RE: Chris Harris Video: Hot Hatch Showdown
Discussion
currybum said:
nickfrog said:
You're looking at the old shape 1 series I think. A 3dr M135i is £29,995 OTR including leather and xenon. Minus 9% discount.
A ST2 at £20k with 1000 miles is superb VFM though.
Correct it was actually the price of the Coupe on the BMW website, Its still in a very different price bracket though.A ST2 at £20k with 1000 miles is superb VFM though.
Not that much in it really. Personally, I would spend the extra money in the BMW (just), and I am really not a badge snob. Oh, and it not compulsory (nor needed IMO) to buy any other options as this is for a factory order (contrary to what other posters seem to imply).
Edited by nickfrog on Thursday 22 November 16:35
405dogvan said:
Dave Hedgehog said:
405dogvan said:
The Focus may be close in RRP to the BMW however
a - for that money you get a s
tload of toys the BMW doesn't have
b - no-one - and I mean NO-ONE - pays RRP on Fords
The real gap between those 2 cars is probably more like £5-6K - add on the higher fuel and maintenance costs on the BMW and you'll make-up for the crushing depreciation on the ST
PH members have been reporting 10% of the BMW, I would sacrifice toys for a vastly faster and better built car, with far more badge prestige and having the proper wheels driven, i wouldn't pay £10 for a car as ugly as the ford a - for that money you get a s
tload of toys the BMW doesn't haveb - no-one - and I mean NO-ONE - pays RRP on Fords
The real gap between those 2 cars is probably more like £5-6K - add on the higher fuel and maintenance costs on the BMW and you'll make-up for the crushing depreciation on the ST
Edited by 405dogvan on Thursday 22 November 03:40
M135i very well equipped as std
Discounts on ST3 not great for the moment
Maintenance costs on the BMW low at £300 / 5 years
Higher fuel costs on the BMW. Possibly but might not be that great a gap.
Real world difference in price : see my previous post, not that much.
Edited by nickfrog on Thursday 22 November 16:55
TTGuy said:
They're all grand cars, but I am starting to tyre of the format of these videos - I mean, SO much emphasis on what the cars are like to drive and little or no discussion about anything else! It's all understeer, oversteer, grip, tracks, power, balance, chassis, dynamics, braking, steering…all of that stuff has its place, but only as c. 40% of any review - check out the Fifth Gear 'team test' review of any car as an example of how it should be done! The majority of owners, even of cars like this, have little or no interest in how they perform on track or 'at the limit' as they will never venture anywhere near there! Come on Chris - you can do better!
Except he also tells the viewer how the cars perform where they spend all there time.... On the road. If someone is interested in buying any of these cars and want to see if the seats are comfortable or the boot is big enough then go to the dealership. Chris Harris's videos are there to give you a view on how the cars perform at what they're aimed to do - be driven quickly. It's nothing more than giving the viewer an idea on what the cars will be like and maybe give some advice on the one to buy based on driving. I do genuinely wonder what else you expect from Chris Harris/Pistonheads/Drive?
nickfrog said:
Half a bracket I'd say ! The BMW is very well equipped as std contrary to previous posts. You need to look at ST3 to compare like for like (ie with leather and xenons). On AT cheapest 1 owner low miles ST3 is £23k in white and then it's £25k in blue. Compared this to an OTR new price of £27,300K for the M135i after discount or even £27,750K with paint. Plus you can buy the cheap BMW 5 year servicing pack, which should prove cheaper then the Ford to maintain (contrary to previous posts).
That's not really an apples / apples comparison is it? If you're going to compare a special offer price for the BM, you need to do the same for an ST / VXR / Megane.... all these cars will have some haggle room at the dealer and chances are they'll still then be a good way cheaper than the £27.5K BM with no options, which as we all know if a big no-no, if you want to protect any kind of investment.356Speedster said:
nickfrog said:
Half a bracket I'd say ! The BMW is very well equipped as std contrary to previous posts. You need to look at ST3 to compare like for like (ie with leather and xenons). On AT cheapest 1 owner low miles ST3 is £23k in white and then it's £25k in blue. Compared this to an OTR new price of £27,300K for the M135i after discount or even £27,750K with paint. Plus you can buy the cheap BMW 5 year servicing pack, which should prove cheaper then the Ford to maintain (contrary to previous posts).
