RE Chris Harris video: new Cayman
Discussion
J-P said:
The Pits said:
dank said:
Damn it ! Chris Harris should be a Porsche Salesman, just sold it to me too!
Looks amazing!
my point exactly.Looks amazing!
His influence over the easily-led is disturbing. Jaguar and Lotus have to work very hard to fight against the pre-conceptions that he is propagating. No paid advert can possibly compete with such a strong recommendation from someone so admired among car enthusiasts. If they're not paying him, they should be. His relentless promotion of porsches is worth a significant sum. Equally the whole 'Lotus is dead to me' saga is hugely and expensively damaging, nice touch to kick them when they're really down too. If he's going to promote an already globally dominant car maker could he at least have the decency not to slag off the struggling minnows?! Surely even to Chris Harris the world would be unremittingly dull if there really were no alternatives to porsches?!
Journalists used to at least pretend to be objective. Now it's 'the word according to Chris'.
I felt physically ill recently seeing some weak-minded arse declare his desire for a 'Chris Harris dream spec' Singer 911. Are there seriously people out there so tragic? Sadly yes and all they'll ever do is buy whatever car Chris Harris tells them too, hence my concern. If it was just one journo who apologetically admitted to a personal fondness for porsche cars then that's one thing but to declare them without equal it's grossly overstepping the mark. As is pedalling the blatant deception that the car costs between £45-50k.
The cayman may well be best in class for Chris but to agree with that you have to be totally ambivalent to where your car is made (and where your £60k goes and where else it could have gone) you have to like the current porsche design language, you have to be able to tolerate electric spoilers, electric steering and extortionate extras.
Buying a porsche is a victory for conservatism even if you end up with a porsche at least try some other cars at the same price point. Even if Chris Harris doesn't think there's any point.
If there are people who can't form their own opinion - what the hell has that got to do with CH? Your assertion also implies that only car enthusiasts buy cars - Who even knows CH outside of the tiny community of car nuts?
Car journos are followed because of their opinion - how can that possibly be objective? If somebody has driven a car, the whole point of the review is to get their opinion of it. You might agree, you might not but they are being paid to give their opinion.
Your last point is utter nonsense - what on earth has where your car is made got to do with whether or not a car is best in class? The amount of money you are spending is just one of the factors that define the class - otherwise you'd be comparing the new Mini GP to a 911 GT3 or MC Stradale as a class competitor.
It's also frankly bizarre that you make an assumption that when buying a Porsche, other cars are not tried. I had a go in an Evora before I bought the 911 - it wasn't as good IMHO.
This is a company that have lurched from disaster to crisis for at least 40 years. They still only sell cars to enthusiasts prepared to pay above the odds, and to make compromises in terms of refinement, reliability and usability in exchange for great steering and a good chassis resulting from their relatively light weight. In fact, they're still about where Porsche was in 1992/3. Far from kicking them while down, the British press have been enormously supportive, even in the face of decades of underperformance. Off the top of my head, I can recall raves greeting the S1 and 2 Elises, Esprits beating Ferraris in group tests, punches being pulled when the Evora was launched (finish & quality, nav., gear change etc), and a lot of excitement (tinged with a bit of 'WTF?') at last year's 5 car range launch. Yet in all that time the company has failed to generate the cash flow or finance to allow them to build cars that are going to challenge the leaders in their class. That's because they've failed to understand the market has changed since ~1964, when they launched the (expensive, lightweight, nicely handling, unreliable, noisy, unrefined, fuel efficient, proprietary engined (stop me when you've heard this before) Elan. Even the Elite/Eclat/Esprit efforts in the 70's weren't good enough.
Meanwhile Porsche got on with turning themselves into a company that sells 120,000 units p.a., have an ongoing commitment to motorsport, and generate massive amounts of cash. They've only been able to do this by making cars that are excellent. So excellent in fact, that they can sell thousands of them, not only to enthusiasts but to rich buyers of saloons and SUVs.
Its' not surprising that intelligent journalists like Harris celebrate the excellence that Porsche have achieved, and are realistic about Lotus' products and the company's strategy.
SS7
shoestring7 said:
Meanwhile Porsche got on with turning themselves into a company that sells 120,000 units p.a., have an ongoing commitment to motorsport, and generate massive amounts of cash. They've only been able to do this by making cars that are excellent. So excellent in fact, that they can sell thousands of them, not only to enthusiasts but to rich buyers of saloons and SUVs.
You could replace "Porsche" with "Kia" in that sentence and it would still all be true. That doesn't mean I'm going to sell my Lotus to buy a Kia. 
