feels solid like a new car without rattles, let alone it looks ratty. Payed 20K Euros for it when new.BTW, just went to pick up a friends A110 at the detailer (was in for a ceramic layer), the guy told me that the A110 is at the same level (paintwork and fit) as a Porsche ... mentioning Ferrari and McLaren really aren't in the same league.
But yeah, a Porsche is a Porsche, most people want a Poooorsche ... because it's a Porsche.
av185 said:
springfan62 said:
Oh schmuck haven't you got a life yet.
If you do your research before you post Porsche fanboy drivel you will find that Porsche had to replace 785 GT3 engines to stop them bursting into flames, compare that to one pre production Alpine and nothing since.
Worth pointing out that this was caused by a supplier issue and 'only' 2 991.1 GT3 engines caught fire one of which was in Italy, none in the UK.If you do your research before you post Porsche fanboy drivel you will find that Porsche had to replace 785 GT3 engines to stop them bursting into flames, compare that to one pre production Alpine and nothing since.
My 2014 car was delayed by 5 months during factory shutdown over the summer and had a revised engine on the prod line during which time I received a brand new Cayman GTS loaner unlimited mileage and £1500 a month compensation from Porsche GB whose actions throughout were entirely fair and actually quite generous imo.
You would never receive that level of goodwill from any other car manufacturer imo.
Prestonese said:
Not that it matters that much but the Alpine will leave the manual Cayman T for dust on a number of B roads I drive on regularly. Even with a PDK, I would struggle to see the Cayman being quicker for most regular drivers. For roads which pitch and has bumps and rapid direction changes, the lack of weight makes such a difference and this is where the Cayman cannot compete regardless of whether it is just 200kg difference or more (you can debate as the method use to weigh them both but the Cayman is lardy in comparison however you look at it - don't believe the Porsche hype).
I've had a manual 981 CGTS on the same roads in the Pennines, Wales and Yorkshire Moors and the Alpine was a much more capable machine on these types of tracks. The lack of weight and steering feel gives you confidence of what is going on. On track is another thing though but that wasn't Alpine's objective to be fair.
What also makes the Alpine stand out as well is the way it carves these corners - I say carve as it really does feel like you are skiing. It is so different to any modern sports cars I've driven. The Alpine has no manual option which I can understand if you like that and also want a bit more of a challenge but it is so accessible, more fun and engaging but in different ways than you would expect. Go to any challenging mountain pass and you will see the difference - it is simply a better machine than any Cayman.
Sadly, I've just sold mine. I've just had a huge renovation to pay for, lack of garage space and we have a child on the way. Besides, the speed which I can drive the Alpine everywhere is a bit irresponsible. I'm happy to say that the new owner is a well known amateur hill climb racer so it is in good hands. He has never owned a modern sports car before but has been obsessed with these since he saw it at Prescott - you should have seen his face when he drove the Alpine for the first time. He also drives and races classic Porches so I'm glad he is also open minded.
I'm also glad Dan wrote about how comfortable and practical the car can be. It beats any car I've ever owned as a comfortable long range cruiser. It's super quick and cheap to fuel and you can have a lot more fun than any modern Porsche on any B road when you get there. You just need to leave the fancy clothes at home and pack lighter but I can get two weeks worth of luggage in these.
The T isn't a bad car I imagine. I've not driven one but given the difference between the 987R and 981 GTS to the standard versions, I can't see how there can be a massive difference in the driving experience here compared to the rest of the 718 range (GT4 aside).
Certainly on the roads Dan and I tested the pair on, they seemed inseparable in terms of raw pace, even if they delivered that pace in completely different ways. I've had a manual 981 CGTS on the same roads in the Pennines, Wales and Yorkshire Moors and the Alpine was a much more capable machine on these types of tracks. The lack of weight and steering feel gives you confidence of what is going on. On track is another thing though but that wasn't Alpine's objective to be fair.
What also makes the Alpine stand out as well is the way it carves these corners - I say carve as it really does feel like you are skiing. It is so different to any modern sports cars I've driven. The Alpine has no manual option which I can understand if you like that and also want a bit more of a challenge but it is so accessible, more fun and engaging but in different ways than you would expect. Go to any challenging mountain pass and you will see the difference - it is simply a better machine than any Cayman.
