RE: KTM X-Bow Production Halted
Discussion
stephen300o said:
kelk said:
I have driven one on both the roads and at Silverstone. My thoughts prior to potentially putting a deposit down were:
1) I love the looks but there are Marmite
2) I'm fairly tall (6'2" and all my height is in my legs) and my other half's Caterham just doesn't fit so the X-bow was a refreshing potential alternative
3) I like lightweight cars a lot
4) I bought into the whole ethos of it
5) Original price seemed reasonable for what we would potential get as custoemrs
After I drove it
1) Still love the looks
2) It understeered massively on normal set-up and to have the fully adjustable was going to mean more ££££
3) The steering rack was too long, so it took too large an input for an agile move
4) The track set-up one was much better so it flawed the standard
5) Not enough noise and drama from the engine / exhaust
6) The car I was willing to pay for was about £15 - £20k more than the original price
In the end I'd love one for the looks still, but having driven it, it needed a few good revisions to be the car I wanted and it needed to be far far closer to the original price
It doesn't come with fully adjustable suspension as standard?!1) I love the looks but there are Marmite
2) I'm fairly tall (6'2" and all my height is in my legs) and my other half's Caterham just doesn't fit so the X-bow was a refreshing potential alternative
3) I like lightweight cars a lot
4) I bought into the whole ethos of it
5) Original price seemed reasonable for what we would potential get as custoemrs
After I drove it
1) Still love the looks
2) It understeered massively on normal set-up and to have the fully adjustable was going to mean more ££££
3) The steering rack was too long, so it took too large an input for an agile move
4) The track set-up one was much better so it flawed the standard
5) Not enough noise and drama from the engine / exhaust
6) The car I was willing to pay for was about £15 - £20k more than the original price
In the end I'd love one for the looks still, but having driven it, it needed a few good revisions to be the car I wanted and it needed to be far far closer to the original price
I'm gutted that I didn't fall head over heels for it as I would have been owner no.24
kelk said:
stephen300o said:
kelk said:
I have driven one on both the roads and at Silverstone. My thoughts prior to potentially putting a deposit down were:
1) I love the looks but there are Marmite
2) I'm fairly tall (6'2" and all my height is in my legs) and my other half's Caterham just doesn't fit so the X-bow was a refreshing potential alternative
3) I like lightweight cars a lot
4) I bought into the whole ethos of it
5) Original price seemed reasonable for what we would potential get as custoemrs
After I drove it
1) Still love the looks
2) It understeered massively on normal set-up and to have the fully adjustable was going to mean more ££££
3) The steering rack was too long, so it took too large an input for an agile move
4) The track set-up one was much better so it flawed the standard
5) Not enough noise and drama from the engine / exhaust
6) The car I was willing to pay for was about £15 - £20k more than the original price
In the end I'd love one for the looks still, but having driven it, it needed a few good revisions to be the car I wanted and it needed to be far far closer to the original price
It doesn't come with fully adjustable suspension as standard?!1) I love the looks but there are Marmite
2) I'm fairly tall (6'2" and all my height is in my legs) and my other half's Caterham just doesn't fit so the X-bow was a refreshing potential alternative
3) I like lightweight cars a lot
4) I bought into the whole ethos of it
5) Original price seemed reasonable for what we would potential get as custoemrs
After I drove it
1) Still love the looks
2) It understeered massively on normal set-up and to have the fully adjustable was going to mean more ££££
3) The steering rack was too long, so it took too large an input for an agile move
4) The track set-up one was much better so it flawed the standard
5) Not enough noise and drama from the engine / exhaust
6) The car I was willing to pay for was about £15 - £20k more than the original price
In the end I'd love one for the looks still, but having driven it, it needed a few good revisions to be the car I wanted and it needed to be far far closer to the original price
I'm gutted that I didn't fall head over heels for it as I would have been owner no.24
ScottL said:
Not sure how you come to that conclusion. The radical is non road legal out and out racing car in an extreme state of tune with life'd components as opposed to service intervals.
Anyone looking to acquire a Atom 3 300 would need to budget £40k and I hear it's not hard to add another £10k or more in cost options. £50K will buy you an upgraded X-Bow.
So really not much of a gap is it.
