RE: Vote for the best saloon of the last 25 years!
Discussion
Jon_S_Rally said:
I can see the E39 M5 winning, as people seem to adore it
It's not even necessarily that people adore it, it's just that almost everyone will include it as part of their 3, as it is a significant car and widely acknowledged as pretty good and pretty much the definitive super saloon.I suspect none of the others will have that draw, some will vote for Lexus, some Scoobys, Mercedes, Audi, Jag, Alfa, a couple of us idiots voted VXR8, but all that does is water down the votes for those cars, as for many even if they vote GC8 Impreza and VXR8, they'll probably tick E39 M5 as well, and that's how it'll (probably quite deservedly) win.
What would be interesting is I bet if you made it so everyone only got 1 vote the result might well be different.
I think one should start with what characteristics make a great saloon. So I'm throwing a few points out:
-- A proper saloon should have space for four people. So small saloons are pointless because they are in reality 2+2s and not full 4 seaters, especially taking into account luggage and the influence the weight of 4 pax + luggage has on a car. This means a rather large (and thus heavy) car to start. (Those who want lither and more nimble cars should look at coupés.)
-- Double-wishbone suspension all around, or in the front plus multilink in the rear for smooth AND well controlled suspension. And as much as I too like the BMW E39 that deletes it from the list.
-- All-wheel drive. Usually kills dynamics and feel, but in a large and heavy car pretty much the only way to go.
-- Automatique gearbox, since hand shifting a high powered 2-ton car is no fun.
-- So, concrete models: Audi D3/4/5. BMW F01/G11. And as a distant non-competitive option the Jaguar X351.
-- A proper saloon should have space for four people. So small saloons are pointless because they are in reality 2+2s and not full 4 seaters, especially taking into account luggage and the influence the weight of 4 pax + luggage has on a car. This means a rather large (and thus heavy) car to start. (Those who want lither and more nimble cars should look at coupés.)
-- Double-wishbone suspension all around, or in the front plus multilink in the rear for smooth AND well controlled suspension. And as much as I too like the BMW E39 that deletes it from the list.
-- All-wheel drive. Usually kills dynamics and feel, but in a large and heavy car pretty much the only way to go.
-- Automatique gearbox, since hand shifting a high powered 2-ton car is no fun.
-- So, concrete models: Audi D3/4/5. BMW F01/G11. And as a distant non-competitive option the Jaguar X351.
SturdyHSV said:
Jon_S_Rally said:
I can see the E39 M5 winning, as people seem to adore it
It's not even necessarily that people adore it, it's just that almost everyone will include it as part of their 3, as it is a significant car and widely acknowledged as pretty good and pretty much the definitive super saloon.
pycraft said:
trevalvole said:
It does seem to be, with an exception or two, entirely performance saloons or estates. There's an argument to say that something like a 320d that is quick, economical and reasonably affordable, is more of an achievement than an M3.
I'm not sure you're quite with the ethos of PH. It's like car magazines; the "best saloon" voted for in Evo would almost certainly not be the best saloon in What Car?. I would suggest that PH leans Evo on that scale. I personally do not care in a car can tow a caravan or transport a large dog. I must bite my lip and tolerate back doors for the transportation of elderly relatives, whereas I would rather something with two doors that is designed to scythe through swathes of southern English b-roads. I hope this competition will be judged similarly. Rapide for me.
Part of the reason for my post is that I was struggling to compare a Phantom VII to a C63. If it is just a category for performance saloons, then why not call it that?
Midshipracer said:
This vote should really include all saloons from say the 80s. There haven't been that many.
This is because the W124 AMG Hammer should be in up for consideration.
Anyway I vote for
Lexus GSF
W204 C63
E39 M5
The specific aim of the poll is saloons available in the last 25 years, to mark the 25th anniversary of PH…This is because the W124 AMG Hammer should be in up for consideration.
Anyway I vote for
Lexus GSF
W204 C63
E39 M5
Midshipracer said:
This vote should really include all saloons from say the 80s. There haven't been that many.
This is because the W124 AMG Hammer should be in up for consideration.
Anyway I vote for
Lexus GSF
W204 C63
E39 M5
Why would a poll for the best saloon of the last 25 years include cars from the '80s?This is because the W124 AMG Hammer should be in up for consideration.
Anyway I vote for
Lexus GSF
W204 C63
E39 M5
Really tough one this. I guess it's the influence of 90's and early 00's BTCC and WRC but for me when anyone says 'car' I immediately think of a three box saloon. It's the thing I always aspired to. Hot hatches are fun but I have always and will always be a saloon man.
Cutting this list down to three is really, really - really - hard.
In the end I went Giulia QF. Not only is the Alfa we've wanted and hoped for for years, but it's so far ahead of any of the recent alternatives and past masters dynamically it's not even funny - even with the auto only gearbox. If you are obsessed with infotainment you can suggest it's not great, but you're wrong, and if you're looking at cars like this for their infotainment you need to give your head a wobble. For me, the zenith of the sports saloon - it will be all downhill from here (and yes, i'm biased, but it's still true).
BMW typifies the sport saloon and I can't have a vote without one, so the next category for me is 'what BMW'. This was hard. The recent ones have left me cold, so that's the F90 and G80 out. The E60 would have been an absolute shoe in because of that stunning engine and wonderful handling, plus to my eyes it still looks stunning nearly 20 years on. However, the silly gearbox is a PITA to use and you couldn't get a manual. That leaves us with the E39 and two M3's... really tough call for me but in the end went E46 - however could easily have been either of the others. For me the E90 is the better car, but it's less 'pure' than the E46 - and the E46 I found more engaging to drive than the E39 which was incredibly good but felt slightly blunted by comparison.