Sadly, I've just sold mine. I've just had a huge renovation to pay for, lack of garage space and we have a child on the way. Besides, the speed which I can drive the Alpine everywhere is a bit irresponsible. I'm happy to say that the new owner is a well known amateur hill climb racer so it is in good hands. He has never owned a modern sports car before but has been obsessed with these since he saw it at Prescott - you should have seen his face when he drove the Alpine for the first time. He also drives and races classic Porches so I'm glad he is also open minded.
I'm also glad Dan wrote about how comfortable and practical the car can be. It beats any car I've ever owned as a comfortable long range cruiser. It's super quick and cheap to fuel and you can have a lot more fun than any modern Porsche on any B road when you get there. You just need to leave the fancy clothes at home and pack lighter but I can get two weeks worth of luggage in these.
The T isn't a bad car I imagine. I've not driven one but given the difference between the 987R and 981 GTS to the standard versions, I can't see how there can be a massive difference in the driving experience here compared to the rest of the 718 range (GT4 aside).
Edited by Prestonese on Saturday 27th July 23:13
Danny Milner said:
Certainly on the roads Dan and I tested the pair on, they seemed inseparable in terms of raw pace, even if they delivered that pace in completely different ways.
I think it is sad if we get sucked into the debate about raw pace - 0-60 (an utterly meaningless statitstic with fast cars) or Nurburgring lap times or the like. The Alpine is avowable about driving enjoyment and to hell with those sort of statistics. The MX5 has been a roaring success on precisely that basis. Unfortunately the Alpine IS a fast car and competing with another fast car (the 718) both of whom have been got sucked into Nurburgring times and the like by the hot hatch manufacturers.I am old enough to know that the sort of speeds I regularly did when I was young are simply unacceptable now - and for the most part are simply impossible because of traffic conditions in the UK. So the emphasis (for keen drivers) has got to be driver involvement at lower speeds. It makes Supercars largely irrelevant (even if they weren't irrelevant because of their girth). Cars like the MX5, the GT86 and the Alpine (and hot hatches like the Clio Trophy 182 and Fiesa ST) are the ones that keen drivers should be welcoming.
Edited by bcr5784 on Monday 29th July 21:04
Danny Milner said:
Certainly on the roads Dan and I tested the pair on, they seemed inseparable in terms of raw pace, even if they delivered that pace in completely different ways.
That may be the case. From the pictures of your article, it seems like the roads your drove on were wider and had more open sweeping turns. That's where the weight advantages would not be as much a factor. Some of the roads I've driven on in both a Cayman and A110 were a bit twister, tighter and hillier. On those roads, most ordinary driving gods like myself would fare better in the Alpine I suspect. There is of course the likelihood that you are both much better at driving manual cars than me. That is part of your jobs after all so I'm completely fine with that!
Edited by Prestonese on Monday 29th July 21:14
bcr5784 said:
I think it is sad if we get sucked into the debate about raw pace - 0-60 (an utterly meaningless statitstic with fast cars) or Nurburgring lap times or the like. The Alpine is avowable about driving enjoyment and to hell with those sort of statistics. The MX5 has been a roaring success on precisely that basis. Unfortunately the Alpine IS a fast car and competing with another fast car (the 718) both of whom have been got sucked into Nurburgring times and the like by the hot hatch manufacturers.
I am old enough to know that the sort of speeds I regularly did when I was young are simply unacceptable now - and for the most part are simply impossible because of traffic conditions in the UK. So the emphasis (for keen drivers) has got to be driver involvement at lower speeds. It makes Supercars largely irrelevant (even if they weren't irrelevant because of their girth). Cars like the MX5, the GT86 and the Alpine (and hot hatches like the Clio Trophy 182 and Fiesa ST) are the ones that keen drivers should be welcoming.
Tend to agree. If we didn't have our egos, most of us would be fine driving an MX5. It's more than fast enough for UK roads. Maybe too fast even.I am old enough to know that the sort of speeds I regularly did when I was young are simply unacceptable now - and for the most part are simply impossible because of traffic conditions in the UK. So the emphasis (for keen drivers) has got to be driver involvement at lower speeds. It makes Supercars largely irrelevant (even if they weren't irrelevant because of their girth). Cars like the MX5, the GT86 and the Alpine (and hot hatches like the Clio Trophy 182 and Fiesa ST) are the ones that keen drivers should be welcoming.
