RE: New TVR Griffith - official

[DonkeyApple]

[redacted]

[GetCarter]

Sway said:

GetCarter said:

fblm said:

GetCarter said:

...it costs less, takes less time to assemble, uses fewer materials, and is greener and lighter.

Than what? The whole point of DFA is to reduce, cost, assembly time, foot print, tooling, reduce component count, use less material, choose better materials etc... iStream looks like a brand name for DFA, a design process that was taught in Uni 20 years ago when I did it and that if GM wasn't involved no one would care about. What I can't work out from the marketing guff and pretty animations is if there is something more or particularly clever about iStream that elevates it above DFA for low volume cars?

Mate... Just google iStream and you'll get the idea. It's not that difficult to understand.

Yamaha love it!

Fblm is correct though - it's nothing novel, even if low volume car manufacturers haven't done it before at this level of public profile.

There are hundreds of examples of very similar processes and operating models that provide the same principles and approach. There was the US start up that produced the Rally Fighter (iirc) that used effectively the same approach.

Of course. Just not very 21st Century. Yamaha and TVR might even take it up.

ETA: (Others to come - watch the space - not this one obviously!)

Edited by GetCarter on Thursday 14th September 19:29

[Sway]

GetCarter said:

Of course. Just not 21st Century. Yamaha and TVR might even take it up.

Indeed. The key to what GM has done is the same as what's underpinned a lot of the success of CI corporate consultants such as McKinsey - create a 'system' of painting by numbers so the customer doesn't actually have to understand the principles! Fair play to him for identifying the niche.

[DonkeyApple]

GetCarter said:

Of course. Just not very 21st Century. Yamaha and TVR might even take it up.

ETA: (Others to come - watch the space - not this one obviously!)

Edited by GetCarter on Thursday 14th September 19:29

I was shown around the Yamaha car when I was down there. I thought it was a cool little runabout. Are they going ahead with it?

[Jazz Machine]

CABC said:

Jazz Machine said:

And the price-point, well that's arguable and I struggle to exactly work out where it fits. TVR bring up valid points - it's a 500bhp NA V8 with a cutting edge carbon fibre chassis, and power-to-weight ratio that exceeds even a 911 turbo s. It's competing with much more expensive cars. Yes those have super techy gearboxes, and probably better/more electronic driving aids, but we all know that's not what this car is about.

Compared to an F-type V8R/SVR which I feel this car is closest in spirit to, I feel the F-type may look prettier, but this certainly looks crazier, and sorry but dynamically those don't stand a chance given their 500kg weight penalty and the TVR's far superior aero package, given they are similar-ish in size, and the boot is bigger!! Oh and the F-type's manual only comes on the V6... and I didn't feel particularly special inside an F-type's interior. Added to that when you think an F-Type V8R starts at £91k (and you will spend several thousands on options on top), the Griffith starts to look like a very appealing option.

maybe it doesn't need to fit in anywhere. it's a great, typically TVR recipe, of driver oriented raw high power.
Weight dulls the experience, no matter how clever the engineering. The big manufacturers (and their big cars) have left a TVR-sized gap. Shame i can't still punt 5k now, that's a bargain opening deal.

Well, yeah the more I think about it, the more I am convinced that a £5k returnable deposit as a way of ensuring your build slot is really really good! And that actually the £90k final price is also pretty damn good considering what else is on the market at that level, coming in under the real OTR price of an F-Type V8R or 911 Carrera 2 S once you add options, of course depending what the buyer wants, but this will certainly represent he purest driving, fastest and most unique of those 3 options.

Don't forget, the majority of sports and super-cars are now bought using finance options, so I also think there will be SOME younger drivers!

[anonymous-user]

GetCarter said:

Mate... Just google iStream and you'll get the idea. It's not that difficult to understand.

Yamaha love it!

I've got a Masters degree in Manufacturing Engineering so I have some knowledge of DFA/M. What I don't understand is how iStream is different or why it is 'revolutionary' or 'radical'. I'm genuinely interested but everything I've read is marketing fluff. You mention Yamaha; interestingly back in the late 90's the textbook example of DFA done right was the '92 Honda Fireblade... what goes round comes round maybe?

[andrew]

itv4 now !

[anonymous-user]

Cold said:

Jazz Machine said:

it's a 500bhp NA V8 with a cutting edge carbon fibre chassis,

There's a lot of welding going on for a carbon fibre chassis.

[Jazz Machine]

fblm said:

• shrug* Yes its a tubular chassis (like in many good racing cars) with carbon fibre bonded for structural rigidity. My point was when you actually read my whole original comment/essay is that It's still apparently not offered on anything else as far as I know, and is a technologically cutting edge chassis, for a reasonable price. Frankly, compare this to an f-type chassis and it's like night and day!

[anonymous-user]

Jazz Machine said:

fblm said:

• shrug* Yes its a tubular chassis (like in many good racing cars) with carbon fibre bonded for structural rigidity. My point was when you actually read my whole original comment/essay is that It's still apparently not offered on anything else as far as I know, and is a technologically cutting edge chassis, for a reasonable price. Frankly, compare this to an f-type chassis and it's like night and day!

Hey I'm not knocking it I think it's a clever mix of materials for the volume/performance/price

Edited to add for comedy value... an old Griff/Chim chassis...

Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 14th September 23:44

[DeejRC]

DonkeyApple said:

You're alive!!! How are you?

I am 😀 I'm well thank you old boy!
I hope life is treating you in a most agreeable manner?

I disappeared a while ago as I had a disagreement with Management on PH about their numbnuts "journo" and his arse licking of a Ferrari and I couldn't be arsed to apologise.

I was trying to avoid the TVR stuff as - well duh! It's same old same old.

[2 sMoKiN bArReLs]

Will PH have a "new" Griffith forum, or will the new posh lot need to mix it with the non abs, traction control mob?

[CanoeSniffer]

fblm said:

Edited to add for comedy value... an old Griff/Chim chassis...

Edited by fblm on Thursday 14th September 23:44

Put those outriggers away before they dissolve

[dxg]

I genuinely don;t think you can call the tvr chassis cutting edge in terms of the material technologies.

It's not really cutting edge in terms of the production technique, either.

What it is, however, is affordable for smaller production lines because it avoids the need for much tooling...


Also, they do keep going on about how istream can accommodate carbon tubes instead of steel. Doesn't say anything about how they're joined...

[Ares]

DonkeyApple said:

The problem today is that the average Brit with £90k to bin on a toy is probably over 65 and would be dead before they got to the Chunnel so the market dictates the building of all these cars which are essentially just life support systems. Seats that keep the old Chalfonts warm, cameras and screens so you don't have to risk turning your head and putting your back out, removing one pedal so you've just got to cope with one per foot and various other modern marvels that make the average mass produced sports car seem more like a private hospital room than an adventure out onto the wild open road.

I'd say you are wildly wrong on the £90k/65+ comment.

What the £90k buyer does want though is perceived value for money (and to a degree, status), and the bulk of them don't want a raw 'it might kill you' kind go car. They want super performance thrills, but then to be able to sit in traffic, HQ audio playing, on the school run. They want to know it starts every morning, and get to 99.9% of it's destinations.

It's the reason why the 911 will outstrip TVRs 1000:1...and the reason why the Boxster/Cayman will outstrip the Lotus, M3 will outstrip the Alfa QV, S63 will outstrip DB11...etc etc. To some it is just 'sheep' mentality, but there is rationale behind it.

[StottyGTR]

I'm liking the Griffith more and more each day, I am wondering though, if it does 200mph+ with 480hp it must be an extremely low drag design. This would lead me to believe it hasn't much downforce, I'd like to see some numbers on this!

[DonkeyApple]

Ares said:

I'd say you are wildly wrong on the £90k/65+ comment.

What the £90k buyer does want though is perceived value for money (and to a degree, status), and the bulk of them don't want a raw 'it might kill you' kind go car. They want super performance thrills, but then to be able to sit in traffic, HQ audio playing, on the school run. They want to know it starts every morning, and get to 99.9% of it's destinations.

It's the reason why the 911 will outstrip TVRs 1000:1...and the reason why the Boxster/Cayman will outstrip the Lotus, M3 will outstrip the Alfa QV, S63 will outstrip DB11...etc etc. To some it is just 'sheep' mentality, but there is rationale behind it.

That's what the marketing tells you. But the reality is that the buyers in the U.K. of vehicles at this price point are predominantly white, over 55s. Hence my hyperbolic post.

[rtz62]

I'd wager that if this bore a Porsche badge on its snout, certain factions on here would be flagellating themselves with a cat o'nine tails made of their own pubic hair in an effort not to go come over all gushing about it.
It's British, let's slate it, seems to be the premise of some of the posts on here.
Well how about waiting for the first real road tests by PH, Autocar etc and then set about dissecting the results?

[Ares]

DonkeyApple said:

Ares said:

I'd say you are wildly wrong on the £90k/65+ comment.

What the £90k buyer does want though is perceived value for money (and to a degree, status), and the bulk of them don't want a raw 'it might kill you' kind go car. They want super performance thrills, but then to be able to sit in traffic, HQ audio playing, on the school run. They want to know it starts every morning, and get to 99.9% of it's destinations.

It's the reason why the 911 will outstrip TVRs 1000:1...and the reason why the Boxster/Cayman will outstrip the Lotus, M3 will outstrip the Alfa QV, S63 will outstrip DB11...etc etc. To some it is just 'sheep' mentality, but there is rationale behind it.

That's what the marketing tells you. But the reality is that the buyers in the U.K. of vehicles at this price point are predominantly white, over 55s. Hence my hyperbolic post.

It's just based on the drivers I see of them, and round here thats a lot. Ditto in London.

55+ is closer, but I know a hell of a lot of owners of c£90k sports cars in their 40s, and younger.

[PGNSagaris]

rtz62 said:

I'd wager that if this bore a Porsche badge on its snout, certain factions on here would be flagellating themselves with a cat o'nine tails made of their own pubic hair in an effort not to go come over all gushing about it.
It's British, let's slate it, seems to be the premise of some of the posts on here.

Total nonsense. At the moment all we have to go on is the way it looks. And it has disappointed a far larger proportion of people than was expected - myself, a now ex deposit holder, included. Nothing to do with ethnic origins.

I have no doubt the engineering will be brilliant. It's Gordon Murray. Hopefully some design tweaks will help the looks before it gets sold in 2019