RE: Alpine A110 - Geneva 2017

[bcr5784]

jonby said:

They have made a big deal about the lightweight speaker cones - I suppose they could have a heavier speaker in the standard car but I can't see them having no stereo and I'm not even sure it's worth the cost saving of having two different speaker options

It's rather more likely, I think, that, if there is a difference, that the standard car would have the lighter speakers - the weight of a speaker is largely in the magnet rather than the cone - and better speakers generally have bigger magnets. A possibility is that the PE could have a sub woofer, which could be quite heavy.

[jonby]

bcr5784 said:

jonby said:

They have made a big deal about the lightweight speaker cones - I suppose they could have a heavier speaker in the standard car but I can't see them having no stereo and I'm not even sure it's worth the cost saving of having two different speaker options

It's rather more likely, I think, that, if there is a difference, that the standard car would have the lighter speakers - the weight of a speaker is largely in the magnet rather than the cone - and better speakers generally have bigger magnets. A possibility is that the PE could have a sub woofer, which could be quite heavy.

that's logical, but I have the benefit of extra info ! At geneva, they made the point that working with Focal, they had developed a stereo sysem that only needs 4 drivers - 2 tweeters (on the dash) and 2 midrange/woofers (in the doors). That's 100% definite the set up in the LE car. The midrange units are light because of using woven linen for the cones. I agree about the magnets, but once they've gone to all that effort to save weight in the cone, it wouldn't make sense to then have a heavier magnet in the LE car. I have to assume it will be same speakers in base & LE cars

Reversing camera on LE cars will add a little weight I guess

It makes sense if LE cars weigh more because of a little luxury or gadgets, but the speakers don't appear to fall in to that category

[bcr5784]

jonby said:

that's logical, but I have the benefit of extra info ! At geneva, they made the point that working with Focal, they had developed a stereo sysem that only needs 4 drivers - 2 tweeters (on the dash) and 2 midrange/woofers (in the doors). That's 100% definite the set up in the LE car. The midrange units are light because of using woven linen for the cones. I agree about the magnets, but once they've gone to all that effort to save weight in the cone, it wouldn't make sense to then have a heavier magnet in the LE car. I have to assume it will be same speakers in base & LE cars

Reversing camera on LE cars will add a little weight I guess

It makes sense if LE cars weigh more because of a little luxury or gadgets, but the speakers don't appear to fall in to that category

Interesting. I still wouldn't be surprised if the base car had a different speaker system. Focal are a pretty high end player in the world of hifi (if not that well known in the UK) - it would be surprising if, for example, a Cayman came with Bose as standard (and Focal are both up-market and far better regarded than Bose in the domestic market)

[CABC]

saw it in the flesh.... very nice. good proportions, clean looks and fine details. I liked that it was purposeful and distinctive yet lacked the fussy over design of so many new cars (notably Honda). Form and function.
Hope it drives well.

[bcr5784]

One can't read too much into a promo video, but listening to video on the Alpine website the exhaust both outside and (very briefly, but more importantly inside) the car sounded quite good. Personally could do without the (seemingly obligatory) pops and bangs on the overrun, but to my ears at least, much more pleasant than the 718 Porsche. So, promising.

[Kolbenkopp]

Yeah, that vid is short -- but again -- quite promising. I would not mind the overrun sound antics much, pretty sure that's only active in sports mode, and at least the sound isn't totally fake / piped through speakers. What's also nice to see is some hints of fluid suspension at work over that less than perfect tarmac. Looks like they studied what makes the Lotus cars so good? IIRC they used a couple of Elises as base for their test mules...

Some interesting material popping up on the net. The EVO interview Jonby linked to is really good (thanks!). There's also a longish one (in French) [1] with CEO Michael van der Sande that offers some insight. Couple of bits from that:

• They did not expect to have all the PE slots allocated in about 5 days. France was gone in just two days. MvdS sounded fairly genuinely surprised at that. And obviously quite happy .

• The reporters tried to get some production volume estimates out of him. Best they could get is "we are aiming for thousands per year, not tens of thousands".

• They really dig the historical link to the Dieppe plant, so production of the new A110 had to happen there. Home of Alpine, built every specimen there since 69. Name of the plant / legal entity is still 'Société d'Automobile Alpine'. MvdS also sounding quite proud of the expert work force.

• Big IF, but in case it is such a success that it squeezes Clio / (future) Megane RS volumes, they are prepared to upgrade the factory, or even move some RS related workloads off site. Current capacity is good though after recent investments.

• So far Dieppe is either using finished shells for the RS cars that come ready from other factories, or for their race cars, things are done more or less from scratch on site.

• Which means they needed a new body shop for the Alpine. The new A110 bits will be glued, welded and riveted and most of that will be fully automated. The setup is ready and they started using the new robots to build prototype cars.

• Similar story for the paint shop. What they had they thought was not good enough for the standards they are trying to achieve with Alpine. So they invested in a renewal + more automation. All in all, they are in process of getting things ready for volume production in third trimester of 17.

• Asked why there's not red colour choice for the PE, MvdS said they expect the brand aficionados will pick their PE in blue, but wanted to offer a bit of choice with the white and black. And black seemed to be more popular than the red which he agrees would have been more historically correct. There will be more colour choice after the launch edition.

• Thing is a bit a symbol of national pride at the moment, so he was asked about the 'Frenchiness' of the car and its components. He said "you can choose where to design a car, you can choose where to assemble it. But if you want to source the best tech, you need to buy globally". "No French outfit makes wheels like Fuchs, and the special rear calipers needed Brembo's expertise". "If there's something good available locally we will source from France, but we will not compromise the quality of the car."

• Engine is a new Renault Nissan alliance design, A110 is the first application and gets a specific turbo charger, air intake and light weight 'active' sports exhaust. On which they have spent a lot of hours for the sound design.

• Getrag box will have bespoke ratios for the A110 that take into account the weight of the car.

• They don't think they'll add power soon because think it's quite fast as it is.

• No manual box planned, they don't want to do it all but aim at providing one really good offer.

Don't need to be a professional skeptic to take all of this, coming from a CEO pandering a new product, with a huge load of NaCl...

But I find their enthusiasm and what they've shown of the car so far quite convincing. They are even coming up with some really creative excuses on 'why no manual box'. Cost isn't mentioned of course, but the 'total system weight' is allegedly better with a DKG' compared to the total MT weight impact .

And I think it would have been much easier to just make a TT style FWD coupé, based on the upcoming Mégane RS, for 90%+ of the 'halo' effect they will get with this more genuine take on a new A110.

But they didn't. So more power to them. Allez les bleus !

[1] https://www.automotivpress.fr/salon-de-geneve-2017...

Edited by Kolbenkopp on Friday 17th March 02:41

Edited by Kolbenkopp on Friday 17th March 02:42

[bcr5784]

Interesting stuff. I've been trying to glean/theorise as much info on the spec as I could and doing comparisons with the Cayman on price.

In no particular order (as they say):

1) Looks like the paddles are on steering column (unlike the Cayman) - for a road car I think it's a distinctly better arrangement.

2) Can't see any airbags, but I assume it must have at least 2 - even the Elise has that, but the Cayman has 6 I think

3) I notice that the Alfa C4 which goes to America and Australia is much heavier than the European offering because of different crash protection requirements - might explain why they are not planning to market the Alpine in America (at least at the moment). Some of the comments on real weights might have been directed at the Alfa, which doesn't look that much lighter when equipped to the same level even in the European spec. Does make the weight of the Alpine look like a big achievement if it reaches production without putting on weight. (I would expect it should have gone through crash tests by now, but haven't seen any mention).

5) I assume the PE aircon is climate (I think I see temperature figures on the dial)

4) I compared the price of the PE with a similarly equipped base Cayman (I know it's supposed to be as quick to 60mph as the S, but I doubt it will be any quicker to 100mph than the base car and is down on its, admittedly academic, top speed). A (blue!) Cayman, which has just gone up in price, with as far as I can figure similar options to the PE comes out at £53k. It's a bit variable - the Cayman has stuff like a glovebox, cupholders, (probably) more airbags, more speakers and more trim so the comparison favours the Alpine. I would suggest that is an upper bound for the UK price of the PE.

[anonymous-user]

IMO the plain fact that you can go out and buy the latest mid-engine 300 bhp Boxster/Cayman for £40k limits many manufacturers' sportscar aspirations in UK. It's astounding value.

[bcr5784]

rockin said:

IMO the plain fact that you can go out and buy the latest mid-engine 300 bhp Boxster/Cayman for £40k limits many manufacturers' sportscar aspirations in UK. It's astounding value.

