Bmw 4 series spun out of control m25
Discussion
Robberto said:
I don't have tips or advice to give and I don't want to scream at you about road conditions and all that stuff.
But I would like to thank you for posting this. I have a german rwd (it's also my first rwd car) and do somewhat subscribe to the incorrect attitude of "German engineering is an extra layer of protection". Maybe not to the extent of doing 90 on a wet motorway, but this reminder of physics > engineering has made me reevaluate my driving in all conditions.
Physics>engineering? Funny, you need to study physics to do engineering! But I would like to thank you for posting this. I have a german rwd (it's also my first rwd car) and do somewhat subscribe to the incorrect attitude of "German engineering is an extra layer of protection". Maybe not to the extent of doing 90 on a wet motorway, but this reminder of physics > engineering has made me reevaluate my driving in all conditions.
Mike335i said:
swerni said:
Utter b
ks.
We are more than capable of leaning without experiencing it ourself.
What has he learned? Don't drive so fast in the wet? Must of us realise that without having to spin on the M25
I don't need to crash a car at 150mph to understand the likely outcome.
No not utter bks.We are more than capable of leaning without experiencing it ourself.
What has he learned? Don't drive so fast in the wet? Must of us realise that without having to spin on the M25
I don't need to crash a car at 150mph to understand the likely outcome.
ks, the hardest hitting lessons in life are the ones that directly affect us. Can't you remember being young, invincible and feeling "that won't ever happen to me?"A near death experience will really shake you up and cause you evaluate things differently. For most this will be their first accident, this chap got lucky in that his accident did result in any damage or injury. It makes the danger real, not just text book.
So yeah, Chestrockwell, you drove like an idiot and nearly paid the ultimate price. But good on you for posting about it publicly and reminding us all of the danger.
I for one am glad you told your tale.
Edited by Mike335i on Saturday 11th November 09:12
Corsa's can and will aquaplane, many years ago I was traveling along the M1 in a Audi 100 quattro,
conditions were atrocious, rivers of water crossing the road, my speed was down to 60mph and I was considering dropping it down further, when a Corsa's passed me doing about 80 with 4 young lads in it,
I mentioned to the wife that the narrow tyres would help, anyway half a mile further on here is the Corsa's on top of a high embankment park next to a fence with the lads getting out,
understanding your car in different situations is important, with the TVR if I lift fully of the eccelerator there is a chance due to torque that in the wet the back wheels will lock up, interesting when there is no ABS, Traction control stability control or airbags to look after you, it makes you think about the conditions,
When conditions are bad I switch to minimal inputs to the brakes eccelerator and steering, this reduces the work the tyres have to do.
Thank op for posting there has been a lot of good advice on here, plenty of things to think about.
conditions were atrocious, rivers of water crossing the road, my speed was down to 60mph and I was considering dropping it down further, when a Corsa's passed me doing about 80 with 4 young lads in it,
I mentioned to the wife that the narrow tyres would help, anyway half a mile further on here is the Corsa's on top of a high embankment park next to a fence with the lads getting out,
understanding your car in different situations is important, with the TVR if I lift fully of the eccelerator there is a chance due to torque that in the wet the back wheels will lock up, interesting when there is no ABS, Traction control stability control or airbags to look after you, it makes you think about the conditions,
When conditions are bad I switch to minimal inputs to the brakes eccelerator and steering, this reduces the work the tyres have to do.
Thank op for posting there has been a lot of good advice on here, plenty of things to think about.
Pica-Pica said:
Robberto said:
I don't have tips or advice to give and I don't want to scream at you about road conditions and all that stuff.
But I would like to thank you for posting this. I have a german rwd (it's also my first rwd car) and do somewhat subscribe to the incorrect attitude of "German engineering is an extra layer of protection". Maybe not to the extent of doing 90 on a wet motorway, but this reminder of physics > engineering has made me reevaluate my driving in all conditions.
Physics>engineering? Funny, you need to study physics to do engineering! But I would like to thank you for posting this. I have a german rwd (it's also my first rwd car) and do somewhat subscribe to the incorrect attitude of "German engineering is an extra layer of protection". Maybe not to the extent of doing 90 on a wet motorway, but this reminder of physics > engineering has made me reevaluate my driving in all conditions.
It's a bit crap that the UK doesn't take drivers out and simulate aqua planning. Watched a clip years back about the rights and wrongs. No brakes hold the wheel straight and let the car recover. Basically don't try and compensate. Obviously don't push your luck in the wet in the first place.
I once aquaplaned at 65mph just after over taking a lorry on a wet motorway (Vauxhall Calibra, all round st car). There wasn't an excessive amount of standing water and the car recovered before I'd had time to poo myself, probably moved half a lane into lane one. Some months later I discovered that the rear suspension was miles out of whack and after having some parts replaced it was a big improvement in the dry and the wet. Never forgotten the lesson about standing water now, and as I regularly do the M69 which is a nightmare for clearing water in the wet I usually just sit behind a lorry and take it easy.
t car). There wasn't an excessive amount of standing water and the car recovered before I'd had time to poo myself, probably moved half a lane into lane one. Some months later I discovered that the rear suspension was miles out of whack and after having some parts replaced it was a big improvement in the dry and the wet. Never forgotten the lesson about standing water now, and as I regularly do the M69 which is a nightmare for clearing water in the wet I usually just sit behind a lorry and take it easy.Chestrockwell said:
I checked the tyres, there rears are on at least 3 mil, maybe more, the front left one is on also 3 And the other is on at least 6 as I replaced it a few months ago.
Tyres are manufacturer bridge stone potenza runflats, 225 front 255 rear.
Runflats are just plain dangerous in the wet. I bought a 130i this summer, and one of the first things I did was ditch em (Bridgestone Potenza). Now running Continental non-runflats. I'm not talking about aquaplaning specifically, just wet weather handling in general. On runflats my car got sideways, driving gently, soon as there was any rain on the road surface. They're dangerous on any torquey RWD car.Tyres are manufacturer bridge stone potenza runflats, 225 front 255 rear.
The thing is, at the time, I didn’t think I was at fault, when I started the thread, I thought what I was doing was completely normal, I did not anticipate that happening and I didn’t know it was possible! I’m not taking the blame away from myself because it’s very clear that it was my fault now that I am informed but should this be the case?
I was never taught how to drive on the motorway when I was still a learner nor was I informed of the risks of driving on the motorway during heavy rain, I vaguely remember my theory test and the only part I remember about driving when raining was the stopping distance doubling. This of course is common sense and I never speed when it’s raining while driving through built up areas, even if it’s clear, there could be loads of potential hazards and it just isn’t worth it but last night, on an empty m25, I didn’t think it was the same thing as I could see at least half a mile ahead.
I had to go on to the A3 today so I took it easy and didn’t exceed 70 mph, spent most of my time in the inside lane just looking at the road and the cars going past, looking at the speeds and the tyres etc, all while also keeping my eyes on the road. A few cars went past doing at least 90-100 in the outside lane and just put it into perspective of how much of a difference that 20 mph can make, my eyes are wide open now.
I was never taught how to drive on the motorway when I was still a learner nor was I informed of the risks of driving on the motorway during heavy rain, I vaguely remember my theory test and the only part I remember about driving when raining was the stopping distance doubling. This of course is common sense and I never speed when it’s raining while driving through built up areas, even if it’s clear, there could be loads of potential hazards and it just isn’t worth it but last night, on an empty m25, I didn’t think it was the same thing as I could see at least half a mile ahead.
I had to go on to the A3 today so I took it easy and didn’t exceed 70 mph, spent most of my time in the inside lane just looking at the road and the cars going past, looking at the speeds and the tyres etc, all while also keeping my eyes on the road. A few cars went past doing at least 90-100 in the outside lane and just put it into perspective of how much of a difference that 20 mph can make, my eyes are wide open now.
The Spruce goose said:
Max_Torque said:
As an example, watch this video, from about 2:30 onwards:
bridgetogantry_125i_wet_nring
Notice the handwheel inputs required to keep directional stability! (The high rate of input, but critically, in both directions. ie, the corrective lock comes off very rapidly, before the car builds excessive yaw)
I'm not an expert but the 'handwheel' inputs seemed more for dramatic effect.bridgetogantry_125i_wet_nring
Notice the handwheel inputs required to keep directional stability! (The high rate of input, but critically, in both directions. ie, the corrective lock comes off very rapidly, before the car builds excessive yaw)
Have a go at sticking in half a turn of lock at 90 and see if you can do it without throwing your car into the scenery.....
Those inputs are very, very real indeed. I'm not talking about the slow speed steady state opposite lock drift he holds in the video on a few occasions, i'm talking about the multiple "stab" inputs required when the car tries to snap sideways (due road camber or change in dynamic grip). In situations where grip changes suddenly (on the N'ring when it starts to rain, or the motorway when you aquaplain.....) your car can change it's yaw rate very quickly, you have to cancel that yaw, restore directional control, and then, and this is the critical bit, blend the car back onto it's original trajectory.
Every day i see people driving, holding the handwheel like this:
And when i do i usually say to my passengers "oh look, there's someone on their way to the scene of an accident" and they often say "so what, what difference does it make?" and there's the thing, most of the time it makes no difference what-so-ever, but you know what, when it does make a difference (holding the wheel properly) is when you really need it to make a difference
I wonder how the OP holds the wheel???
Chestrockwell said:
The thing is, at the time, I didn’t think I was at fault, when I started the thread, I thought what I was doing was completely normal, I did not anticipate that happening and I didn’t know it was possible! I’m not taking the blame away from myself because it’s very clear that it was my fault now that I am informed but should this be the case?
I was never taught how to drive on the motorway when I was still a learner nor was I informed of the risks of driving on the motorway during heavy rain, I vaguely remember my theory test and the only part I remember about driving when raining was the stopping distance doubling. This of course is common sense and I never speed when it’s raining while driving through built up areas, even if it’s clear, there could be loads of potential hazards and it just isn’t worth it but last night, on an empty m25, I didn’t think it was the same thing as I could see at least half a mile ahead.
I had to go on to the A3 today so I took it easy and didn’t exceed 70 mph, spent most of my time in the inside lane just looking at the road and the cars going past, looking at the speeds and the tyres etc, all while also keeping my eyes on the road. A few cars went past doing at least 90-100 in the outside lane and just put it into perspective of how much of a difference that 20 mph can make, my eyes are wide open now.
The good news is that you've just learn't how little you actually know about driving in a sudden, but ultimately, non injurious way. Many, many, in-experienced drivers (irrespective of how long they have been driving) aren't so lucky.I was never taught how to drive on the motorway when I was still a learner nor was I informed of the risks of driving on the motorway during heavy rain, I vaguely remember my theory test and the only part I remember about driving when raining was the stopping distance doubling. This of course is common sense and I never speed when it’s raining while driving through built up areas, even if it’s clear, there could be loads of potential hazards and it just isn’t worth it but last night, on an empty m25, I didn’t think it was the same thing as I could see at least half a mile ahead.
I had to go on to the A3 today so I took it easy and didn’t exceed 70 mph, spent most of my time in the inside lane just looking at the road and the cars going past, looking at the speeds and the tyres etc, all while also keeping my eyes on the road. A few cars went past doing at least 90-100 in the outside lane and just put it into perspective of how much of a difference that 20 mph can make, my eyes are wide open now.
If you want to make the best of a bad situation, book yourself some additional driver training (see the Advanced Driving part of this forum for details) Ok, it's not that cheap, but compared to the cost, hassle and potential injury it can help prevent it's nothing (you drive a £40k car, and yet i bet have never spent a penny of driving tuition other than the absolute minimum you had to do to get a licence.)
Max_Torque said:
....And when i do i usually say to my passengers "oh look, there's someone on their way to the scene of an accident" and they often say "so what, what difference does it make?" and there's the thing,.. etc etc
I bet the queue for a lift with you stretches all the way round the building... ."it was my fault now that I am informed but should this be the case?"
I don't know. I remember a story where someone came across a crashed bike and a helmet a bit further down the road, somewhere in Europe mountainy land. Turned out the helmet had a head in it. The rider had not realised (I mean he probably did, just ran out of skill, but anyway) when leaning over, your head is further across the road, and he went smack into the side of a mountain tunnel. I think.
Now, would he be saying in heaven "why didn't I know about physics and that my brainy bit could be sticking across the hazard line or the side of the road?" I mean his DAS might not have hammered that particular point home. I only learned about lane positioning because: I'm in charge of a big scary piece of metal that could kill me or others. It's in my interest to learn as much as I can to keep everything nice. If I think it isn't, maybe I become a statistic. Through my own ignorance. Unless Geoff Capes starts doing public information broadcasts. That'd be wicked.
I don't know. I remember a story where someone came across a crashed bike and a helmet a bit further down the road, somewhere in Europe mountainy land. Turned out the helmet had a head in it. The rider had not realised (I mean he probably did, just ran out of skill, but anyway) when leaning over, your head is further across the road, and he went smack into the side of a mountain tunnel. I think.
Now, would he be saying in heaven "why didn't I know about physics and that my brainy bit could be sticking across the hazard line or the side of the road?" I mean his DAS might not have hammered that particular point home. I only learned about lane positioning because: I'm in charge of a big scary piece of metal that could kill me or others. It's in my interest to learn as much as I can to keep everything nice. If I think it isn't, maybe I become a statistic. Through my own ignorance. Unless Geoff Capes starts doing public information broadcasts. That'd be wicked.
Edited by GriffoDP on Saturday 11th November 16:31
Max_Torque said:
really?
Have a go at sticking in half a turn of lock at 90 and see if you can do it without throwing your car into the scenery.....
Those inputs are very, very real indeed. I'm not talking about the slow speed steady state opposite lock drift he holds in the video on a few occasions, i'm talking about the multiple "stab" inputs required when the car tries to snap sideways (due road camber or change in dynamic grip). In situations where grip changes suddenly (on the N'ring when it starts to rain, or the motorway when you aquaplain.....) your car can change it's yaw rate very quickly, you have to cancel that yaw, restore directional control, and then, and this is the critical bit, blend the car back onto it's original trajectory.
Every day i see people driving, holding the handwheel like this:
And when i do i usually say to my passengers "oh look, there's someone on their way to the scene of an accident" and they often say "so what, what difference does it make?" and there's the thing, most of the time it makes no difference what-so-ever, but you know what, when it does make a difference (holding the wheel properly) is when you really need it to make a difference
I wonder how the OP holds the wheel???
Have a go at sticking in half a turn of lock at 90 and see if you can do it without throwing your car into the scenery.....
Those inputs are very, very real indeed. I'm not talking about the slow speed steady state opposite lock drift he holds in the video on a few occasions, i'm talking about the multiple "stab" inputs required when the car tries to snap sideways (due road camber or change in dynamic grip). In situations where grip changes suddenly (on the N'ring when it starts to rain, or the motorway when you aquaplain.....) your car can change it's yaw rate very quickly, you have to cancel that yaw, restore directional control, and then, and this is the critical bit, blend the car back onto it's original trajectory.
Every day i see people driving, holding the handwheel like this:
And when i do i usually say to my passengers "oh look, there's someone on their way to the scene of an accident" and they often say "so what, what difference does it make?" and there's the thing, most of the time it makes no difference what-so-ever, but you know what, when it does make a difference (holding the wheel properly) is when you really need it to make a difference
I wonder how the OP holds the wheel???
This is how I drive and I do not hold the wheel with one hand, even if I wanted to i couldn’t as the wheel is too close to me, it would be uncomfortable, I used to hold it with one hand when I had my first bmw at 20, but now, both hands!
Chestrockwell said:
This is the 3mm tyre in question, right side front, the tread depth is about 3 mm id say however the part over the sidewall is slightly bald, does this make it illegal? Is this why it happened
It happened because you were driving too fast in the wet. Either buy a boat or slow down a bit.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff