RE: Driven: Lotus Evora S
Discussion
Porscheplayer said:
Deranged Granny said:
Porscheplayer said:
I bet if Lotus lobbed 20K of the price, it would sell like hot cakes.
You don't say.As opposed to selling like pork chops at a Jewish convention
k that who needs to re-cope manufacturing cost and make a profit....lotus have lost their way..wheres the soul...you'd swear they were running a business of some sort!!Porscheplayer said:
The Evora S has some advantages over the 911(steering feel, perhaps image, better drive), but the Porsche counters with better build quality and reliability, better interior, more practical and I'd guess better high speed stability, although I haven't driven a Evora S to confirm this.
Horses for courses - I say it's great to have the choice of the two cars around that price point and if people want to sacrifice a bit of engine note and perceived quality for a better drive and (far) more exclusivity, they now can.
Making that trade-off does not make the Evora expensive. People just need to realise that you are effectively paying a premium for the world's best ride/handling compromise, something which will never be cheap and which it appears most Evora owners have been happy to pay for.
Porscheplayer said:
British Beef said:
Porscheplayer said:
I like Lotus, but always think their cars are over priced, couldn't figure out why a second hand Exige was nearly 30K, looks like it should be about 22K new.
Compared to Porsches, a £60k Evora S is a bargain. Try and build a 911 for close to that..... you cant!With an Exige you are paying more for less. If you want ultimate polished raw driver involvement little comes close and nothing at those sort of prices.
The Evora S has some advantages over the 911(steering feel, perhaps image, better drive), but the Porsche counters with better build quality and reliability, better interior, more practical and I'd guess better high speed stability, although I haven't driven a Evora S to confirm this.
Both good cars, but you couldn't describe the Evora as a bargain. It has been a bit of a flop in sales terms, probably down to the price. All the reviews are good; I bet if Lotus lobbed 20K of the price, it would sell like hot cakes.
However I can't agree with your suggestion that the 911 is similarly priced. The whole a 'few goodies' thing is too vague to make a fair comparison. Perhaps you'd care to post up what sort of 911 you get for Evora money?
When it comes to build quality the key thing is, is the Evora's good enough? Fair enough, shoddiness won't cut it at this level. I accept that most people place such things as highly as driving pleasure. But I'm encouraged by the recent reports which fairly or otherwise have been credited to the ex porsche employees at Lotus.
Personally speaking my 2006 Elise has more than good enough build quality (for me) and has to date has been mechanically faultless. I also want an elise to feel lightweight and minimalist inside. The later dash arrangement feels more 'solid' but I prefer the lean pared back feel of my generation interior. I accept that the Evora is a different proposition but I'd be very surprised if the build wasn't up to scratch and shocked if the toyota V6 caused anyone any trouble.
braddo said:
Porscheplayer said:
The Evora S has some advantages over the 911(steering feel, perhaps image, better drive), but the Porsche counters with better build quality and reliability, better interior, more practical and I'd guess better high speed stability, although I haven't driven a Evora S to confirm this.
Horses for courses - I say it's great to have the choice of the two cars around that price point and if people want to sacrifice a bit of engine note and perceived quality for a better drive and (far) more exclusivity, they now can.
Making that trade-off does not make the Evora expensive. People just need to realise that you are effectively paying a premium for the world's best ride/handling compromise, something which will never be cheap and which it appears most Evora owners have been happy to pay for.
What’s all this ‘perceived quality’ tosh, the interior is below par and so is the build quality, most independent reviews mention it. The last time I sat in an Evora it felt very flimsy compared to the other cars in that sector/price, I remember the hand brake wobbling from side to side just like the Elise’s.
It isn’t something which has been plucked out of the air to cheese Lotus owners off. I am pretty balanced, when it comes to cars, I haven’t driven one yet that’s prefect, but hopefully as mentioned in the review of the S the interior has moved a notch up.
Rergarding prices...
A 911 with sat Nav, sports exhaust, leather, sunroof is 72K ish
An Evora S starts at 60K plus options will come out about the same, the last time I priced the boggo Evora up it car out at 59K, I’ve tried to spec the Evora S, but website is slow and I can’t be arsed.
The point is if you’re spending that much money in a car. Five grand either way is nothing, oh and by way I bought my Cayman S for 47k with all the options I wanted.
Dagnut said:
Porscheplayer said:
Deranged Granny said:
Porscheplayer said:
I bet if Lotus lobbed 20K of the price, it would sell like hot cakes.
You don't say.As opposed to selling like pork chops at a Jewish convention
k that who needs to re-cope manufacturing cost and make a profit....lotus have lost their way..wheres the soul...you'd swear they were running a business of some sort!!
Lotus will not re-cope any manufacturing costs if their don't sell enough cars, you can only sell something for what people are willing to pay and so far Evora sales have been dire. The only possible reason is the price, judging by the sales figures the majority think it’s too pricey.
Porscheplayer said:
Dagnut said:
Porscheplayer said:
Deranged Granny said:
Porscheplayer said:
I bet if Lotus lobbed 20K of the price, it would sell like hot cakes.
You don't say.As opposed to selling like pork chops at a Jewish convention
k that who needs to re-cope manufacturing cost and make a profit....lotus have lost their way..wheres the soul...you'd swear they were running a business of some sort!!Lotus will not re-cope any manufacturing costs if their don't sell enough cars, you can only sell something for what people are willing to pay and so far Evora sales have been dire. The only possible reason is the price, judging by the sales figures the majority think it’s too pricey.
Porscheplayer said:
What’s all this ‘perceived quality’ tosh, the interior is below par and so is the build quality, most independent reviews mention it. The last time I sat in an Evora it felt very flimsy compared to the other cars in that sector/price, I remember the hand brake wobbling from side to side just like the Elise’s.
That's exactly what "perceived quality" is. The hand brake didn't fall off, it did it's job perfectly. It just felt flimsy. That in no way detracts from the way the car drives or what it's like to live with (unless you regularly do hand brake turns). It makes no difference to anything at all, really. It just leads you to perceive that the car is less well built. Admittedly the car almost certainly is less well built as well, but that is not an example of it.
Porscheplayer said:
braddo said:
Porscheplayer said:
The Evora S has some advantages over the 911(steering feel, perhaps image, better drive), but the Porsche counters with better build quality and reliability, better interior, more practical and I'd guess better high speed stability, although I haven't driven a Evora S to confirm this.
Horses for courses - I say it's great to have the choice of the two cars around that price point and if people want to sacrifice a bit of engine note and perceived quality for a better drive and (far) more exclusivity, they now can.
Making that trade-off does not make the Evora expensive. People just need to realise that you are effectively paying a premium for the world's best ride/handling compromise, something which will never be cheap and which it appears most Evora owners have been happy to pay for.
It isn’t something which has been plucked out of the air to cheese Lotus owners off. I am pretty balanced, when it comes to cars, I haven’t driven one yet that’s prefect, but hopefully as mentioned in the review of the S the interior has moved a notch up.
Rergarding prices...
The evora doesn't have the best interior going but in fact the latest reviews talk of good quality and the basic design is quite contemporary if minimalistic. They don't help themselves by always speccing black on black for press car interiors when you can choose lots of colours, leather, alcantara etc. They also shoot themselves in the foot with the cars in dealerships which mostly don't have the better interior packs and usually have a huge hole in the dash where the infotainment screen should be and a Halfords special shoved in. Funny how branding and loyalty works like this, ask anyone if they think a lambo will be nice inside and they'll say of course, but looked at objectively they are pretty crap inside. Many Ferraris are also guilty.
It would be reasonable for a buyer to choose a Porsche for percieved build quality over an Evora since Lotus need to have some time to show the improvements with the new staff on board before perceptions will change. They might not reach the levels that Porsche have since they are so good. A buyer who makes a decision on cars in this price range and values interior design (or any design aspect frankly) highly though wouldn't put Porsche at the top of the list though, I know, I am one and did exactly this exercise. I might be as bold to say you read the Evora reviews looking for something to validate a Porschophile standpoint rather than with an open mind, since there is much more positive reporting of interior build quality than negative. I've done the same sort of thing myself in the past.
Porscheplayer said:
Dagnut said:
Porscheplayer said:
Deranged Granny said:
Porscheplayer said:
I bet if Lotus lobbed 20K of the price, it would sell like hot cakes.
You don't say.As opposed to selling like pork chops at a Jewish convention
k that who needs to re-cope manufacturing cost and make a profit....lotus have lost their way..wheres the soul...you'd swear they were running a business of some sort!!Lotus will not re-cope any manufacturing costs if their don't sell enough cars, you can only sell something for what people are willing to pay and so far Evora sales have been dire. The only possible reason is the price, judging by the sales figures the majority think it’s too pricey.
Lotus manufacturing costs per unit, with comparable materials etc,is much higher than Porsche due to mass production. I can guarantee you that Porsche are making way more profit per unit than Lotus. I know that value to the customer is comparable, in this case the Porsche -in your opinion, but the fact is POrsche could probably afford to lob 20k of the price of a 911 - Lotus would go bust.
Porsche are the most profitable car maker, they introduced a much more streamlined and efficient manufacturing process - savings fattened the profits not reduced cost to the customer, as you would expect.
Lotus on the other hand are trying to get a stronger foothold in the market, I'm sure they are fully aware of the pricing and offering value but would you expect them to make a loss on each unit? There is so much invested in developing and producing a car.
Suggesting they lob of 33% of the price to make more sales was dumb and hence treated with sarcasm, if you still don't think it was dumb good luck to you.