In many respects the 718 Cayman is still astounding value - and in terms of bang per buck, better value than its 981 predecessor. However the press is pretty much unanimous that the 781 engine is nothing like as nice as the previous 6 cylinder. I have to agree having had a 781 for the day (I much preferred the engine in my two Subarus too). That won't stop the 718 outselling the Alpine - the Porsche brand image is too strong. However, it does give Alpine a chance to make a real dent in the 718 sales if it is sensibly priced.

Of course the A110 may prove the huge disappointment the 4C was, but I've yet to see anything to suggest that. Let me put it this way - would I replace my 981S Cayman with a 718? Absolutely no chance. Might I CONSIDER an A110? Yes! - which is why I put my deposit down.

[Quickmoose]

The 4C hasn't been a 'huge disappointment' the owners whose reviews I have read...
It has disappointing aspects....which the Porsche now has too.....and no doubt the A110 will have them. (and the Elise)
4cyl, circa 2.0, DCT.
Sounds rubbish from the get go.
Approaching 300BHP per tonne though?
carbon tub?
Distinctive styling?
Unassisted steering for a change?

Sign me up for any of them...

[bcr5784]

Quickmoose said:

The 4C hasn't been a 'huge disappointment' the owners whose reviews I have read...
It has disappointing aspects....which the Porsche now has too.....and no doubt the A110 will have them. (and the Elise)
4cyl, circa 2.0, DCT.
Sounds rubbish from the get go.
Approaching 300BHP per tonne though?
carbon tub?
Distinctive styling?
Unassisted steering for a change?

Sign me up for any of them...

Unfortunately it seems to be less than the sum of its parts. This what Road and Track said this when comparing the 4C with Elise. And it's typical.

"The Lotus's bones might be nearly 20 years old, but the car still gives Alfa's glamorous newcomer and its fancy carbon chassis a swift lesson in what matters. Who cares if you're sitting in a composite wicker basket if the steering isn't up to scratch? "

You expect the 4C to be a much rawer experience than a Cayman, but given all the parts it ought to drive better than an Elise. And why is it 6' 2" wide?!!!

Personally I want something less raw than an(other) Elise - great car 20 years ago but showing its age now. The Alpine might fit the bill for me - more refined and practical than the Elise, but more fun and engaging than my 981 (terrific car that it is). We shall see.

[Shoegrip]

Not sure how relevant this is but I had a Boxster at the same time as the Mrs had an Elise so a perfect situation to compare the 2 side by side long term.

The Elise was massively more engaging and rewarding in every way.

The Boxster went because it was dull, the Elise as we got too old and knackered (even though the car held up well).

If the A110 gave a compromise between those cars, it will be a great

And let's face it, Alpine have always produced great cars.

[blueg33]

I was disappointed by the 4c and that's ultimately why I haven't paid a deposit on the Alpine, I want to drive it first.

Just specced a Cayman S online to match my Evora £74k! That gives you a slightly higher spec than the Alpine PE appears to have (excluding PDK)

[bcr5784]

blueg33 said:

I was disappointed by the 4c and that's ultimately why I haven't paid a deposit on the Alpine, I want to drive it first.

Just specced a Cayman S online to match my Evora £74k! That gives you a slightly higher spec than the Alpine PE appears to have (excluding PDK)

I suspect you are are a half empty person! I took the half full view option, on the grounds that it just might be great .

I don't think the PE is really aimed at either the Evora or Cayman S.

[blueg33]

bcr5784 said:

blueg33 said:

I was disappointed by the 4c and that's ultimately why I haven't paid a deposit on the Alpine, I want to drive it first.

Just specced a Cayman S online to match my Evora £74k! That gives you a slightly higher spec than the Alpine PE appears to have (excluding PDK)

I suspect you are are a half empty person! I took the half full view option, on the grounds that it just might be great .

I don't think the PE is really aimed at either the Evora or Cayman S.

Not really, infant to drive any car before I commit to buy. Performance is similar to both. The point I was making is that the Alp is probably good value. Alpine have made it clear that the car is to compete with Cayman

[bcr5784]

blueg33 said:

Not really, infant to drive any car before I commit to buy. Performance is similar to both. The point I was making is that the Alp is probably good value. Alpine have made it clear that the car is to compete with Cayman

I certainly wouldn't buy any car without trying it (without risk) before buying it either - but paying your deposit doesn't involve any risk, just a bit of loss of interest on your 2000Euros. The PE may include desirable options at a "discounted" price and command better residuals - or NOT. I'm taking a punt, but understand why others might not feel it's worth the "bet".