That leaves quite a lot. I ummed and aaahed plenty. The rally specials need a category all of their own imho - growing up as a huge fan of the WRC I could make a huge argument for any of them. Ultimately of them I'd have to have gone for Evo VI - love an Impreza but the Evo just felt more special in the day and still gets the pulse going now. The *63 Mercs are all very good, but a blunt and angry instrument compared with the sharpened scalpel of a lot on this list - same true for the VXR8. Audi's are boring. The others are all solid suggestions (aside from the Mondeo, you want the ST200 rather than the successor, which never managed to feel anything like as special) but I ended up going for the ATR. Incredibly engaging to drive, stunningly capable and very under-rated. Felt like a proper race car for the road.
I'd want at least a top 5 here personally, maybe even a top 7.... Alfa, E46, ATR, Evo VI, E39, GC8 Scooby, XFR. Maybe. But then... GAH. This is hard.
TLDR - Giulia wins.
Cutting this list down to three is really, really - really - hard.
In the end I went Giulia QF. Not only is the Alfa we've wanted and hoped for for years, but it's so far ahead of any of the recent alternatives and past masters dynamically it's not even funny - even with the auto only gearbox. If you are obsessed with infotainment you can suggest it's not great, but you're wrong, and if you're looking at cars like this for their infotainment you need to give your head a wobble. For me, the zenith of the sports saloon - it will be all downhill from here (and yes, i'm biased, but it's still true).
BMW typifies the sport saloon and I can't have a vote without one, so the next category for me is 'what BMW'. This was hard. The recent ones have left me cold, so that's the F90 and G80 out. The E60 would have been an absolute shoe in because of that stunning engine and wonderful handling, plus to my eyes it still looks stunning nearly 20 years on. However, the silly gearbox is a PITA to use and you couldn't get a manual. That leaves us with the E39 and two M3's... really tough call for me but in the end went E46 - however could easily have been either of the others. For me the E90 is the better car, but it's less 'pure' than the E46 - and the E46 I found more engaging to drive than the E39 which was incredibly good but felt slightly blunted by comparison.
That leaves quite a lot. I ummed and aaahed plenty. The rally specials need a category all of their own imho - growing up as a huge fan of the WRC I could make a huge argument for any of them. Ultimately of them I'd have to have gone for Evo VI - love an Impreza but the Evo just felt more special in the day and still gets the pulse going now. The *63 Mercs are all very good, but a blunt and angry instrument compared with the sharpened scalpel of a lot on this list - same true for the VXR8. Audi's are boring. The others are all solid suggestions (aside from the Mondeo, you want the ST200 rather than the successor, which never managed to feel anything like as special) but I ended up going for the ATR. Incredibly engaging to drive, stunningly capable and very under-rated. Felt like a proper race car for the road.
I'd want at least a top 5 here personally, maybe even a top 7.... Alfa, E46, ATR, Evo VI, E39, GC8 Scooby, XFR. Maybe. But then... GAH. This is hard.
TLDR - Giulia wins.
Edited by kuiper on Tuesday 28th March 10:25
Jon_S_Rally said:
Midshipracer said:
This vote should really include all saloons from say the 80s. There haven't been that many.
This is because the W124 AMG Hammer should be in up for consideration.
Anyway I vote for
Lexus GSF
W204 C63
E39 M5
Why would a poll for the best saloon of the last 25 years include cars from the '80s?This is because the W124 AMG Hammer should be in up for consideration.
Anyway I vote for
Lexus GSF
W204 C63
E39 M5
E39 M5 as great as it was and still is, it was an evolution, of M5s before, the same with AMG and RS models.
cerb4.5lee said:
The E39 M5 just seemed to get pretty much everything right for me. It was a wonderful shape that pretty much everyone loved, plus even the base E39 5 series was a lovely thing to drive/sit in, and it was very highly regarded in the motoring press. Then it had the 4.9 litre V8 for the noise(it was quite torquey for an NA as well), plus it had a 3 pedal manual gearbox to keep all the old farts like me happy too!
It covers all roads and bases very well, only the narrower B roads can be a bit tight but it is the epitome of a car that shrinks around you.Crucially it's still got a manual when you really want to enjoy yourself, something I maintain paddles can't touch.
cerb4.5lee said:
SturdyHSV said:
Jon_S_Rally said:
I can see the E39 M5 winning, as people seem to adore it
It's not even necessarily that people adore it, it's just that almost everyone will include it as part of their 3, as it is a significant car and widely acknowledged as pretty good and pretty much the definitive super saloon.I still prefer the M5 that replaced it but really struggling to define the E39 as anything other than an epic car. It's just that the E60, especially when fitted with an Eisenmann exhaust as my friends was, was even more epic imo.
I voted:
Alfa Giulia QF - easy one
BMW e46 M3 - actually a coupe, and I nearly voted for the E39 but when I asked myself which one I'd rather have, it was the m3.
VXR8 - has the right ingredients. Although I'm not a fan of the earlier cars, the later ones look much nicer to me.
Close calls for both the E39 M5 and the Jag XFR
Alfa Giulia QF - easy one
BMW e46 M3 - actually a coupe, and I nearly voted for the E39 but when I asked myself which one I'd rather have, it was the m3.
VXR8 - has the right ingredients. Although I'm not a fan of the earlier cars, the later ones look much nicer to me.
Close calls for both the E39 M5 and the Jag XFR
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