I have massive respect for the way that Porsche has gone about making an awful lot of money. It's just a shame that they have, in my opinion, done so at the expensive of building proper drivers' cars. Porsche make truly excellent cars... just not ones that I have much wish to drive.
I do agree that as a whole the British press aren't critical enough of Lotus, though. I think it doesn't help anyone, Lotus included, in the long run.
Edited by kambites on Friday 22 February 11:56
kambites said:
shoestring7 said:
Meanwhile Porsche got on with turning themselves into a company that sells 120,000 units p.a., have an ongoing commitment to motorsport, and generate massive amounts of cash. They've only been able to do this by making cars that are excellent. So excellent in fact, that they can sell thousands of them, not only to enthusiasts but to rich buyers of saloons and SUVs.
You could replace "Porsche" with "Kia" in that sentence and it would still all be true. That doesn't mean I'm going to sell my Lotus to buy a Kia. I have massive respect for the way that Porsche has gone about making an awful lot of money. It's just a shame that they have, in my opinion, done so at the expensive of building proper drivers' cars. Porsche make truly excellent cars... just not ones that I have much wish to drive.
I do agree that as a whole the British press aren't critical enough of Lotus, though. I think it doesn't help anyone, Lotus included, in the long run.
Edited by kambites on Friday 22 February 11:56
Anyone who thinks Porsche don't make 'drivers' cars (GT3, GT2, Boxster Spyder, Cayman R etc. etc.) needs to stick to their tupperware Toyota.
;-)
SS7
kambites said:
It's just a shame that they have, in my opinion, done so at the expensive of building proper drivers' cars.
Oh come on - No proper Porsche driver's cars? This review implies the new Cayman is one and surely you've heard of GT3, GT2, Spyder, CR etc.I'll concede that there are Lotuses that have more feel and even purer handling - so does a Caterham, but they don't compete as a complete package with Porsche sportscars you sacrifice a fair bit for handling purity!
kambites said:
I have massive respect for the way that Porsche has gone about making an awful lot of money. It's just a shame that they have, in my opinion, done so at the expensive of building proper drivers' cars. Porsche make truly excellent cars... just not ones that I have much wish to drive.
Having driven an Exige S RGB and GT3 RS, I know which I'd prefer...Edited by CJP80 on Friday 22 February 12:46
shoestring7 said:
Oh yeah, the world renown Kia Motorsports commitment.
Anyone who thinks Porsche don't make 'drivers' cars (GT3, GT2, Boxster Spyder, Cayman R etc. etc.) needs to stick to their tupperware Toyota.
;-)
SS7
So Lotus deserve to fail and everyone in the world should drive porsches. Is that really a more interesting world to live in?Anyone who thinks Porsche don't make 'drivers' cars (GT3, GT2, Boxster Spyder, Cayman R etc. etc.) needs to stick to their tupperware Toyota.
;-)
SS7
Isn't world domination enough? Do you really have to crush all the alternatives? Well it's very germanic I suppose.
Should there only be Starbucks coffee available? Does it follow that their coffee must be better?
Porsche do a good job at appealing to the masses by being very conservative. But that doesn't mean they cater for all tastes.
If rear-engined cars are so good, why doesn't anyone else do them?
Even Chris Harris said that the Cayman's engine location gives it advantages over the 911. If he said it, it must be true.
Edited by The Pits on Friday 22 February 14:39
The Pits said:
shoestring7 said:
Oh yeah, the world renown Kia Motorsports commitment.
Anyone who thinks Porsche don't make 'drivers' cars (GT3, GT2, Boxster Spyder, Cayman R etc. etc.) needs to stick to their tupperware Toyota.
;-)
SS7
So Lotus deserve to fail and everyone in the world should drive porsches. Is that really a more interesting world to live in?Anyone who thinks Porsche don't make 'drivers' cars (GT3, GT2, Boxster Spyder, Cayman R etc. etc.) needs to stick to their tupperware Toyota.
;-)
SS7
Isn't world domination enough? Do you really have to crush all the alternatives? Well it's very germanic I suppose.
Should there only be Starbucks coffee available? Does it follow that their coffee must be better?
Porsche do a good job at appealing to the masses by being very conservative. But that doesn't mean they cater for all tastes.
If rear-engined cars are so good, why doesn't anyone else do them?
Even Chris Harris said that the Cayman's engine location gives it advantages over the 911. If he said it, it must be true.
Who said anything about Lotus deserving to fail? Or implied that no alternatives to Porsches is a desirable outcome? I genuinely wanted to like the Lotus more than I did. As a new car it was simply too expensive for what it was as far as I was concerned. Fantastic used buy though!There's no doubt that Porsche do a lot of things very well, their cars are a very cohesive package - very few alternatives do this as well as Porsche, hence why they are so popular. Most people are not happy to buy an inferior product for a higher price. If ride / handling balance was all buyers cared about, then Lotus sales would be off the charts!