That's not really an apples / apples comparison is it? If you're going to compare a special offer price for the BM, you need to do the same for an ST / VXR / Megane.... all these cars will have some haggle room at the dealer and chances are they'll still then be a good way cheaper than the £27.5K BM with no options, which as we all know if a big no-no, if you want to protect any kind of investment.BMW standard spec with no extras personal contract 36months £ 533 per month
Ford ST1 standard spec with no extras personal contract 36months £ 341 per month
Renault Cup standard spec with no extras personal contract 36months £ 304 per month
Vauxhall standard spec with no extras personal contract 36months £ 429 per month
_Batty_ said:
Take a second to read my previous car history. Lets look shall we? Oh yes, an RS Megane owned for 2 years, and a member of Meg sport. I had a member do all the maintenance on the car, and even he said as a Renualt employee he'd never have another megane.
I spent 2k on repairs in 18 months. Let alone servicing. Clios appear to last slightly better, it has to be said, but I'd never own another. Mine was @ 18k miles to 44k.
But you had the old one.I spent 2k on repairs in 18 months. Let alone servicing. Clios appear to last slightly better, it has to be said, but I'd never own another. Mine was @ 18k miles to 44k.
New one is much better built.
356Speedster said:
nickfrog said:
Half a bracket I'd say ! The BMW is very well equipped as std contrary to previous posts. You need to look at ST3 to compare like for like (ie with leather and xenons). On AT cheapest 1 owner low miles ST3 is £23k in white and then it's £25k in blue. Compared this to an OTR new price of £27,300K for the M135i after discount or even £27,750K with paint. Plus you can buy the cheap BMW 5 year servicing pack, which should prove cheaper then the Ford to maintain (contrary to previous posts).
That's not really an apples / apples comparison is it? If you're going to compare a special offer price for the BM, you need to do the same for an ST / VXR / Megane.... all these cars will have some haggle room at the dealer and chances are they'll still then be a good way cheaper than the £27.5K BM with no options, which as we all know if a big no-no, if you want to protect any kind of investment.It is not a special offer price. I have actually compared the price of the BMW NEW to the price of the Ford SECOND HAND.
For apple and pear comparison, one should actually compare to the price of a new Ford ST, which does not attract much discount. Even Broadspeed or the other usual sources only show 5% discount. No idea why.
nickfrog said:
Sorry but options on this particularly BMW will add next to nothing compared to a bare car IMO. It's got leather and xenons as std.
It is not a special offer price. I have actually compared the price of the BMW NEW to the price of the Ford SECOND HAND.
For apple and pear comparison, one should actually compare to the price of a new Ford ST, which does not attract much discount. Even Broadspeed or the other usual sources only show 5% discount. No idea why.
Hi Nick... that's my point tho', you can't compare a new car to a used one and the offer you've seen on the 135i isn't showing on BMW's web site (still £30K basic), so it is someone's special offer.It is not a special offer price. I have actually compared the price of the BMW NEW to the price of the Ford SECOND HAND.
For apple and pear comparison, one should actually compare to the price of a new Ford ST, which does not attract much discount. Even Broadspeed or the other usual sources only show 5% discount. No idea why.
To be fair, we need someone to actually walk into a Ford dealer and wave cash to see exactly what offers may / may not be on the table.. until then we're all guessing. Either way, I'd be VERY surprised if there isn't a few grand to come off it.
That said, if there really are no deals, it would suggest that demand is high as it's still brand new, so maybe that explains it. The BMW has been available for longer and one could hypothesise that BMW are struggling to shift units. That's obviously pure guess-work, you understand!
The standard list of options for the M135i can be found here:
http://www.bmw.co.uk/bmwuk/pricesandspecifications...
As standard a base one at £29,995 has leather, aircon, Xenon lights, 18" wheels, headlamp wash and a 6 speed manual gearbox.
That's all you really need. The standard one is a bit of a bargain.
http://www.bmw.co.uk/bmwuk/pricesandspecifications...
As standard a base one at £29,995 has leather, aircon, Xenon lights, 18" wheels, headlamp wash and a 6 speed manual gearbox.
That's all you really need. The standard one is a bit of a bargain.
TobesH said:
BMW standard spec with no extras personal contract 36months £ 533 per month
Ford ST1 standard spec with no extras personal contract 36months £ 341 per month
Renault Cup standard spec with no extras personal contract 36months £ 304 per month
Vauxhall standard spec with no extras personal contract 36months £ 429 per month
VERY interesting..... I run a Focus RS MP350 as my company car on a 4yr lease.... mthly price = £330 Ford ST1 standard spec with no extras personal contract 36months £ 341 per month
Renault Cup standard spec with no extras personal contract 36months £ 304 per month
Vauxhall standard spec with no extras personal contract 36months £ 429 per month
Full maintenance is another £90, but I get my value from that in tyres alone, LOL!!Key factors in lease prices are OTR price and depreciation... so, assuming the same down payment / final payment, this suggests BMW & Vauxhall while both the highest OTR priced cars, are also expecting to lose a slightly larger %'age in value over the term..... actually, a quick G-Guide check suggests the ST will lose £15K over 4yrs, the VXR £18K, but the BMW will lose £22K!!! OK, these are only industry estimates, but that is quite a surprise.
356Speedster said:
Hi Nick... that's my point tho', you can't compare a new car to a used one and the offer you've seen on the 135i isn't showing on BMW's web site (still £30K basic), so it is someone's special offer.
BMW (the manufacturer, or their UK HQ) only publish the OTR online, they don't sell to the public but through their franchised network of independent dealers. It's then up to the dealer to decide what level of discount they grant (that may be subsidised or not by BMW UK, their supplier). Most BMW dealers will give 9% off after negociation, that's not a "special offer", it's a purely conventional commercial negociation. The same way as most Ford dealers will also discount Ford's UK OTR prices, but at a lower % level it seems. I may be wrong on that, it'd be good to hear people's experience.If you compare new list prices including respective assumed discounts, the gap looks even smaller so I thought comparing second hand Ford would give it an advantage...
nickfrog said:
BMW (the manufacturer, or their UK HQ) only publish the OTR online, they don't sell to the public but through their franchised network of independent dealers. It's then up to the dealer to decide what level of discount they grant (that may be subsidised or not by BMW UK, their supplier). Most BMW dealers will give 9% off after negociation, that's not a "special offer", it's a purely conventional commercial negociation. The same way as most Ford dealers will also discount Ford's UK OTR prices, but at a lower % level it seems. I may be wrong on that, it'd be good to hear people's experience.
If you compare new list prices including respective assumed discounts, the gap looks even smaller so I thought comparing second hand Ford would give it an advantage...
Now I see where you're going If you compare new list prices including respective assumed discounts, the gap looks even smaller so I thought comparing second hand Ford would give it an advantage...
Yup, we could do with some real world dealer quotes from peeps to see the realistic deals that are out there. As I mentioned, it'd be interesting to know what supply / demand is like for these cars too in order to add context.... then there's the depreciation I mentioned too that any owner needs to consider. All in all, I have to say (without bias as I'm not shopping!), the Ford looks like the best of a bad bunch from a new investment POV.Grovsie26 said:
Why are you arguing over the price. The Beamer is a 30k and the ford is a lot cheaper. Get over it.
Is it a lot cheaper? The Ford with options is reasonably close in price to a standard spec M135i. Furthermore, as mentioned you also get some good options (everything you need) with the standard BMW.The argument of price between the two cars is quite relevant. The Ford with options is only 6.5% less in price than the £29,995 BMW are asking for.
