RE: Dual-clutch Clio RS: the defence
Discussion
Apologies if this has been mentioned before, but if RenaultSport are chasing sales with the DSG-style transmission, then why not make the car softer? More people know what comfortable is than what a 'good' chassis feels like. In fact a petrol engine is thirsty too, so just make it a diesel, the majority of the public probably won't care and it'll be cheaper to run. Why make a RenaultSport and not just a diesel hatchback? They'd definitely sell more of them.
I thought the idea of the RenaultSport 'brand' was to act as a halo on top of the Clio (or whatever) range to attract numpties like us into the showroom in the first place.
Now obviously I haven't driven the car, but I'm not sure I'd want a slightly less comfortable, slightly louder, slightly more expensive automatic Clio...
I thought the idea of the RenaultSport 'brand' was to act as a halo on top of the Clio (or whatever) range to attract numpties like us into the showroom in the first place.
Now obviously I haven't driven the car, but I'm not sure I'd want a slightly less comfortable, slightly louder, slightly more expensive automatic Clio...
I'm all for automated fast gearboxes on sports cars so sporty they are almost track cars (F360 CS, M3 CSL etc), but on a hot hatch?
Right off the bat it's fwd, and cheap. It's never gonna be about outright times, it's about fun and thrills and a clutch and DIY shifting add a huge amount to that imo.
Ah well, another car I won't be buying because it's just an automatic only in a car that I'd prefer to be manual.
Dave
Right off the bat it's fwd, and cheap. It's never gonna be about outright times, it's about fun and thrills and a clutch and DIY shifting add a huge amount to that imo.
Ah well, another car I won't be buying because it's just an automatic only in a car that I'd prefer to be manual.
Dave
Butter Face said:
It will be a brilliant car, it will run rings around the previous generations of Clio RS models too.
Some drivers may run rings around the previous gen (whatever that means).But then again some drivers in an old gen may easily run rings around the new one.
Road drivers are always the limiting factor, whatever gear box.
davepoth said:
I was playing Devil's Advocate there. Sorry for being so subtle. 
Don't worry, we got it 
My vid of why you NEED a manual box doesn't seem to be viewable. My lot has no plans to get rid anytime soon. In fact they have pledged to keep it going. My own view is that you can go too far with clutch less. It's a great innovation but you still need to allow 'some' driver involvement. SMG 2 BMW box for me was excellent. Auto mode was s
t but there if needed. Manual mode, you still needed to match revs/speed etc whilst using the paddles. Very satisfying when done correctly.I wouldn't knock Renault though. For sure, a hard retail time for them at the mo but as this is a thread about the sportier side of things, Renault ain't stupid. Technology? Renault is probably 'THE' provider in the Motorsport arena just now. And that will cascade down. Look at German reliability tests. You may be surprised at which manufacturer comes out as more reliable......
TVR1 said:
davepoth said:
I was playing Devil's Advocate there. Sorry for being so subtle.
Don't worry, we got it My vid of why you NEED a manual box doesn't seem to be viewable. My lot has no plans to get rid anytime soon. In fact they have pledged to keep it going. My own view is that you can go too far with clutch less. It's a great innovation but you still need to allow 'some' driver involvement. SMG 2 BMW box for me was excellent. Auto mode was s
t but there if needed. Manual mode, you still needed to match revs/speed etc whilst using the paddles. Very satisfying when done correctly.I wouldn't knock Renault though. For sure, a hard retail time for them at the mo but as this is a thread about the sportier side of things, Renault ain't stupid. Technology? Renault is probably 'THE' provider in the Motorsport arena just now. And that will cascade down. Look at German reliability tests. You may be surprised at which manufacturer comes out as more reliable......
I reckon they built this new Clio on the platform that was available and realised it wasn't ever going to be a track weapon like the last generation. So instead they're going for the "lifestyle" market, pitching it at things like the Mini Clubman, Fiesta ST etc. where people aren't going to be tracking their cars much but like the idea that they could. It makes sense to put things on the car that make a "sporty feeling" accessible to people who don't know how to drive a manual box fast, and flappy paddles certainly offer that.
My guess is that the new Twingo will be the real fun small Renault. Especially if the rumours about the engine being in the boot are true.
The MD is fooling himself if he thinks a DCT is going to make the car appeal to wider a audience, the people who don't buy Renaults now still won't buy Renaults when they're all using DCTs because they don't want a Renault, they want a VAG car.
The RS version of the Clio at least seems like it will be a flop imo, I'd rather go buy a Golf if I wanted a DCT/DSG and FI and I'm sure most other people would too.
The RS version of the Clio at least seems like it will be a flop imo, I'd rather go buy a Golf if I wanted a DCT/DSG and FI and I'm sure most other people would too.
Arthur Daley said:
Interesting thread.... Having been involved with the renault brand in the past and having owned and driven a myriad of RS models my views:
-Every single new RS model has been slated upon launch. Without fail. The 182 was no improvement over the holy PH1 172 or PH Quick as it became known, enthusiasts slated the drive by wire... what you needed was a Ph1 with cable throttle, and if yours had both aluminium bonnet and shift light you were instantly promoted to moderator status!
The 200 was overweight and slow and uglier than the 197... yet everyone loves it now!
-Those that say the RS models are the saviour of Renault I have news for you. They represent a small percentage of overall sales. Its also worth noting that alot of 'enthusiasts' don't actually buy new cars they buy at sub 5k a few years down the line and moan when a manufacturer changes something but won't actually buy one!
- And finally the RS market is growing up, many of us have had Clio Williams's, PH1 172's, Clio Trophys, 197 F1's, we have tried them all, remember the 172 came out in 2000... 13 yrs ago! A five door clio RS... sounds fantastic, what a great family car.
One things for sure it will drive great and I think it will be a massive sucess!
Yep, I'd definitely consider one as the car to run the kids around in and commute to work in, but as a fun thing I'd have something on the side, like one of the older versions for £peanuts-Every single new RS model has been slated upon launch. Without fail. The 182 was no improvement over the holy PH1 172 or PH Quick as it became known, enthusiasts slated the drive by wire... what you needed was a Ph1 with cable throttle, and if yours had both aluminium bonnet and shift light you were instantly promoted to moderator status!
The 200 was overweight and slow and uglier than the 197... yet everyone loves it now!
-Those that say the RS models are the saviour of Renault I have news for you. They represent a small percentage of overall sales. Its also worth noting that alot of 'enthusiasts' don't actually buy new cars they buy at sub 5k a few years down the line and moan when a manufacturer changes something but won't actually buy one!
- And finally the RS market is growing up, many of us have had Clio Williams's, PH1 172's, Clio Trophys, 197 F1's, we have tried them all, remember the 172 came out in 2000... 13 yrs ago! A five door clio RS... sounds fantastic, what a great family car.
One things for sure it will drive great and I think it will be a massive sucess!
Interesting topic.
I wonder, of all the posters debating, who:
- has previously owned any RS model
- would be in the market for such a car
- simply offering an argument for the sake of it
I'm on my third RS Clio, sadly it will be my last. Manual and three doors are a must have for me...simple as that.
I wonder, of all the posters debating, who:
- has previously owned any RS model
- would be in the market for such a car
- simply offering an argument for the sake of it
I'm on my third RS Clio, sadly it will be my last. Manual and three doors are a must have for me...simple as that.
Hoink said:
Interesting topic.
I wonder, of all the posters debating, who:
- has previously owned any RS model
- would be in the market for such a car
- simply offering an argument for the sake of it
I'm on my third RS Clio, sadly it will be my last. Manual and three doors are a must have for me...simple as that.
Me.I wonder, of all the posters debating, who:
- has previously owned any RS model
- would be in the market for such a car
- simply offering an argument for the sake of it
I'm on my third RS Clio, sadly it will be my last. Manual and three doors are a must have for me...simple as that.
Its an interesting debate the whole dual clutch issue. Whilst I have no dea what the box is like on the new clio, I did have the dsg box in the ibiza cupra. I found the novelty did wear off at a point, and then started using the tiptronic. Ended up selling to go back to a manual. But its when going back to the manual you realise what a great piece of kit those boxes are, and actually miss the dsg box and would have another dsg without a second thought. Hopefully its a sign of more technology once reserved for the racing cars, and ultra expensive supercars, becoming available in the more useable day to day cars. But in the future it might only be the hot hatch market for the performance technology, with the likes of the impreza and evo calling it a day, who always seemed to be at the front of new technologies in realistic cars.
interloper said:
But are they? What most people seem to want is German and it seems only the brave opt for the Renault sport experience. It seems daft to scare off your loyal fan base and try and chase VW, Audi customers instead as they are hardly likely to "convert".
Simply put, by not offering a manual option they may loose a load of sales.
A few people here are saying Renault are chasing VW customers... They're not. All that was said is dual clutch transmissions have made a big impact over at VW and they have noted this. Others have also said Renault is on the edge and a DCT clutch in a RenaultSport Clio will be the thing to finish Renault off. Anyone who believes that the survival of Renault hangs on the Clio sport having no manual option is an idiot. The Sport models don't sell in the numbers that are going to make a huge contribution to the bottom line. Simply put, by not offering a manual option they may loose a load of sales.
If the Clio is awesome and really does the business, and there is no reason to think it won't be, they're will be a few people on here confessing they've what they had damned. If relatively small about of people b
hing about no manual won't be missed.When the 200 first appeared it was slagged off for being too heavy, not enough power blah blah... And now look, no one will have a bad word said against it.