You can get road legal radicals.Anyone looking to acquire a Atom 3 300 would need to budget £40k and I hear it's not hard to add another £10k or more in cost options. £50K will buy you an upgraded X-Bow.
So really not much of a gap is it.
The Atom 245 would be more of a comparison to a standard X-bow. Modified cars are not a basis for comparison.
Ben
ScottL said:
What's amazing about the X-Bow is that even at road practical ride heights it still generates way more downforce than anything else with number plates (eg 200kgs at 120 mph). If you drop it right down it doubles the downforce.
As a comparison the new 2010 Lotus Exige Cup and the 997 GT3 Mk II generate less than 25% of the downforce even though they run lower ride heights. Only the new 458 Italia gets close - it has around 70% of the X-Bow's downforce.
And yet, despite all this your chum GregL (hmm, ScottL, GregL, just the same people with interests in selling the XBOW as that is their business ?) says...As a comparison the new 2010 Lotus Exige Cup and the 997 GT3 Mk II generate less than 25% of the downforce even though they run lower ride heights. Only the new 458 Italia gets close - it has around 70% of the X-Bow's downforce.
"Also beat a Caterham R400 by 1.5 seconds in the first sprint I competed in for 18 months."
...over 90 seconds that is less that 2% difference. Over something that is not even a new R400. And as another of your chums, this time an illiterate 18 year old, says, something that you can see all the welds and everything (because that matters, clearly). A 50 year old design !
The thing with downforce is that
a) It is just drag.
b) Decreases to the square of speed.
So in most corners, you are getting pretty much none. You just have to contend with a lardy Audi engine, in a lardy body.
Which is why your mate (or is it you ?) only JUST manages to creep ahead of a second rate, welded up non-downforce "crate" by a fraction of a second
This is like Usain Bolt giving it the big "I am" having just edged it from Linford Christie, who is still wearing his dancing shoes.
What is the phrase ? "All the gear, no idea". Those shiny-shiny helmets give it away.
Here is to the ultimate demise of KTM. Seems like only w
kers have them. Not an especially coherent post Noger but I'll do my best to clarify a few points for you.
First of all I have no vested interest in selling X-Bow's. I bought one and I use it on road and track regularly. I drive lots of other cars and I'm happy to share my views on the relative merits in the hope that others might find some value in it. I try to make a positive contribution.
With regards to weight, if you factor in structural integrity, torsional rigidity and crash structure/protection you'll see the X-Bow is a state of the art design. For example the torsional rigidity value is 35,000 Nm/deg. To put that in perspective an S2 Exige is 10,500 Nm/deg. That's not to say the X-Bow is better, simply that for it's weight, it's exceptional rigid, strong and safe.
Your comments on downforce are misinformed. They are of course related but downforce is not the same as drag. The X-Bow starts developing meaningful downforce at around 50mph (approx 60kgs). By the time you're doing 100mph it's really obvious as the steering weight increases and the car is deeply keyed into the tarmac -incredible grip, amazingly neutral.
I can't comments on Greg's performance in sprint races but in my experience Caterham drivers are friendly, well mannered, genuine car enthusiasts - many of them are very skilled drivers.
First of all I have no vested interest in selling X-Bow's. I bought one and I use it on road and track regularly. I drive lots of other cars and I'm happy to share my views on the relative merits in the hope that others might find some value in it. I try to make a positive contribution.
With regards to weight, if you factor in structural integrity, torsional rigidity and crash structure/protection you'll see the X-Bow is a state of the art design. For example the torsional rigidity value is 35,000 Nm/deg. To put that in perspective an S2 Exige is 10,500 Nm/deg. That's not to say the X-Bow is better, simply that for it's weight, it's exceptional rigid, strong and safe.
Your comments on downforce are misinformed. They are of course related but downforce is not the same as drag. The X-Bow starts developing meaningful downforce at around 50mph (approx 60kgs). By the time you're doing 100mph it's really obvious as the steering weight increases and the car is deeply keyed into the tarmac -incredible grip, amazingly neutral.
I can't comments on Greg's performance in sprint races but in my experience Caterham drivers are friendly, well mannered, genuine car enthusiasts - many of them are very skilled drivers.
Edited by ScottL on Tuesday 1st September 00:10
The R500 still remains at 5th on the Top Gear Power lap board, with only £200.000 plus supercars ahead of it, not bad for a Circa £38.0000 car first introduced over 50 years ago. Still the only sportscar to have competed in a Grand Prix. That seems to be a remarkable achievement for any car.
The original and the best!
The original and the best!
k-ink said:
However I suspect nobody wants to risk £80k worth of carbon fibre panels on a track day! Especially when you can have just as much fun for under half the cost.
Couldn't be further from the truth. Every single X-Bow owner I know regularly tracks their car. There are a bunch of X-Bows booked for Rockingham with Bookatrack on Saturday 12th. Come along if you fancy a passenger lap.With regards to pricing, X-Bow's start at around £45K. Caterham R500's and Ariel Atom 300's are around £40k. You can spend a lot more if you go wild with cost options but that's true of most cars these days.
k-ink said:
The X Bow is probably the best car in the world for posing in the summer. I'd love one just for that reason alone!
However I suspect nobody wants to risk £80k worth of carbon fibre panels on a track day! Especially when you can have just as much fun for under half the cost.
Go and buy a ferrari, or something Italian. The X-Bow's for track work, not posing. Just a bloody good bonus that it looks great too!!However I suspect nobody wants to risk £80k worth of carbon fibre panels on a track day! Especially when you can have just as much fun for under half the cost.
ScottL said:
k-ink said:
However I suspect nobody wants to risk £80k worth of carbon fibre panels on a track day! Especially when you can have just as much fun for under half the cost.
Couldn't be further from the truth. Every single X-Bow owner I know regularly tracks their car. There are a bunch of X-Bows booked for Rockingham with Bookatrack on Saturday 12th. Come along if you fancy a passenger lap.With regards to pricing, X-Bow's start at around £45K. Caterham R500's and Ariel Atom 300's are around £40k. You can spend a lot more if you go wild with cost options but that's true of most cars these days.
From my experience of driving both A245 (with a few upgrades bringing cost to c£35k) and KTM (tuned to c340bhp by AMD with lowered ride height by Carlin - total cost of car plus mods c£85k) I think that they were roughly equivalent in pace, albeit delivered in a very different way.
I'd also say that IMHO the Atom is way more fun to drive. Lap times are one thing, but managing the sheer uncontrollability of the Atom will give you a real grin! In contrast the KTM is so well planted it feels like any old numpty could drive it!
the atomic punk said:
Atom 3 245 starts at £29k.
From my experience of driving both A245 (with a few upgrades bringing cost to c£35k) and KTM (tuned to c340bhp by AMD with lowered ride height by Carlin - total cost of car plus mods c£85k) I think that they were roughly equivalent in pace, albeit delivered in a very different way.
I'd also say that IMHO the Atom is way more fun to drive. Lap times are one thing, but managing the sheer uncontrollability of the Atom will give you a real grin! In contrast the KTM is so well planted it feels like any old numpty could drive it!
The X-Bow you refer cost it's owner less than £50k including upgrades. I don't agree the cars are roughly equivalent on pace. In my experience the same driver would be at least 2 seconds per mile quicker in the X-Bow on most circuits. But hey as you point out it's not all about lap times and both cars are a hoot compared to heavy GT cars.From my experience of driving both A245 (with a few upgrades bringing cost to c£35k) and KTM (tuned to c340bhp by AMD with lowered ride height by Carlin - total cost of car plus mods c£85k) I think that they were roughly equivalent in pace, albeit delivered in a very different way.
I'd also say that IMHO the Atom is way more fun to drive. Lap times are one thing, but managing the sheer uncontrollability of the Atom will give you a real grin! In contrast the KTM is so well planted it feels like any old numpty could drive it!
I do agree the Atom is great fun to drive - all the lightweight cars are a joy on track. Choice is a good thing. Some people love the exuberant nature of the Atom, while others prefer the precision of the X-Bow. Extracting the full potential from either take talent and practice.
ScottL said:
the atomic punk said:
Atom 3 245 starts at £29k.
From my experience of driving both A245 (with a few upgrades bringing cost to c£35k) and KTM (tuned to c340bhp by AMD with lowered ride height by Carlin - total cost of car plus mods c£85k) I think that they were roughly equivalent in pace, albeit delivered in a very different way.
I'd also say that IMHO the Atom is way more fun to drive. Lap times are one thing, but managing the sheer uncontrollability of the Atom will give you a real grin! In contrast the KTM is so well planted it feels like any old numpty could drive it!
The X-Bow you refer cost it's owner less than £50k including upgrades. I don't agree the cars are roughly equivalent on pace. In my experience the same driver would be at least 2 seconds per mile quicker in the X-Bow on most circuits. But hey as you point out it's not all about lap times and both cars are a hoot compared to heavy GT cars.From my experience of driving both A245 (with a few upgrades bringing cost to c£35k) and KTM (tuned to c340bhp by AMD with lowered ride height by Carlin - total cost of car plus mods c£85k) I think that they were roughly equivalent in pace, albeit delivered in a very different way.
I'd also say that IMHO the Atom is way more fun to drive. Lap times are one thing, but managing the sheer uncontrollability of the Atom will give you a real grin! In contrast the KTM is so well planted it feels like any old numpty could drive it!
I do agree the Atom is great fun to drive - all the lightweight cars are a joy on track. Choice is a good thing. Some people love the exuberant nature of the Atom, while others prefer the precision of the X-Bow. Extracting the full potential from either take talent and practice.
To be honest 2 seconds per mile - 2 seconds over Brands indy I guess, is something that for track day use I consider to be pretty comparable. As I mentioned before I think that the other point about the pace of a lap is related to the way the time is delivered and in the case of the KTM vs Atom the 2 things that I think are relevent is that the KTM does offer better high speed corner grip and better initial turn in, but IMHO it suffers badly in comparison from lack of raw acceleration. That shouldn't be a surprise, even heavily tuned the KTM at 360 bhp and 790kg = 455 bhp/tonne, whereas out of the box the basic Atom with 260 bhp and 550 kg = 473 bhp/tonne.
The KTM is beautifully made and whilst I clearly love the Atom, it does look like a less complex machine standing side by side. However, the price differential, be it £50k vs £35, or £85 vs £35 is still sufficiently large to mean that for many folks wanting a weekend/track toy it has to be massively better to justify the premium. On a track day 2s per lap doesn't cut it in my view, but each to his own, and I'm glad that the KTM exists and that I've been priveledged enough to have a go in one.
the atomic punk said:
...the price differential, be it £50k vs £35, or £85 vs £35 is still sufficiently large to mean that for many folks wanting a weekend/track toy it has to be massively better to justify the premium.
As this thread has demonstrated the X-Bow is nowhere near as expensive as many people seem to think. The fact is the average Atom 300, Caterham R500, Lotus 2-11 or X-Bow are all more than £40K in typical customer spec as they leave the factory. They are all expensive and impractical. They are also however, quicker, more fun and much less expensive to run on circuit that typical heavy GT cars that many people choose to track. I reckon a Porsche, Ferrari, Aston, Audi, Lambo or BMW is around treble the running cost of the lightweight cars.
If performance is the only consideration you can always find something faster for less money. Your £35k Atom is no doubt an extravagant ridiculous trinket to the guy who spent £20K on a Westfield who in turn is considered a cock by the guy who spent £10K on a Tiger or whatever etc...
I stand by the assertion that generally, you get what you pay for.
ScottL said:
As this thread has demonstrated the X-Bow is nowhere near as expensive as many people seem to think. The fact is the average Atom 300, Caterham R500, Lotus 2-11 or X-Bow are all more than £40K in typical customer spec as they leave the factory. They are all expensive and impractical.
They are also however, quicker, more fun and much less expensive to run on circuit that typical heavy GT cars that many people choose to track. I reckon a Porsche, Ferrari, Aston, Audi, Lambo or BMW is around treble the running cost of the lightweight cars.
If performance is the only consideration you can always find something faster for less money. Your £35k Atom is no doubt an extravagant ridiculous trinket to the guy who spent £20K on a Westfield who in turn is considered a cock by the guy who spent £10K on a Tiger or whatever etc...
I stand by the assertion that generally, you get what you pay for.
If that's all true, why is it that Caterham are building cars as quickly as ever and expanding into Europe, Ariel doing OK and KTM halting production? There must be a reason the X-Bow is struggling to sell or were KTM's initial sales projections just over-optimistic?They are also however, quicker, more fun and much less expensive to run on circuit that typical heavy GT cars that many people choose to track. I reckon a Porsche, Ferrari, Aston, Audi, Lambo or BMW is around treble the running cost of the lightweight cars.
If performance is the only consideration you can always find something faster for less money. Your £35k Atom is no doubt an extravagant ridiculous trinket to the guy who spent £20K on a Westfield who in turn is considered a cock by the guy who spent £10K on a Tiger or whatever etc...
I stand by the assertion that generally, you get what you pay for.
Personally I think they are excellent cars but couldn't have one myself for 2 reasons - no roof (I use my lightweight car daily) and too expensive for my admittedly paltry budget. Second hand values would have to plummet for me to consider one.
ScottL said:
Agent Orange said:
Was always undecided on the Atom. No more! I want one now, in black with the wings and the optional Vader helmet! Yes please gimme gimme gimme!
Is it cos it is black...or cos you have a Darth Vader fetish?Come on I'm not the only one surely? Am I? Really? Bugger....
ewenm said:
If that's all true, why is it that Caterham are building cars as quickly as ever and expanding into Europe, Ariel doing OK and KTM halting production? There must be a reason the X-Bow is struggling to sell or were KTM's initial sales projections just over-optimistic?
I think KTM have certainly been overly optimistic. The original forecast was 1,000 units per annum. Contrary to the original article they've sold around 500 cars in just over a year. Not bad going all things considered. They've now built a further 80 cars to supply the market until January when production resumes. I think they are now planning for around 250 units annually.One of their biggest issues is that Audi are preventing them from selling the car in the US which is obviously a huge potential market. I think this is due to product liability concerns but if I was KTM I would find a way to overcome it. I know that Ariel and Lotus have both sold well in the states. I'm sure the X-Bow would be popular there too.
They also need to tweak the product proposition to broaden the appeal. At one end of the spectrum they need a more powerful dynamic hardcore variant - essentially what many owners have already done for themselves - more power, less weight, sticky rubber, maybe DSG or sequential box. At the other end perhaps a touring version with panniers, windscreen, bigger fuel tank etc... then they need to somehow find a way to reduce the cost at least 10% and add an entry level car at £35K.
ScottL said:
the atomic punk said:
...the price differential, be it £50k vs £35, or £85 vs £35 is still sufficiently large to mean that for many folks wanting a weekend/track toy it has to be massively better to justify the premium.
As this thread has demonstrated the X-Bow is nowhere near as expensive as many people seem to think. The fact is the average Atom 300, Caterham R500, Lotus 2-11 or X-Bow are all more than £40K in typical customer spec as they leave the factory. They are all expensive and impractical. They are also however, quicker, more fun and much less expensive to run on circuit that typical heavy GT cars that many people choose to track. I reckon a Porsche, Ferrari, Aston, Audi, Lambo or BMW is around treble the running cost of the lightweight cars.
If performance is the only consideration you can always find something faster for less money. Your £35k Atom is no doubt an extravagant ridiculous trinket to the guy who spent £20K on a Westfield who in turn is considered a cock by the guy who spent £10K on a Tiger or whatever etc...
I stand by the assertion that generally, you get what you pay for.
Lightweight is certainly the way to go. There's a thread on the track day forum about costs of tracking, and I reckon that inclusive of all costs (travel, accomodation, attendance fee, insurance, fuel, tyres, servicing etc.) over the last 3 years my Atom has averaged about £500 per day. Some of the figures for heavier cars that you hear are just astounding. A close friend with a 997 rs reckons his costs £1,500 per day as a comparison.
I'm not sure that you can find faster for less £ fully costed than the Atom without having to do loads of work yourself on an ongoing basis, and I for one have no mechanical aptitude to be able to do that. Its reliability and simplicity is a real bonus in that respect.
in respect of your final comment, if you buy cheap you certainly get what you pay for. Paying lots doesn't guarantee the opposite though!
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