RE: BMW i8 | The Brave Pill
Discussion
MrOrange said:
Not brave pill territory imho.
I bought mine new in March 2016 and, aside from being the cheapest car I’ve run in over 25 years, it’s so good at everything I need it for that I’m not rushing to change it. It’s not a sports or a track car, it’s an extremely capable, very comfortable GT cruiser that can, if required, pick up its skirt and sprint cross-country as quick as you’re ever likely to need.
It’s a proper 2+2, I’ve taken adults in the back but mostly the rear space is used for luggage etc. It still turns heads today and without a squeak or rattle it easily passes for “new”. Tech is just enough; full bluetooth and decent sat nav, HUD, LCD dash, funky interior lighting, all-round external cameras, remote App conditioning, “display key”, and a decent HK stereo.
It’s a lovely serene place to be, and ace at chewing up the A-road miles. It is wide, parking is trickier than it should be, but the dihedral doors only need 18” or so to fully open. Design I like, but not everyone else does, but lack of silly spoilers and dams give it an understated look, despite looking even now if its from the future. Can you tell I’m a fan?
Previous cars include: AM V8V, Cayman, C63, Elise, D4 S8, Celica GT4 and others so a right old mix. Its current stable mates are an ‘05 Outback shed, Panigale S and a CCM flat-tracker. It is the best car I have owned, and I plan to keep it for the foreseeable.
MONEY:
Who do you insure with? I found quotes were twice the price of my V8V.I bought mine new in March 2016 and, aside from being the cheapest car I’ve run in over 25 years, it’s so good at everything I need it for that I’m not rushing to change it. It’s not a sports or a track car, it’s an extremely capable, very comfortable GT cruiser that can, if required, pick up its skirt and sprint cross-country as quick as you’re ever likely to need.
It’s a proper 2+2, I’ve taken adults in the back but mostly the rear space is used for luggage etc. It still turns heads today and without a squeak or rattle it easily passes for “new”. Tech is just enough; full bluetooth and decent sat nav, HUD, LCD dash, funky interior lighting, all-round external cameras, remote App conditioning, “display key”, and a decent HK stereo.
It’s a lovely serene place to be, and ace at chewing up the A-road miles. It is wide, parking is trickier than it should be, but the dihedral doors only need 18” or so to fully open. Design I like, but not everyone else does, but lack of silly spoilers and dams give it an understated look, despite looking even now if its from the future. Can you tell I’m a fan?
Previous cars include: AM V8V, Cayman, C63, Elise, D4 S8, Celica GT4 and others so a right old mix. Its current stable mates are an ‘05 Outback shed, Panigale S and a CCM flat-tracker. It is the best car I have owned, and I plan to keep it for the foreseeable.
MONEY:
- Annual service is usually a few hundred, including the annual MoT
- RFL is zero, insurance is under £400 (56 yrs old, clean license)
- Annual BMW warranty is £950
- Fuel cost is tiny (51 mpg av since new, 20k miles in total)
- One set of rear tyres, original fronts. Original everything else (except door struts, which are replaced every two years).
- Had two “return to dealer” moments, one was a recall for a HV check and one for the (TADT) fuel pressure release issue.
- I paid full list (£115k) minus 10k BMW contrib, minus £5k gov contrib, minus 100% first year WDA (my LLP) so upfront was (net) about £60k (balancing charges apply). Deal was IF 36 months then a balloon that I cleared.
- Depreciation: N/A as I haven’t sold it but it has been fully-depreciated for tax purposes.
- What’s it worth? No idea, but a low mileage, fully factory-warranted, 1-owner, (almost) fully specced car in protonic blue with unmarked turbine wheels and a white/very light grey unmarked interior is a rare thing I would guess.
Edited by MrOrange on Monday 2nd May 18:12
Edited by MrOrange on Monday 2nd May 18:15
I have had an i8 for 7 years and done 83,000 miles and I love it, I also have a NSX which I am now selling and whilst the i8 has not the performance of the NSX it does a great deal in a highly efficient manner
I love the i8 and will I am sure go over 100,000 miles in the next year to 18 months. It has been highly reliable and for me the 2 rear seats are handy. I still think the view from the side, it must rate as one of the nicest looking cars. The power and acceleration is still staggering considering it is coming from a modified mini 1.6 engine. As I have done so many miles in it, I find it so easy to drive
I think the rearview of the car is ruined by too many colours. Black does help get rid of the narrowing effect. On mine, you see the outline of silver on the edges which creates that narrowing effect and yet another colour - all black is far better.