Edited by HighwayStar on Tuesday 5th February 00:18
When people put their own money into buying a car, a lot of things go into their mind such as - if I sell this which will be the most desireable options and what will be the least annoying things to live with. Manual gearboxes aren't one of those. When people put their hands in their pockets seem to choose autos, or paddle shifters.
I certainly won't be trading my 172 anytime soon. I don't really understand what people are complaining about with manuals in traffic, it has genuinely never bothered me. And i thought that renaultsport was one of the star performers profit-wise in the renault business. I hate when a performance nameplate or brand gets diluted to chase the mainstream. We will have a softroader renaultsport variant next...
In fairness to Renault the hot/warm/performance market does seem to shifted away from manuals towards auto's and/or DCT's, with finances being tight and shift noticeable it probably does make economic sense not to bother with a manual anymore. I do wonder if RenaultSport initially planned on offering manual and DCT options.
Golf GTI/R32/R, S3, M135i all sell better in auto guise than manual, other obvious candidates (A1, Polo) have gone auto only or manual only (Fiesta, Corsa, Mini JCW). Only four years ago a manufacturer could have expected something around 2,000 to 3,000 pa in sales for a hot/warm/performance hatch in the UK now it's close to fifth of that. Models generating between between £3 and £7 million in UK sales are probably not really worthwhile exercises.
You have to wonder how long before manufacturers stop even bothering which would be real shame. It is a strange world when limited run specials outsell normal production models, I'm looking at you BMW 1M, Audi RS3, Golf Ed35.
Golf GTI/R32/R, S3, M135i all sell better in auto guise than manual, other obvious candidates (A1, Polo) have gone auto only or manual only (Fiesta, Corsa, Mini JCW). Only four years ago a manufacturer could have expected something around 2,000 to 3,000 pa in sales for a hot/warm/performance hatch in the UK now it's close to fifth of that. Models generating between between £3 and £7 million in UK sales are probably not really worthwhile exercises.
You have to wonder how long before manufacturers stop even bothering which would be real shame. It is a strange world when limited run specials outsell normal production models, I'm looking at you BMW 1M, Audi RS3, Golf Ed35.
R1gtr said:
Surely the biggest problem is if you buy one you will not be able to sell it for love nor money, the old one with manual box, and a pretty bombproof 2.0 litre engine was pretty cheap to run maintenance wise and pretty reliable by all accounts so was a popular choice for youngsters looking for a cheap entry into performance cars.
Can you imagine the costs involved to repair this pig ugly beast in 3 years or so (out of warranty) when it's gearbox implodes or turbo problems appear.
These potential pitfalls would prob put me off buying one second hand and out of warranty.
You know the 197/200 have a terribly unreliable gearbox yes?Can you imagine the costs involved to repair this pig ugly beast in 3 years or so (out of warranty) when it's gearbox implodes or turbo problems appear.
These potential pitfalls would prob put me off buying one second hand and out of warranty.
I reckon the new one will actually be an improvement.
Clios have always had excellent electrics as well... what could possibly go wrong
The NEDC test is the real reason for this. End of. And the eye watering penalties for going over the fleet average CO2 (94Euro/Gramme/car iirc).
If the dual clutch works properly, great! Forget all the macho bull, do you want to go back to crash boxes and manual ignition advance?
The marketers then jump in and shout that it's 0.00012 seconds faster round the ring.
If the dual clutch works properly, great! Forget all the macho bull, do you want to go back to crash boxes and manual ignition advance?
The marketers then jump in and shout that it's 0.00012 seconds faster round the ring.
Fabia vRS... I guess 2 reasons to buy it, DSG and twincharging are for people who don't research.
DSG has its problems (vide China case)
1.4 was (at least its initial versions) a reliability disaster.
Can I have my simple, reliable, manual car back instead of that computerised, automated toy that breaks way to often?
DSG has its problems (vide China case)
1.4 was (at least its initial versions) a reliability disaster.
Can I have my simple, reliable, manual car back instead of that computerised, automated toy that breaks way to often?
sw1000xg said:
The sooner manual goes away the better!
Heel'n'toe. Is that kiddie talk or something.
Only reason I don't want to buy a new Renault is it has NO auto/semi option!
Don't care about this rubbish about manual changes. I want SPEED, performance, and I don't want a slow clumsy manual getting in the way of the driving I love to do!
When Skyline used computers to keep stability people ridiculed it as being playstation on wheels.Heel'n'toe. Is that kiddie talk or something.
Only reason I don't want to buy a new Renault is it has NO auto/semi option!
Don't care about this rubbish about manual changes. I want SPEED, performance, and I don't want a slow clumsy manual getting in the way of the driving I love to do!
Behold, now (perhaps the same) people demand fully automated cars there they only need to press 2 pedals and turn the wheel. They welcome auto box, computer adjusted suspension, stability systems etc.
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