J-P said:
If ride / handling balance was all buyers cared about, then Lotus sales would be off the charts!
This is what Porsche get right and Lotus wrong, IMO. Lotus thing you can sell a car by making it handle exceptionally; Porsche think you can sell a car by making it do everything reasonably well. The sales figures tell us who's right.Most of Porsches products are extremely good, not because they do anything exceptionally well but because they do nothing badly.
J-P said:
The Pits said:
dank said:
Damn it ! Chris Harris should be a Porsche Salesman, just sold it to me too!
Looks amazing!
my point exactly.Looks amazing!
His influence over the easily-led is disturbing. Jaguar and Lotus have to work very hard to fight against the pre-conceptions that he is propagating. No paid advert can possibly compete with such a strong recommendation from someone so admired among car enthusiasts. If they're not paying him, they should be. His relentless promotion of porsches is worth a significant sum. Equally the whole 'Lotus is dead to me' saga is hugely and expensively damaging, nice touch to kick them when they're really down too. If he's going to promote an already globally dominant car maker could he at least have the decency not to slag off the struggling minnows?! Surely even to Chris Harris the world would be unremittingly dull if there really were no alternatives to porsches?!
Journalists used to at least pretend to be objective. Now it's 'the word according to Chris'.
I felt physically ill recently seeing some weak-minded arse declare his desire for a 'Chris Harris dream spec' Singer 911. Are there seriously people out there so tragic? Sadly yes and all they'll ever do is buy whatever car Chris Harris tells them too, hence my concern. If it was just one journo who apologetically admitted to a personal fondness for porsche cars then that's one thing but to declare them without equal it's grossly overstepping the mark. As is pedalling the blatant deception that the car costs between £45-50k.
The cayman may well be best in class for Chris but to agree with that you have to be totally ambivalent to where your car is made (and where your £60k goes and where else it could have gone) you have to like the current porsche design language, you have to be able to tolerate electric spoilers, electric steering and extortionate extras.
Buying a porsche is a victory for conservatism even if you end up with a porsche at least try some other cars at the same price point. Even if Chris Harris doesn't think there's any point.
If there are people who can't form their own opinion - what the hell has that got to do with CH? Your assertion also implies that only car enthusiasts buy cars - Who even knows CH outside of the tiny community of car nuts?
Car journos are followed because of their opinion - how can that possibly be objective? If somebody has driven a car, the whole point of the review is to get their opinion of it. You might agree, you might not but they are being paid to give their opinion.
Your last point is utter nonsense - what on earth has where your car is made got to do with whether or not a car is best in class? The amount of money you are spending is just one of the factors that define the class - otherwise you'd be comparing the new Mini GP to a 911 GT3 or MC Stradale as a class competitor.
It's also frankly bizarre that you make an assumption that when buying a Porsche, other cars are not tried. I had a go in an Evora before I bought the 911 - it wasn't as good IMHO.
I too tried 2-3 cars before getting my 911 on balance it was the best package for my needs I hadn't even heard of CH 3 years ago either.
kambites said:
J-P said:
If ride / handling balance was all buyers cared about, then Lotus sales would be off the charts!
This is what Porsche get right and Lotus wrong, IMO. Lotus thing you can sell a car by making it handle exceptionally; Porsche think you can sell a car by making it do everything reasonably well. The sales figures tell us who's right.Most of Porsches products are extremely good, not because they do anything exceptionally well but because they do nothing badly.
You are right they do nothing badly, but they do many things exceptionally well and to say otherwise is deeply unfair to the amount of work that they put into their product development.
The same people who cry out over perceived pro-Porsche bias are the ones who seem to blind themselves when it comes to the objective merits of each car.
FisiP1 said:
If you take the new 981/991 Cayman/911 generation for example: Engines are exceptional, interiors are exceptional, build quality and finish is exceptional, the depth of spec choices and options is exceptional, ride quality considering the sector is exceptional.
Completely disagree (except perhaps about the engine, that one might be a fair point). The interiors are fine but plenty of other cars match or better them; the build quality is good but again, no better than the best of the competition; the ride quality is poor.All manufacturers put a lot of effort into their product development, that doesn't change the fact that there are flaws in the end results. I have immense respect for Porsche's cars, they offer an incredible blend of abilities, debatably the best in the world, but in my experience they simply do not drive well enough for me to even consider one.
ETA: Just to point out I'm talking about the 997 and 987 generation, I have no experience of the later cars yet.