Edited by bcr5784 on Monday 29th July 21:04
bimbeano said:
In 10 years the A110 will be ratty ? I have a 9 year old trashed Clio RS with 135,000 km on the clock. Still feels solid like a new car without rattles, let alone it looks ratty. Payed 20K Euros for it when new.
BTW, just went to pick up a friends A110 at the detailer (was in for a ceramic layer), the guy told me that the A110 is at the same level (paintwork and fit) as a Porsche ... mentioning Ferrari and McLaren really aren't in the same league.
But yeah, a Porsche is a Porsche, most people want a Poooorsche ... because it's a Porsche.
It's pronounced Portia dammit!BTW, just went to pick up a friends A110 at the detailer (was in for a ceramic layer), the guy told me that the A110 is at the same level (paintwork and fit) as a Porsche ... mentioning Ferrari and McLaren really aren't in the same league.
But yeah, a Porsche is a Porsche, most people want a Poooorsche ... because it's a Porsche.
Jesting aside, there are many 10 year old Porsches that are ropey and rattly. I don't think any particular brand is immune except for some of the Mercs from the 60s, 70s and 80s. They were practically indestructible!
Edited by Prestonese on Monday 29th July 21:30
bcr5784 said:
I think it is sad if we get sucked into the debate about raw pace - 0-60 (an utterly meaningless statitstic with fast cars) or Nurburgring lap times or the like. The Alpine is avowable about driving enjoyment and to hell with those sort of statistics. The MX5 has been a roaring success on precisely that basis. Unfortunately the Alpine IS a fast car and competing with another fast car (the 718) both of whom have been got sucked into Nurburgring times and the like by the hot hatch manufacturers.
I am old enough to know that the sort of speeds I regularly did when I was young are simply unacceptable now - and for the most part are simply impossible because of traffic conditions in the UK. So the emphasis (for keen drivers) has got to be driver involvement at lower speeds. It makes Supercars largely irrelevant (even if they weren't irrelevant because of their girth). Cars like the MX5, the GT86 and the Alpine (and hot hatches like the Clio Trophy 182 and Fiesa ST) are the ones that keen drivers should be welcoming.
Spot on . I am old enough to know that the sort of speeds I regularly did when I was young are simply unacceptable now - and for the most part are simply impossible because of traffic conditions in the UK. So the emphasis (for keen drivers) has got to be driver involvement at lower speeds. It makes Supercars largely irrelevant (even if they weren't irrelevant because of their girth). Cars like the MX5, the GT86 and the Alpine (and hot hatches like the Clio Trophy 182 and Fiesa ST) are the ones that keen drivers should be welcoming.
Edited by bcr5784 on Monday 29th July 21:04
i'm just rereading Evo issue 26, 992, R8, 570, AMV & Evora.
It was close. but the point that concerned me was that the Evora didn't win against the more polished competition even though it won on the aspects that contribute to 'the thrill of driving'! Despite being a "dynamic reference" and "reconnects you with the things the others purport to other, but actually fall a little short in delivering" it lost because the others were easier to drive and more comfortable. Evo or What Car?
I guess with none of the 5 writers giving the 992 first place they were nervous of PR backlash.
bimbeano said:
drjdog said:
The porsche is a Porsche, and the alpine is a Renault. They are a different class of car. Get the Alpine in 10 years, they'll be cheap and ratty by then. Fingers crossed.
In 10 years the A110 will be ratty ? I have a 9 year old trashed Clio RS with 135,000 km on the clock. Still feels solid like a new car without rattles, let alone it looks ratty. Payed 20K Euros for it when new.BTW, just went to pick up a friends A110 at the detailer (was in for a ceramic layer), the guy told me that the A110 is at the same level (paintwork and fit) as a Porsche ... mentioning Ferrari and McLaren really aren't in the same league.
But yeah, a Porsche is a Porsche, most people want a Poooorsche ... because it's a Porsche.
bcr5784 said:
Danny Milner said:
Certainly on the roads Dan and I tested the pair on, they seemed inseparable in terms of raw pace, even if they delivered that pace in completely different ways.
I think it is sad if we get sucked into the debate about raw pace - 0-60 (an utterly meaningless statitstic with fast cars) or Nurburgring lap times or the like. The Alpine is avowable about driving enjoyment and to hell with those sort of statistics. The MX5 has been a roaring success on precisely that basis. Unfortunately the Alpine IS a fast car and competing with another fast car (the 718) both of whom have been got sucked into Nurburgring times and the like by the hot hatch manufacturers.I am old enough to know that the sort of speeds I regularly did when I was young are simply unacceptable now - and for the most part are simply impossible because of traffic conditions in the UK. So the emphasis (for keen drivers) has got to be driver involvement at lower speeds. It makes Supercars largely irrelevant (even if they weren't irrelevant because of their girth). Cars like the MX5, the GT86 and the Alpine (and hot hatches like the Clio Trophy 182 and Fiesa ST) are the ones that keen drivers should be welcoming.
Edited by bcr5784 on Monday 29th July 21:04
Danny Milner said:
bcr5784 said:
Danny Milner said:
Certainly on the roads Dan and I tested the pair on, they seemed inseparable in terms of raw pace, even if they delivered that pace in completely different ways.
I think it is sad if we get sucked into the debate about raw pace - 0-60 (an utterly meaningless statitstic with fast cars) or Nurburgring lap times or the like. The Alpine is avowable about driving enjoyment and to hell with those sort of statistics. The MX5 has been a roaring success on precisely that basis. Unfortunately the Alpine IS a fast car and competing with another fast car (the 718) both of whom have been got sucked into Nurburgring times and the like by the hot hatch manufacturers.I am old enough to know that the sort of speeds I regularly did when I was young are simply unacceptable now - and for the most part are simply impossible because of traffic conditions in the UK. So the emphasis (for keen drivers) has got to be driver involvement at lower speeds. It makes Supercars largely irrelevant (even if they weren't irrelevant because of their girth). Cars like the MX5, the GT86 and the Alpine (and hot hatches like the Clio Trophy 182 and Fiesa ST) are the ones that keen drivers should be welcoming.
Edited by bcr5784 on Monday 29th July 21:04
Prestonese said:
Danny Milner said:
Certainly on the roads Dan and I tested the pair on, they seemed inseparable in terms of raw pace, even if they delivered that pace in completely different ways.
That may be the case. From the pictures of your article, it seems like the roads your drove on were wider and had more open sweeping turns. That's where the weight advantages would not be as much a factor. Some of the roads I've driven on in both a Cayman and A110 were a bit twister, tighter and hillier. On those roads, most ordinary driving gods like myself would fare better in the Alpine I suspect. There is of course the likelihood that you are both much better at driving manual cars than me. That is part of your jobs after all so I'm completely fine with that!
Edited by Prestonese on Monday 29th July 21:14
Both cars were superb and I’d be very happy to own either of them, and chapeau to Alpine for doing things differently 👍
SidewaysSi said:
How does the Elise stack up against these two new kids?
It (the S1) still steers a lot better. Unfortunately the interior was very low rent and it doesn't feel as well put together as a current Elise by some margin. Whereas I would have said a Caterham of the same vintage was more enjoyable, I think the Elise (220) has made a significant step forward in refinement (can't think of another word -but seems inappropriate) - but, regretably I can't say that of the Caterham.bcr5784 said:
SidewaysSi said:
How does the Elise stack up against these two new kids?
It (the S1) still steers a lot better. Unfortunately the interior was very low rent and it doesn't feel as well put together as a current Elise by some margin. Whereas I would have said a Caterham of the same vintage was more enjoyable, I think the Elise (220) has made a significant step forward in refinement (can't think of another word -but seems inappropriate) - but, regretably I can't say that of the Caterham.SidewaysSi said:
Danny Milner said:
bcr5784 said:
Danny Milner said:
Certainly on the roads Dan and I tested the pair on, they seemed inseparable in terms of raw pace, even if they delivered that pace in completely different ways.
I think it is sad if we get sucked into the debate about raw pace - 0-60 (an utterly meaningless statitstic with fast cars) or Nurburgring lap times or the like. The Alpine is avowable about driving enjoyment and to hell with those sort of statistics. The MX5 has been a roaring success on precisely that basis. Unfortunately the Alpine IS a fast car and competing with another fast car (the 718) both of whom have been got sucked into Nurburgring times and the like by the hot hatch manufacturers.I am old enough to know that the sort of speeds I regularly did when I was young are simply unacceptable now - and for the most part are simply impossible because of traffic conditions in the UK. So the emphasis (for keen drivers) has got to be driver involvement at lower speeds. It makes Supercars largely irrelevant (even if they weren't irrelevant because of their girth). Cars like the MX5, the GT86 and the Alpine (and hot hatches like the Clio Trophy 182 and Fiesa ST) are the ones that keen drivers should be welcoming.
Edited by bcr5784 on Monday 29th July 21:04
It’s much faster across county too, not just because it has more power, but because the ride is so much more composed (we Elise owners have a habit of ‘upgrading’ the suspension, often at the detriment of road performance). ;-)
However it still has nothing like the involvement, reward or steering feel. Which makes me think, given the choice of the Cayman or Alpine, I’d probably take the Exige V6!
Danny Milner said:
Getting back in my Elise to drive home, the first thing that struck me how well put together and civilized the Alpine is. You could happily run it every day and still enjoy its focused sense of purpose when the opportunity arises. Something that I couldn’t say for the Elise.
It’s much faster across county too, not just because it has more power, but because the ride is so much more composed (we Elise owners have a habit of ‘upgrading’ the suspension, often at the detriment of road performance). ;-)
However it still has nothing like the involvement, reward or steering feel. Which makes me think, given the choice of the Cayman or Alpine, I’d probably take the Exige V6!
The electric steering cannot be helping. though I am still intrigued by what Barker wrote It’s much faster across county too, not just because it has more power, but because the ride is so much more composed (we Elise owners have a habit of ‘upgrading’ the suspension, often at the detriment of road performance). ;-)
However it still has nothing like the involvement, reward or steering feel. Which makes me think, given the choice of the Cayman or Alpine, I’d probably take the Exige V6!
https://www.evo.co.uk/porsche/911-gt3/21697/porsch...
..when comparing the evora 430 with the 911 GT3. About how much better the steering felt on the Porsche! Odd as the new Cayman GT4 isn't being lauded for its steering. Makes me wonder if there isn't a market for an Alpine with reduced electric power to the steering. Maybe no power to the wheel when over 30 mph. Hope litchfeld is listening. j
Edited by jl4069 on Monday 29th July 22:59
Danny Milner said:
SidewaysSi said:
Danny Milner said:
bcr5784 said:
Danny Milner said:
Certainly on the roads Dan and I tested the pair on, they seemed inseparable in terms of raw pace, even if they delivered that pace in completely different ways.
I think it is sad if we get sucked into the debate about raw pace - 0-60 (an utterly meaningless statitstic with fast cars) or Nurburgring lap times or the like. The Alpine is avowable about driving enjoyment and to hell with those sort of statistics. The MX5 has been a roaring success on precisely that basis. Unfortunately the Alpine IS a fast car and competing with another fast car (the 718) both of whom have been got sucked into Nurburgring times and the like by the hot hatch manufacturers.I am old enough to know that the sort of speeds I regularly did when I was young are simply unacceptable now - and for the most part are simply impossible because of traffic conditions in the UK. So the emphasis (for keen drivers) has got to be driver involvement at lower speeds. It makes Supercars largely irrelevant (even if they weren't irrelevant because of their girth). Cars like the MX5, the GT86 and the Alpine (and hot hatches like the Clio Trophy 182 and Fiesa ST) are the ones that keen drivers should be welcoming.
Edited by bcr5784 on Monday 29th July 21:04
It’s much faster across county too, not just because it has more power, but because the ride is so much more composed (we Elise owners have a habit of ‘upgrading’ the suspension, often at the detriment of road performance). ;-)
However it still has nothing like the involvement, reward or steering feel. Which makes me think, given the choice of the Cayman or Alpine, I’d probably take the Exige V6!
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