I love the i8 and will I am sure go over 100,000 miles in the next year to 18 months. It has been highly reliable and for me the 2 rear seats are handy. I still think the view from the side, it must rate as one of the nicest looking cars. The power and acceleration is still staggering considering it is coming from a modified mini 1.6 engine. As I have done so many miles in it, I find it so easy to drive
I think the rearview of the car is ruined by too many colours. Black does help get rid of the narrowing effect. On mine, you see the outline of silver on the edges which creates that narrowing effect and yet another colour - all black is far better.
I didn't realise people think electric car battery failure as a thing anymore? Electric cars have been around for a fair while now and the longevity of battery's well proven.
Battery failure in an i8 is very rare and the least of your worries. More common failures are Air con compressor, cabin heater element, Fuel tank sensor, coolant level sensor, tissue paper thin suspension rubber gaiters and other suspension issues. Mines had a £1800 AC compressor replaced in the 4 years I've had it. Is does a sixty mile daily commute and is plugged in once a day. Usually 55-60mpg + electricity costs and battery still shows 13-17miles depending on ambient temp. Cheap tyres and no car tax.
Its a shame the car doesn't record the lecy only miles and how its been driven - a 60Kmile car may have only done 40K petrol miles.. As with all hybrids its a worry not knowing if previous owners had mechanical sympathy and warmed the engine prior to departure. Left to its own, a stone cold ICE will only switch on once 42mph is reached which could be under horrible load.
Main issue is finding somebody other than main stealers to service them.
Battery failure in an i8 is very rare and the least of your worries. More common failures are Air con compressor, cabin heater element, Fuel tank sensor, coolant level sensor, tissue paper thin suspension rubber gaiters and other suspension issues. Mines had a £1800 AC compressor replaced in the 4 years I've had it. Is does a sixty mile daily commute and is plugged in once a day. Usually 55-60mpg + electricity costs and battery still shows 13-17miles depending on ambient temp. Cheap tyres and no car tax.
Its a shame the car doesn't record the lecy only miles and how its been driven - a 60Kmile car may have only done 40K petrol miles.. As with all hybrids its a worry not knowing if previous owners had mechanical sympathy and warmed the engine prior to departure. Left to its own, a stone cold ICE will only switch on once 42mph is reached which could be under horrible load.
Main issue is finding somebody other than main stealers to service them.
carnut360 said:
just drove 1400 miles to the cairngorms and back in my i8 roadster with a few days of fast driving in sport mode....and loved every moment of it, in fact I would say its better than any porsce or ferrari that I own..it really is that good..
snap... what a great trip! & when pushing on the difference between i8 and the M2 Competition that led us around is marginal: the instant electrical grunt helps the i8 keep up with the M2, until its extra width slows you down on the narrow + twisty bits :-)
BMW say 4.2 to 60 for the M2C: Chris Harris did a full test of the launch i8 for Road & Track, and stopped the watch at 3.8 seconds... so they're in the same ballpark on real roads. Plenty quick enough in the real world.
I did 1750 miles in a week, on motorways & playing in the highlands. My longest day was 7 hours at the wheel, without feeling strained: a couple of hours TLC the next day, and the car was nice n shiny for Goodwood's Supercar Sunday breakfast meet.
The i8 is an incredibly capable machine. There might have been quicker & more exotic cars at Goodwood on Sunday, but I'm not sure there's many (any?) that could've managed the combination of quick stuff & motorway miles, thrill & comfort when needed, and 48-50mpg. With butterfly doors.
Everyone's different I guess, but I thought and still think this car is cosmetically a dog's dinner inside and out (I honestly don't believe BMW could design a good looking car if their entire design department's first born childrens' lives depended on it since whoever drew the E38 and E39 were fired for making the rest of them look inept), and no amount of rationalisation will ever make me want to exchange actual money that I've earned for a 3 cylinder engine, since I'm really keen on mechanical stuff and like engines.
A 3 cylinder is something I'd tolerate in an ultra cheap hatchback because it's ultra cheap to run. It's not something I could ever actively want to own, and since daddy didn't give me all my money I need to actively want stuff to spend my money on it.