Edited by kambites on Friday 22 February 21:37
FisiP1 said:
If you take the new 981/991 Cayman/911 generation for example: Engines are exceptional, interiors are exceptional, build quality and finish is exceptional, the depth of spec choices and options is exceptional, ride quality considering the sector is exceptional.
.
Better engines than BMW's M engines, or Audi interiors & finish? Spec is pretty good on other premium marques too including heads up display. Ride quality/handling is good because all the cars mentioned are lighter relatively to most makes..
The gap between makes is very narrow, Porsche looks are way better than the others. And their marketing is supreme.
This is naiive in the extreme. High value cars are mainly emotional purchases, in fact anything other than a Golf TDi is strictly superfluous to requirements. It's an inherently irrational idea to buy anything else or spend any more money.
Porsches are first and foremost a 'wealth' and 'success' statement. The buyers like the 'prestige' that comes with the badge. They feel they've 'made it' the day they buy their first porsche. Almost no-one likes the fact that the 911 is rear engined. It sells in huge amounts inspite of the engine placement. I have two aunts with 911s and neither of them ever knew or cared where the engine was. However they loved the 'sporty' image.
Throw in conservative styling and a good reputation for build quality and a myth about good residuals and bingo. Nearly all things to nearly all people.
A Lotus badge cannot give you any of the above. To own one is to prioritize steering, handling, response, interaction, feel, feedback and chassis balance above all else. And clearly very, very few do. You also have to put up with ridicule from morons. You won't impress any women, ever. Nor anyone at the golf club. They are hard to get in and out of with much in the way of dignity. Sadly I don't think they'd sell many even if people only cared about ride and handling. The image just doesn't cut it for the majority. There's no slur quite as repellant to the image conscious as 'kit car'. Sadly being British offers no attraction to the UK market either.
But for the few of us with the required priority set, Lotus cars offer an oasis of analogue purity and simplicity in an increasingly digital and synthetic sector. The talent their engineers have is very under-valued. To lose Lotus would be a complete tragedy, one many porsche fans would never understand.
Porsches are first and foremost a 'wealth' and 'success' statement. The buyers like the 'prestige' that comes with the badge. They feel they've 'made it' the day they buy their first porsche. Almost no-one likes the fact that the 911 is rear engined. It sells in huge amounts inspite of the engine placement. I have two aunts with 911s and neither of them ever knew or cared where the engine was. However they loved the 'sporty' image.
Throw in conservative styling and a good reputation for build quality and a myth about good residuals and bingo. Nearly all things to nearly all people.
A Lotus badge cannot give you any of the above. To own one is to prioritize steering, handling, response, interaction, feel, feedback and chassis balance above all else. And clearly very, very few do. You also have to put up with ridicule from morons. You won't impress any women, ever. Nor anyone at the golf club. They are hard to get in and out of with much in the way of dignity. Sadly I don't think they'd sell many even if people only cared about ride and handling. The image just doesn't cut it for the majority. There's no slur quite as repellant to the image conscious as 'kit car'. Sadly being British offers no attraction to the UK market either.
But for the few of us with the required priority set, Lotus cars offer an oasis of analogue purity and simplicity in an increasingly digital and synthetic sector. The talent their engineers have is very under-valued. To lose Lotus would be a complete tragedy, one many porsche fans would never understand.
kambites said:
It's just a shame that they have, in my opinion, done so at the expensive of building proper drivers' cars. Porsche make truly excellent cars... just not ones that I have much wish to drive.
I'll call you on that one. Let's see your list of cars which you do "wish to drive" on the basis they are a better drive than the Porsche sportscars.kambites said:
FisiP1 said:
If you take the new 981/991 Cayman/911 generation for example: Engines are exceptional, interiors are exceptional, build quality and finish is exceptional, the depth of spec choices and options is exceptional, ride quality considering the sector is exceptional.
Completely disagree (except perhaps about the engine, that one might be a fair point). The interiors are fine but plenty of other cars match or better them; the build quality is good but again, no better than the best of the competition; the ride quality is poor.All manufacturers put a lot of effort into their product development, that doesn't change the fact that there are flaws in the end results. I have immense respect for Porsche's cars, they offer an incredible blend of abilities, debatably the best in the world, but in my experience they simply do not drive well enough for me to even consider one.
ETA: Just to point out I'm talking about the 997 and 987 generation, I have no experience of the later cars yet.
Edited by kambites on Friday 22 February 21:37
The Pits said:
A Lotus badge cannot give you any of the above. To own one is to prioritize steering, handling, response, interaction, feel, feedback and chassis balance above all else.
The snobbish "Lotus are so good that only a select few can appreciate them" argument is utter piffle. If the cars were up to muster enthusiasts would be buying them instead of ending up at the Porsche garage in search of a decent sportscar.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff