RE: Has turbocharging ruined the 911
Discussion
ORD said:
Fair enough. It was a bit of a stupid and grumpy thing to say. I would, however, be surprised if many of those who seems so eager to defend a Porsche with a blown 4 cylinder will actually spend their money on one.
Im hopefully going to get back into a Cayman this year, i will judge it after I've driven it, which is surely the only proper way to judge it.To an extent. Would you be interested if it was electric only? Or auto only? Or weighed 2000kg? Or was a diesel?
Everyone has a point at which they don't need to drive a car to know it isn't for them.
As for what else there is out there, the 2nd hand market is the only place to look. I cannot think of a single car under £50k that interests me (or over £50k, tbh). I imagine that my fun car will be older and older over time as the options dwindle, also meaning that the price you have to pay to stay in something good to drive will keep going up. Bugger!
Good point on Lotus, but just not an option for most buyers (and very overpriced new).
Everyone has a point at which they don't need to drive a car to know it isn't for them.
As for what else there is out there, the 2nd hand market is the only place to look. I cannot think of a single car under £50k that interests me (or over £50k, tbh). I imagine that my fun car will be older and older over time as the options dwindle, also meaning that the price you have to pay to stay in something good to drive will keep going up. Bugger!
Good point on Lotus, but just not an option for most buyers (and very overpriced new).
Ozzie Osmond said:
The question is, of course, what the "no 4-pots, N/A only" £40-£50k sportscar buyer would buy instead?
Suggestions?
Something second-hand, since that's about the only option. Or if you change "N/A only" to "not turbocharged", an Exige if you don't mind missing out on a bit of comfort for a more driver-focussed setup. Suggestions?
If there is a problem for Porsche at all (which I don't think there is, really) it'll be current owners keeping their cars rather than "upgrading". I'm sure the lower CO2 and higher perform figures will draw in more new buyers than the turbochargers and/or loss of cylinders loses them existing customers though.
If even a handful of existing customers go and buy an Evora or Exige instead, Porsche wont even notice but it'll double Lotus's sales figures.
Edited by kambites on Saturday 16th January 16:44
ORD said:
To an extent. Would you be interested if it was electric only? Or auto only? Or weighed 2000kg? Or was a diesel?
Everyone has a point at which they don't need to drive a car to know it isn't for them.
As for what else there is out there, the 2nd hand market is the only place to look. I cannot think of a single car under £50k that interests me (or over £50k, tbh). I imagine that my fun car will be older and older over time as the options dwindle, also meaning that the price you have to pay to stay in something good to drive will keep going up. Bugger!
Good point on Lotus, but just not an option for most buyers (and very overpriced new).
I agree with your first point. To be fair I'm not saying you should like it or have any inclination to try it, thats your perogative, I personally am keeping an open mind on it till i can drive one, i may hate it, but thats for me to find out. fortunately theres still quire a few NA 6 caymans out there.Everyone has a point at which they don't need to drive a car to know it isn't for them.
As for what else there is out there, the 2nd hand market is the only place to look. I cannot think of a single car under £50k that interests me (or over £50k, tbh). I imagine that my fun car will be older and older over time as the options dwindle, also meaning that the price you have to pay to stay in something good to drive will keep going up. Bugger!
Good point on Lotus, but just not an option for most buyers (and very overpriced new).
kambites said:
ORD said:
The engines would put me off, but none of the rest of the cheapness would bother me.
If the only option in the competition was a turbocharged four-pot, the Exige's engine would be one of its biggest plus-points for me. MrBarry123 said:
The rear end of these is gorgeous.
Whoever suggested the change of exhaust position was a genius.
There's certainly a pleasing lack of clutter about the rear-end detailing, especially compared to the daft sticky out bits of plastic and fake vents on most modern "sporty" cars. It would look better still without the funny little vent behind the rear wheel, but I suppose that's probably there to draw air over the intercoolers? Whoever suggested the change of exhaust position was a genius.
I had 911's in a row until the 997 30k a year in each one, If I had to have ONE every day sports car then it would probably have to be a 991, or the Granturismo.
Was lent a 991 a few weeks ago, couldn't get excited about it, fast but not that exciting almost like an Audi on steroids.
I am lucky enough not to have to go the one car route and the fun cars always feel more of an event to drive than the 991, not necessarily better just more of an event if that makes sense.
Phib
Was lent a 991 a few weeks ago, couldn't get excited about it, fast but not that exciting almost like an Audi on steroids.
I am lucky enough not to have to go the one car route and the fun cars always feel more of an event to drive than the 991, not necessarily better just more of an event if that makes sense.
Phib
kambites said:
I'm sure some people do because they have no particular preference. What's baffling is that some people don't seem to be able to believe that some other people don't need to drive it to know.
We have a winner.A lot of the arguments seem at crossed purposes on this thread and not entirely necessary. But that is just IMO
Has FI ruined the 911? Not entirely (i.e. not completely, for everyone). The 991.2S is still fantastically engineered, fast and competent sporting car that has merit and relevance and is capable of being enjoying as a driving machine. However, as with all substantial changes to car that has so much history, not everyone will laud it as the second coming. That's how I read the article at least.
Is it possible to have a personal preference for / against something? Yes.
Is it possible for that preference, shaped by experience, to inform a completely valid view of something as yet untried? Yes.
Would that view be better informed by experiencing that specific something? Possibly but not necessarily in my view. I think it depends. To make an objective assessment of a car as a whole, including as an ownership proposition, possibly yes. But the merit of the car / any part of it in your subjective opinion, whether based on empirical knowledge or fantastic whim? Not really. Annoying for some but true in my view.
Most importantly:
Is this a website for people that enjoy cars / driving and talking about the same? Last I checked!
Do we all have to agree all the time? No, we don't.
C'mon folks, I've not driven many "high end" or "luxury" cars (nor am I in the market for one, yet) but I absolutely know that modern cars are engineered to a level that is mind-bogglingly thorough, innovative and interesting, if not always conducive to my personal driving enjoyment and satisfaction.
I also know that Porsche can generally ace anything it turns its hand to (except buying VW
) and that the 991.2 engines are likely to be among the best FI units going for a sporting application (like cmoose I am more than sceptical - I'll reserve judgement on the 4 cylinder units, as whilst they are unlikely to be any less good in terms of the overall engineering package, it is not what I would choose to power). But I suspect that even if they are that good (probably better), the flip side is that their character / power delivery is likely to prove to be devastatingly effective and yet not really to my taste. Good throttle response is important to me (crisp, clean, linear and proportionate) but so is feeling like the car rewards you for some extra effort (whatever happened to pedalling and stirring the cogs to rouse some revs?), rather than feeling like an electric motor with added NVH. Lots of torque from next-to-zero revs is great for just getting around, I guess, assuming you're not otherwise limited (traction, space, range, bad neck / back etc.). That said, it feels better suited to application in a big HGV / public transport / something for towing / electric city cars / forklift trucks. I know without trying the 991.2 that if it feels anything like that (which it's likely to when compared to the 911s I have driven), it will not be to my taste, nor what I would ideally want a 911 to be like. That might make me sound like a bit of curmudgeonly luddite, but it's my opinion and it's not intended in any way to devalue anyone else's!
ETA - agree with kambites' and ORD's posts above. Imagine if Evora and Exige sales doubled overnight - that would be great for Lotus.
EDIT 2: Sheesh, what a mess!
Edited by Diesel Meister on Saturday 16th January 20:09
Edited by Diesel Meister on Sunday 17th January 23:48
yonex said:
Porsche have always delivered great handling cars, I am not entirely sure that you can measure it against something like a GTR which is far less involving and will likely cost a good deal more to run daily, weaker residuals etc.
I seriously doubt a GTR is "far less involving" -where did you hear that ? .Don't let the Tech fool you.ORD said:
You also only get 2 small back seats. What a rip off. A Mini-bus is way better value.
See what I did there? It's a perfect analogy.
The Nissan GTR is way better value whichever way you look at it though because it offers similar performance to the 911's halo model's(Turbo and Turbo S) for the price of the 911's base model...the only people that get ripped off are the ones that buy 911's. See what I did there? It's a perfect analogy.
You pay for the badge with a 911 and that is the bottom line and it's one of the few occasions where you don't get what you pay for.
cerb4.5lee said:
The Nissan GTR is way better value whichever way you look at it though because it offers similar performance to the 911's halo model's(Turbo and Turbo S) for the price of the 911's base model...the only people that get ripped off are the ones that buy 911's.
You pay for the badge with a 911 and that is the bottom line and it's one of the few occasions where you don't get what you pay for.
Image has a cost - image making takes a very long time .You pay for the badge with a 911 and that is the bottom line and it's one of the few occasions where you don't get what you pay for.
Sam All said:
Image has a cost - image making takes a very long time .
I hear what you are saying but the image of a 911 isn't without criticism and I really like 911's and would certainly like to own one in the future for sure at some stage but I also love the GTR, and I love it's road presence and performance and it's badge doesn't worry me one bit but I would imagine someone in the market for a Porsche wouldn't consider a Nissan and that is fair enough. cerb4.5lee said:
ORD said:
You also only get 2 small back seats. What a rip off. A Mini-bus is way better value.
See what I did there? It's a perfect analogy.
The Nissan GTR is way better value whichever way you look at it though because it offers similar performance to the 911's halo model's(Turbo and Turbo S) for the price of the 911's base model...the only people that get ripped off are the ones that buy 911's. See what I did there? It's a perfect analogy.
You pay for the badge with a 911 and that is the bottom line and it's one of the few occasions where you don't get what you pay for.
(1) I look pleasant-looking cars. The GTR is absurdly ugly.
(2) I want a car that fits on our roads. The GTR is enormous.
(3) AWD is for rally cars and SUVs.
(4) I like engines. The GTR has a very dull turbo engine. The 911 has (until now) had one of the most exciting engines available in a road car.
(5) I could not care less about pub power and torque figures. Nor do I care about racing at traffic lights.
The 911 is pretty much universally regarded as being fantastic to drive (and it is, in my view), so your "badge" nonsense is just inverted car snobbery.
ORD said:
You are really struggling with this. You are working on the hypothesis that everyone should want the fastest available car at any given price point and that, if they do not, they must be buying their car "for the badge". Here are some of the reasons that I would buy a 911 (and have) and would never even consider buying a GTR.
(1) I look pleasant-looking cars. The GTR is absurdly ugly.
(2) I want a car that fits on our roads. The GTR is enormous.
(3) AWD is for rally cars and SUVs.
(4) I like engines. The GTR has a very dull turbo engine. The 911 has (until now) had one of the most exciting engines available in a road car.
(5) I could not care less about pub power and torque figures. Nor do I care about racing at traffic lights.
The 911 is pretty much universally regarded as being fantastic to drive (and it is, in my view), so your "badge" nonsense is just inverted car snobbery.
I agree with this, i aspire to own a 911 but have absolutely no desire to own a GTR they just leave me cold im afraid.(1) I look pleasant-looking cars. The GTR is absurdly ugly.
(2) I want a car that fits on our roads. The GTR is enormous.
(3) AWD is for rally cars and SUVs.
(4) I like engines. The GTR has a very dull turbo engine. The 911 has (until now) had one of the most exciting engines available in a road car.
(5) I could not care less about pub power and torque figures. Nor do I care about racing at traffic lights.
The 911 is pretty much universally regarded as being fantastic to drive (and it is, in my view), so your "badge" nonsense is just inverted car snobbery.
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