A 3 cylinder is something I'd tolerate in an ultra cheap hatchback because it's ultra cheap to run. It's not something I could ever actively want to own, and since daddy didn't give me all my money I need to actively want stuff to spend my money on it.
jamieduff1981 said:
Everyone's different I guess, but I thought and still think this car is cosmetically a dog's dinner inside and out (I honestly don't believe BMW could design a good looking car if their entire design department's first born childrens' lives depended on it since whoever drew the E38 and E39 were fired for making the rest of them look inept), and no amount of rationalisation will ever make me want to exchange actual money that I've earned for a 3 cylinder engine, since I'm really keen on mechanical stuff and like engines.
A 3 cylinder is something I'd tolerate in an ultra cheap hatchback because it's ultra cheap to run. It's not something I could ever actively want to own, and since daddy didn't give me all my money I need to actively want stuff to spend my money on it.
Not a GR Yaris fan then, eh?A 3 cylinder is something I'd tolerate in an ultra cheap hatchback because it's ultra cheap to run. It's not something I could ever actively want to own, and since daddy didn't give me all my money I need to actively want stuff to spend my money on it.
Shnozz said:
Who do you insure with? I found quotes were twice the price of my V8V.
Admiral.“To keep you insured and to give you peace of mind we will automatically renew your policy on 01/03/2022 based on the information you have supplied, unless you let us know otherwise.
The renewal premium we offer will be no greater than the equivalent price that we would offer to you as a new customer. Click here to find out more information.
Cars 3
Registration This Year's Premium
NISSAN QASHQAI - YE69XXX £253.55
BMW I8 - D3XXX £337.01
SUBARU OUTBACK - YT55XXX £163.52”
Whenever I see one of these on the road they don't make me think 'wow, nice car mate', I think 'no thanks' or words to that effect.
When these first came out they were absolutely stunning but that seemed to wear off relatively quickly.
On the battery pack front, we are repeatedly told that battery prices are coming down. Well they might be for the manufacturers, but if you want to replace even a MHEV battery pack as an individual you've got to be ready to feel the blood draining from your face when you're told what the bill is. And that's before Solid State batteries hit the scene.
Because of this, EVs will surely depreciate like a stone after about 5 to 6 years.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.leicestermercury....
When these first came out they were absolutely stunning but that seemed to wear off relatively quickly.
On the battery pack front, we are repeatedly told that battery prices are coming down. Well they might be for the manufacturers, but if you want to replace even a MHEV battery pack as an individual you've got to be ready to feel the blood draining from your face when you're told what the bill is. And that's before Solid State batteries hit the scene.
Because of this, EVs will surely depreciate like a stone after about 5 to 6 years.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.leicestermercury....
Wadeski said:
jamieduff1981 said:
Everyone's different I guess, but I thought and still think this car is cosmetically a dog's dinner inside and out (I honestly don't believe BMW could design a good looking car if their entire design department's first born childrens' lives depended on it since whoever drew the E38 and E39 were fired for making the rest of them look inept), and no amount of rationalisation will ever make me want to exchange actual money that I've earned for a 3 cylinder engine, since I'm really keen on mechanical stuff and like engines.
A 3 cylinder is something I'd tolerate in an ultra cheap hatchback because it's ultra cheap to run. It's not something I could ever actively want to own, and since daddy didn't give me all my money I need to actively want stuff to spend my money on it.
Not a GR Yaris fan then, eh?A 3 cylinder is something I'd tolerate in an ultra cheap hatchback because it's ultra cheap to run. It's not something I could ever actively want to own, and since daddy didn't give me all my money I need to actively want stuff to spend my money on it.
Cobnapint said:
Whenever I see one of these on the road they don't make me think 'wow, nice car mate', I think 'no thanks' or words to that effect.
When these first came out they were absolutely stunning but that seemed to wear off relatively quickly.
On the battery pack front, we are repeatedly told that battery prices are coming down. Well they might be for the manufacturers, but if you want to replace even a MHEV battery pack as an individual you've got to be ready to feel the blood draining from your face when you're told what the bill is. And that's before Solid State batteries hit the scene.
Because of this, EVs will surely depreciate like a stone after about 5 to 6 years.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.leicestermercury....
Whereas the engine in say an M3 they just give away when you need a new one.......When these first came out they were absolutely stunning but that seemed to wear off relatively quickly.
On the battery pack front, we are repeatedly told that battery prices are coming down. Well they might be for the manufacturers, but if you want to replace even a MHEV battery pack as an individual you've got to be ready to feel the blood draining from your face when you're told what the bill is. And that's before Solid State batteries hit the scene.
Because of this, EVs will surely depreciate like a stone after about 5 to 6 years.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.leicestermercury....
Expensive cars have expensive bits shocker
Max_Torque said:
Whereas the engine in say an M3 they just give away when you need a new one.......
Expensive cars have expensive bits shocker
But even 'cheap' EV cars have expensive bits now. An expensive bit that is more or less 100% guaranteed to need replacement around it's 9th birthday.Expensive cars have expensive bits shocker
This is going to adversely affect the resale value of cars approaching that age - big time.
Look at the story above, that was just a small battery pack in a MHEV. Imagine the cost of a full EV pack. And even then you've got to hope that pack can still be produced.
MrOrange said:
Shnozz said:
Who do you insure with? I found quotes were twice the price of my V8V.
Admiral.“To keep you insured and to give you peace of mind we will automatically renew your policy on 01/03/2022 based on the information you have supplied, unless you let us know otherwise.
The renewal premium we offer will be no greater than the equivalent price that we would offer to you as a new customer. Click here to find out more information.
Cars 3
Registration This Year's Premium
NISSAN QASHQAI - YE69XXX £253.55
BMW I8 - D3XXX £337.01
SUBARU OUTBACK - YT55XXX £163.52”
Cobnapint said:
But even 'cheap' EV cars have expensive bits now. An expensive bit that is more or less 100% guaranteed to need replacement around it's 9th birthday.
This is going to adversely affect the resale value of cars approaching that age - big time.
Look at the story above, that was just a small battery pack in a MHEV. Imagine the cost of a full EV pack. And even then you've got to hope that pack can still be produced.
That Merc story is alarming - if the piece is to believed it's not the only Merc suffering that failure, and an unsympathetic manufacturer.This is going to adversely affect the resale value of cars approaching that age - big time.
Look at the story above, that was just a small battery pack in a MHEV. Imagine the cost of a full EV pack. And even then you've got to hope that pack can still be produced.
The i8 uses i3 batteries - with the same 8 year/ 100,000 miles, 70% battery capacity commitment. So if that Merc were a BMW, the manufacturer would be taking responsibility for the battery.
And it's not the norm for batteries to fail - here's a roundup https://www.bmwblog.com/2017/04/24/bmw-i3-long-ter...
Honest John sums up... "We've not had many reports of battery life issues with the i3. BMW has previously said that its batteries are designed to last as long as the vehicle, quoting a lifespan of 15 years and beyond. It also guarantees the i3 batteries will have a minimum of 70% capacity after 8 years or 100,000 miles. I wouldn't be too concerned about the battery life, particularly as you'll save money in other areas such as fuel and servicing."
https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/askhj/answer/112542/w...
One of the attractions of the i8 is that it's using i3 batteries - so there's more of them about, which one day in the future will mean there's more replacement kit around, and more people who know how to fit them. & they'll be better batteries - even a couple of years ago Lion Smart could treble the range of an i3
https://www.autoblog.com/2018/09/06/bmw-i3-100kwh-...
Cobnapint said:
But even 'cheap' EV cars have expensive bits now. An expensive bit that is more or less 100% guaranteed to need replacement around it's 9th birthday.
This is going to adversely affect the resale value of cars approaching that age - big time.
Look at the story above, that was just a small battery pack in a MHEV. Imagine the cost of a full EV pack. And even then you've got to hope that pack can still be produced.
Again this ^^ total bobbins:This is going to adversely affect the resale value of cars approaching that age - big time.
Look at the story above, that was just a small battery pack in a MHEV. Imagine the cost of a full EV pack. And even then you've got to hope that pack can still be produced.
A typical ICE passenger car is explicitly designed for a life of 150,000 miles and 10 years
A typical BEV passenger car is explicitly designed for a life of 150,000 miles and 10 years
Lets be clear (again because people seem to be hard of thinking on this point)
The batteries in a BEV wear out each and every time you use them
The moving parts in an ICE wear out each and every time you use them
The IS no difference. Drive an ICE carefully (allow it to warm up, service it, don't hammer the gear shifts etc) and you'll like be able to have the car exceed it's design life by a significant margin. Drive it poorely (thrash it from cold, never service it, hammer every gear change etc) and chances are it will fail before it's design life
An BEV is no different
This is because both products are EXPLICILTY designed and engineered for an average life that is the same
A nine year old ICE with say 120,000 miles on the clock hass depreciated by a huge marging precisely because as it gets old (and gets closer too or exceeds it's design life) the probability of failure increases.