Edited by Dagnut on Tuesday 9th November 16:05
peter450 said:
It's not like lotus have not made expensive cars in the past either, Elan S2, 7, and Elise aside all of there cars have been quite expensive
Very true. Take a 1981 Lotus Esprit Turbo as an example."Back in 1981, this car cost £20,900, precisely £773 more than a Ferrari 308 GTBi or equivalent to nearly 4% more than a todays £170,000 458 Italia! However, by the time production ended in 1987, the price and specification had been reduced to undercut Ferrari."
It's a real joy to hear you lot banging on about the interior. Personally I'd put prformance first and the shiny bits further down the list. At the end of the day if you want a mass-produced German car you can always go and buy one.
I'm looking forward to a drive in the Evora now it's got enough grunt not to be an embarrassment. Whether the total experience will stand up to the rather fancy pricing ... we shall see. And yes, the options list is clearly to be avoided!!
I'm looking forward to a drive in the Evora now it's got enough grunt not to be an embarrassment. Whether the total experience will stand up to the rather fancy pricing ... we shall see. And yes, the options list is clearly to be avoided!!
DJC I entirely agree. I also remember from previous posts how highly you regard Roger Becker and his work, of which the Evora is a shining example.
However having also owned a Sagaris, I think the Evora S will net out at very similar straight line go as it is (despite the difference in weight and power on paper), and there are go faster bits on the way. And I'm sure Cosworth could do you something special for your spare £10k too.
I'm confident that the Evora S will add genuinely thrilling acceleration and speed to it's substantial box of tricks.
Hopefully the full-on RS will still be made but the S will do me for now.
...and by the way bespoke colours are £2k... and I have the reflex charcoal paint codes...
However having also owned a Sagaris, I think the Evora S will net out at very similar straight line go as it is (despite the difference in weight and power on paper), and there are go faster bits on the way. And I'm sure Cosworth could do you something special for your spare £10k too.
I'm confident that the Evora S will add genuinely thrilling acceleration and speed to it's substantial box of tricks.
Hopefully the full-on RS will still be made but the S will do me for now.
...and by the way bespoke colours are £2k... and I have the reflex charcoal paint codes...
DJC said:
Since when do the words "Porsche interior" and "good" go next to each other?
I think Porsche interiors have always been well made and the ergonomics of the main controls are good. The secondary controls tend to be a mess (although that doesn't bother me) and they look rather, well, Germanic. I suppose it depends on whether you'd rather have dull bits that work, or interesting bits that don't. interior quality on an Evora is simply not good enough.
I spent some time in a new Evora last Sunday in the showroom .. not sure if the car was built recently and therefore indicative of the 'improved' quality
however, it just felt flimsy
the carpet under the rear storage bench (this was a 2+0 car) was misaligned. I tugged it gently, and it came off .. you could see and smell the glue.
the netting across the storage bench was awful .. looked like a net that had been in use for about 10 years -- fraying at the corners and exposing sharp metal edges
the panel covering the firewall in front of the engine also came off .. again it was misaligned and I gently tugged it.
the aluminium buttons on either side of the dials look OK, but feel terrible. There's no click, nothing. You really cannot tell whether you have turned it on/off without looking at it.
the plastic on the stalks for lights and wipers are not as good as Ford or Vauxhall .. it felt toy town, cheap and brittle.
For a £50k plus car, it's simply not good enough.
Interior impressions are important, it gives non car fanatics a feel of whether the car is well made, and whether it is made of quality materials. On both counts, it fails.
On a £7k hatchback, it might be OK. Not on a £50k plus sports car.
If they can't get simple things like this right, you worry about how the rest of the car has been engineered and built.
I spent some time in a new Evora last Sunday in the showroom .. not sure if the car was built recently and therefore indicative of the 'improved' quality
however, it just felt flimsy
the carpet under the rear storage bench (this was a 2+0 car) was misaligned. I tugged it gently, and it came off .. you could see and smell the glue.
the netting across the storage bench was awful .. looked like a net that had been in use for about 10 years -- fraying at the corners and exposing sharp metal edges
the panel covering the firewall in front of the engine also came off .. again it was misaligned and I gently tugged it.
the aluminium buttons on either side of the dials look OK, but feel terrible. There's no click, nothing. You really cannot tell whether you have turned it on/off without looking at it.
the plastic on the stalks for lights and wipers are not as good as Ford or Vauxhall .. it felt toy town, cheap and brittle.
For a £50k plus car, it's simply not good enough.
Interior impressions are important, it gives non car fanatics a feel of whether the car is well made, and whether it is made of quality materials. On both counts, it fails.
On a £7k hatchback, it might be OK. Not on a £50k plus sports car.
If they can't get simple things like this right, you worry about how the rest of the car has been engineered and built.
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