[jonby]

bcr5784 said:

blueg33 said:

Not really, infant to drive any car before I commit to buy. Performance is similar to both. The point I was making is that the Alp is probably good value. Alpine have made it clear that the car is to compete with Cayman

I certainly wouldn't buy any car without trying it (without risk) before buying it either - but paying your deposit doesn't involve any risk, just a bit of loss of interest on your 2000Euros. The PE may include desirable options at a "discounted" price and command better residuals - or NOT. I'm taking a punt, but understand why others might not feel it's worth the "bet".

As you say, placing a deposit is effectively no risk and only potential upside.

I'm not expecting the PE edition to suddenly give me a huge profit, but it gets me the car that much sooner and I suspect, will offer much greater value than the base model when you look at the options included. Presumably the pricing of the base model may be partly influenced by sales & journo reviews - PE sold out very quickly, so lets wait till some of the journos have driven the car. I don't rely on the reviews as my opinions often differ, but there's no question they are very influential - just look at all the opinions on 4C based solely on reviews rather than first hand experience of actually driving the car

For those comparing to a Cayman, the PE Alpine has full LEDs, rear parking camera, DCT transmission, bucket seats, cruise, metallic paint, sports exhaust,etc - that adds up to £10kish on the Porsche. Of course some may not care about those options and in the instance of transmission, may prefer the manual that Alpine don't offer but on a like for like basis, the Alpine will be far cheaper. On the Alpine stand at Geneva, they told me that with French pricing, they had specced up like for like on the Porsche configurator and there was a £13k price difference

Having said all that, I'm not sure Alpine will win many sales, especially in the UK, on price difference. This is a low volume car trying to offer a point of difference at a competitive(ish) price. They have already said in interviews they see this as a 3rd/4th/xth car for owners. If you want one car only, that will be your DD, whilst you can use the Alpine/4C/Lotus, for most people those cars are too raw and the Cayman (with regular seats) makes more sense, especially outside the world of PH.

As ever, this will be all about the drive and as the chassis/suspension/noise/wheels/brakes/weight/seats all look on paper very appealing, a lot of this will be down to the gearbox & engine. If it's no good, I'll bail and if it's great, I'll be a happy camper

[RBH58]

Ditto on the 4C. A great concept tragically underdeveloped by Alfa. It's quite possibly the most disappointing car I've ever driven (I've driven 3 of them). Yes I know there are aftermarket fixes for the suspension issues...but when you are forking out that sort of money you shouldn't have to "fix it". I have a feeling that the A110 is going to crap all over the 4C dynamically. Will that make a difference to the "badge snobs"? Probably not.

[bcr5784]

jonby said:

For those comparing to a Cayman, the PE Alpine has full LEDs, rear parking camera, DCT transmission, bucket seats, cruise, metallic paint, sports exhaust,etc - that adds up to £10kish on the Porsche. Of course some may not care about those options and in the instance of transmission, may prefer the manual that Alpine don't offer but on a like for like basis, the Alpine will be far cheaper. On the Alpine stand at Geneva, they told me that with French pricing, they had specced up like for like on the Porsche configurator and there was a £13k price difference

I'd have to think that price difference is relative to the S not the base Cayman. While they make great play of the 0-60mph time, in reality the 0-100mph is more relavent. A 4C has similar power and a bit less weight and is as fast to 60 as a Cayman S. However 0-100 it's left for dead by an S and is on a par with a base Cayman (and still 10mph down on top speed). The A110 will likely be similar. As I say above compared with a base Cayman the pricing is much closer particularly when you take into account the plethora of minor things (air bags, cup holders, internal stowage, power sockets and extra trim) that the Cayman has.

Another little snippet I found in this month's Evo - the electric power steering is (unlike the Cayman) column rather than rack mounted. Lighter mechanism, almost certainly, but probably not the best for feel. Of course, weighing less, the Alpine can make do with less assistance which might even things up ( particularly if they use less caster - the Cayman uses a massive 8 degrees). While the 718 demonstrates that EPAS can produce a decent steering system, it's not anywhere near as good as an Elise.

Edited by bcr5784 on Saturday 18th March 08:24

Edited by bcr5784 on Saturday 18th March 09:21

Edited by bcr5784 on Saturday 18th March 09:37

Edited by bcr5784 on Saturday 18th March 14:03

[Shoegrip]

The A110 got a brief mention on Top Gear. Not very knowledgeable comments and hinted they thought it was overpriced against the Cayman.

Some celebrity I'd never heard of thought it wasn't a good idea naming a car after a toilet cleaner.

Never heard of A110 toilet cleaner before.