The big difference however is that the significant wearing part in a BEV (the battery cells) are very easy to monitor for State of Health, and being solid state components degrade non catastrophically and in a controlled manner. And ICE tends to keep working (although exhaust emissions and performance are often absolutely terrible) then suddenly and catastrophically fails, and that failure is very difficult to either predict or monitor. With a BEV, you can plug in a cheap scan tool and record precisely how worn your cells are. heck, most BEVs even show you on the dash!
And just because a battery is worn doesn'y mean it is useless. An ICE engine with knocking bearings or a failed head gasket is worthless, a low range BEV isn't. There are a huge number of people who drive small distances each and every day, and a BEV with a worn battery that still performs in every way as new other than its shorter range is valuable. And that's before we get to the value of batteries for second life projects. Not long ago, you could buy a £3k gen 1 leaf, and drive it into a lamp post at 20mph and the thing was still worth £2.5k just for the battery on ebay.......
Today, there are many aftermarket firms specialising in selling second hand engines and in refurbishing those engines etc. There is no reason they can't sell s/h cells or refurbish them. In fact, again being simple, solid state devices, it's far easy to refurbish a BEV battery than rebuild a complex modern ICE
Max_Torque said:
Again this ^^ total bobbins: ... and loads of sensible stuff
I mostly agree, but the big worry for those of us who are happy to run older, used cars is the current "requires a complete battery pack" issue.If my head gasket or rod bearings go tits up on my E46 M3, I can replace those parts as distinct items items within the powertrain. The cars continues to live thereafter. Mine is only on 80k miles, so well within its design mileage, if not age.
With PHEVs/BEVs, there is a view (as exemplified by the chap in the link posted above where a Merc PHEV worth £12,750 was quoted £15,000 for an entire battery replacement) that is not the same comparison.
My view as a layman, and I'm happy to be educated on this, is that we're currently at a level of tech where "failed batteries" actually means "a few failed cells in a battery with some better than others". Technically, just the failed cells could be replaced to extend the life of the battery but because of the logistics involved manufacturers do not want to repair the battery - it is complete replacement or nothing.
Similar with my iPhones. I have had ones come to 'end of life' because they won't hold a charge, it's just a duff battery, the rest of the phone is fine. Buy a replacement battery off eBay and 15 minutes watching a YouTube how-to then allows me to replace that and extend the phone's life. OK, it's a little bit fiddly, but it's totally do-able for the inexperienced person who isn't a mobile phone technician. You cannot do the same with the battery in a BEV/PHEV currently, for safety and logistics reasons, so the ICE comparison given is a bit of a moot one.
PurpleTurtle said:
Max_Torque said:
Again this ^^ total bobbins: ... and loads of sensible stuff
I mostly agree, but the big worry for those of us who are happy to run older, used cars is the current "requires a complete battery pack" issue.If my head gasket or rod bearings go tits up on my E46 M3, I can replace those parts as distinct items items within the powertrain. The cars continues to live thereafter. Mine is only on 80k miles, so well within its design mileage, if not age.
With PHEVs/BEVs, there is a view (as exemplified by the chap in the link posted above where a Merc PHEV worth £12,750 was quoted £15,000 for an entire battery replacement) that is not the same comparison.
My view as a layman, and I'm happy to be educated on this, is that we're currently at a level of tech where "failed batteries" actually means "a few failed cells in a battery with some better than others". Technically, just the failed cells could be replaced to extend the life of the battery but because of the logistics involved manufacturers do not want to repair the battery - it is complete replacement or nothing.
Similar with my iPhones. I have had ones come to 'end of life' because they won't hold a charge, it's just a duff battery, the rest of the phone is fine. Buy a replacement battery off eBay and 15 minutes watching a YouTube how-to then allows me to replace that and extend the phone's life. OK, it's a little bit fiddly, but it's totally do-able for the inexperienced person who isn't a mobile phone technician. You cannot do the same with the battery in a BEV/PHEV currently, for safety and logistics reasons, so the ICE comparison given is a bit of a moot one.
Prius hybrids have been running around for 20 years, and everyone said the batteries would eventually make them paperweights, but they have proven very durable and long-lasting. And that's Y2K tech.
Catastrophic battery failure (costing thousands) is really no different to catastrophic engine failure (costing thousands). It sucks for the person it happens to, but its rare, and the brands that suffer it more will get a bad reputation compared to the ones that do better.
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