TobesH said:
I love the new M135i and all these hot hatches. For like for like compare contract hire costs... the Ford is a lot cheaper than the BMW before adding spec in real terms which will reflect actual discounts and cost to run including depreciation:
BMW standard spec with no extras personal contract 36months £ 533 per month
Ford ST1 standard spec with no extras personal contract 36months £ 341 per month
Renault Cup standard spec with no extras personal contract 36months £ 304 per month
Vauxhall standard spec with no extras personal contract 36months £ 429 per month
Where did you get the figure of £304 for 36 months in the Renault? best I managed to find was £360 ishBMW standard spec with no extras personal contract 36months £ 533 per month
Ford ST1 standard spec with no extras personal contract 36months £ 341 per month
Renault Cup standard spec with no extras personal contract 36months £ 304 per month
Vauxhall standard spec with no extras personal contract 36months £ 429 per month
BeirutTaxi said:
Is it a lot cheaper? The Ford with options is reasonably close in price to a standard spec M135i. Furthermore, as mentioned you also get some good options (everything you need) with the standard BMW.
The argument of price between the two cars is quite relevant. The Ford with options is only 6.5% less in price than the £29,995 BMW are asking for.
If you are comparing a fully loaded ST, you must also research the price of the BMW with those same options. I do agree as a driver that we really shouldn't need more than a manual gearbox some AC and a good lights, but we all know that on the 2nd hand market such cars are a lot less desirable and values will reflect that. Then you need to factor in depreciation too. To be honest, I can't be bothered to do all that research, so hopefully someone else will and give us a full breakdown.The argument of price between the two cars is quite relevant. The Ford with options is only 6.5% less in price than the £29,995 BMW are asking for.
Devil2575 said:
Grovsie26 said:
ADM06 said:
The M135i is what I'd go for. Yeah it's a bit ugly, but I think most modern cars are ugly if I'm honest.
More importantly it's the only one with correct wheel drive and if its anything like the 135i coupe, 450bhp can be had for a grand.
130bhp for a grand? More importantly it's the only one with correct wheel drive and if its anything like the 135i coupe, 450bhp can be had for a grand.
£200 intercooler, £300 exhaust, £500 remap. Obviously prices will vary somewhat, but if you're thinking of doing it don't pay more than £1500.
I will reiterate my choice of the M135i as it is the only one that has all the bases covered. People mention it will significantly cost more than £30k once specced up with "essentials". If you deem aircon an essential in a country that is never either hot nor cold you are either too fat or too soft.
One thing you can't spec on a £28k focus ST or even a £40k RS3 is correct wheel drive, for love nor money.
Edited by ADM06 on Thursday 22 November 20:25
I've now seen the video - blocked in work.
I have to say that for me, the Focus ST is a really ugly car and that rules it out for me. I just think the front looks boring and the rear lights "smeared". It looks great fun but desire never comes into it. I also don't like "clap-hand" wipers. "Funky" it isn't.
I still think the VXR looks best but not to the degree it elicits any desire.
The Megane simialrly looks great fun butyellow seats belts that look like sam Brown safety belts just spells 80s to me.
I re-iterate my earlier conclusion that I don't want any of them though neither do I want a BMW 135i which is going to be less useable in wet weather.
One or two other points - in these here parts, if you're going to use the word "superb", it's moe "SYOO(pause)PERB".
Ity also appears our sheep have got used to the hooligans utilising these roads though not one of them had their heads turned by any one of them...and you know, your girlfriend has to like your car.
I have to say that for me, the Focus ST is a really ugly car and that rules it out for me. I just think the front looks boring and the rear lights "smeared". It looks great fun but desire never comes into it. I also don't like "clap-hand" wipers. "Funky" it isn't.
I still think the VXR looks best but not to the degree it elicits any desire.
The Megane simialrly looks great fun butyellow seats belts that look like sam Brown safety belts just spells 80s to me.
I re-iterate my earlier conclusion that I don't want any of them though neither do I want a BMW 135i which is going to be less useable in wet weather.
One or two other points - in these here parts, if you're going to use the word "superb", it's moe "SYOO(pause)PERB".
Ity also appears our sheep have got used to the hooligans utilising these roads though not one of them had their heads turned by any one of them...and you know, your girlfriend has to like your car.
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