RE: Jean-Marc Gales exits Lotus
Discussion
Kermit74 said:
Probably the only post on here that I can agree with. My issue with the Evora engine ( and gearbox to a lesser extent) that it lacks any sort of kudos. Yes I know its reliable etc etc but putting it in an 80K car. That's a tough ask IMO.
Do you feel the same way about other top marques with similar circumstances i.e., Using the engines and\or gear boxes from other brands even if they reside under the scope of a parent company such an example being high end\priced sport-luxury Lexus' which is Toyota. Same goes for the Q-engine used in Infiniti from Parent company Nissan. Audi engines from Lambo's, etc. Plenty of examples all over.
Or how about from the other end of the spectrum i.e., Motorcycles. My neighbor bought a 3 wheeled Can-Am and spent almost THIRTY GRAND!!! A lot of that price has to do with it housing an Aprilia engine.
DonkeyApple said:
Fastpedeller said:
saaby93 said:
Brooking10 said:
Eh ?
Would you care to expand on that ?
Every year they spend money on stuff so they could end up breaking even Would you care to expand on that ?
At least thats one way of looking at it
In practice they spend a bit more so end up making a loss
It's ok though because the kudos of their cars transfers across and wins them contracts for the engineering division
In effect the loss is what theyre spending on marketing
It's only a method of accounting
It probably has some tax benefits too
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 6th June 06:55
Kermit74 said:
Probably the only post on here that I can agree with. My issue with the Evora engine ( and gearbox to a lesser extent) that it lacks any sort of kudos. Yes I know its reliable etc etc but putting it in an 80K car. That's a tough ask IMO.
That has always been one of my issues also. We are talking about a car that to all intents and purposes Lotus want to be over £100k and it has a 6 pot minicab engine jacked up in the back. I know that remark is going to annoy some people and it obviously contains a huge chunk of hyperbole but there is no escaping the reality that regardless of whether it is any good or not, the majority of people in the market for a £100k+ toy just aren’t going to entertain having that engine in that car. I don’t feel that it matters one iota for the Exige as it’s a different product with different criteria but for the Evora I think it just kills it. On a seperate engineering note, the engine always looks to be sitting so high and the car itself doesn’t look like it’s been hugely engineered by people at the top of their game who understand both engineering and style and how they can and must be blended together at this point in the market.
I think Gales was the saviour of Lotus and he has taken an enterprise that was an absolute fiasco and dead in the water and tidied it all up, pulled it back together and brought it back to life. I have a wholly unfounded suspicion that his departure was linked to the fact that Geely want the Lotus SUV to essentially be an ugly and nasty copy of a Dacia Duster with a Lotus badge glued on whereas Gales wanted it to be an actual Lotus that brought lightness and handling to this important segment. Ie Geely wanted to follow the VW Uros model and Gales the Ferrari one.
DonkeyApple said:
On a seperate engineering note, the engine always looks to be sitting so high and the car itself doesn’t look like it’s been hugely engineered by people at the top of their game who understand both engineering and style and how they can and must be blended together at this point .
I can only assume that you haven't driven one, I test drove two caymans last week, a GTS and a gt4, the gt4 was impressive, but I drove home in the 400 and thought Lotus nailed it with the Evora.DonkeyApple said:
That has always been one of my issues also. We are talking about a car that to all intents and purposes Lotus want to be over £100k and it has a 6 pot minicab engine jacked up in the back. I know that remark is going to annoy some people and it obviously contains a huge chunk of hyperbole but there is no escaping the reality that regardless of whether it is any good or not, the majority of people in the market for a £100k+ toy just aren’t going to entertain having that engine in that car. I don’t feel that it matters one iota for the Exige as it’s a different product with different criteria but for the Evora I think it just kills it.
Their options are limited there. They can't afford to develop and build their own engine (and if they did, people would be afraid of it, and should it turn out to be made of chocolate they wouldn't get the forgiveness Porsche have had) so it would be a matter of buying something else in. There's nothing exciting in the Geely portfolio unless you'd rather see a Volvo four pot. Is an American truck engine any better than a Japanese minicab engine?otolith said:
DonkeyApple said:
That has always been one of my issues also. We are talking about a car that to all intents and purposes Lotus want to be over £100k and it has a 6 pot minicab engine jacked up in the back. I know that remark is going to annoy some people and it obviously contains a huge chunk of hyperbole but there is no escaping the reality that regardless of whether it is any good or not, the majority of people in the market for a £100k+ toy just aren’t going to entertain having that engine in that car. I don’t feel that it matters one iota for the Exige as it’s a different product with different criteria but for the Evora I think it just kills it.
Their options are limited there. They can't afford to develop and build their own engine (and if they did, people would be afraid of it, and should it turn out to be made of chocolate they wouldn't get the forgiveness Porsche have had) so it would be a matter of buying something else in. There's nothing exciting in the Geely portfolio unless you'd rather see a Volvo four pot. Is an American truck engine any better than a Japanese minicab engine?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHcLP0wvENQ
3:30 about where the engine lives
DonkeyApple said:
I have a wholly unfounded suspicion that his departure was linked to the fact that Geely want the Lotus SUV to essentially be an ugly and nasty copy of a Dacia Duster with a Lotus badge glued on.
Black paint job, gold wheels, chuck out the spare wheel for added lightness. Sit back and watch the Renminbi roll in. Next problem. 
saaby93 said:
otolith said:
DonkeyApple said:
That has always been one of my issues also. We are talking about a car that to all intents and purposes Lotus want to be over £100k and it has a 6 pot minicab engine jacked up in the back. I know that remark is going to annoy some people and it obviously contains a huge chunk of hyperbole but there is no escaping the reality that regardless of whether it is any good or not, the majority of people in the market for a £100k+ toy just aren’t going to entertain having that engine in that car. I don’t feel that it matters one iota for the Exige as it’s a different product with different criteria but for the Evora I think it just kills it.
Their options are limited there. They can't afford to develop and build their own engine (and if they did, people would be afraid of it, and should it turn out to be made of chocolate they wouldn't get the forgiveness Porsche have had) so it would be a matter of buying something else in. There's nothing exciting in the Geely portfolio unless you'd rather see a Volvo four pot. Is an American truck engine any better than a Japanese minicab engine?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHcLP0wvENQ
3:30 about where the engine lives
gareth h said:
DonkeyApple said:
On a seperate engineering note, the engine always looks to be sitting so high and the car itself doesn’t look like it’s been hugely engineered by people at the top of their game who understand both engineering and style and how they can and must be blended together at this point .
I can only assume that you haven't driven one, I test drove two caymans last week, a GTS and a gt4, the gt4 was impressive, but I drove home in the 400 and thought Lotus nailed it with the Evora.otolith said:
Their options are limited there. They can't afford to develop and build their own engine (and if they did, people would be afraid of it, and should it turn out to be made of chocolate they wouldn't get the forgiveness Porsche have had) so it would be a matter of buying something else in. There's nothing exciting in the Geely portfolio unless you'd rather see a Volvo four pot. Is an American truck engine any better than a Japanese minicab engine?
You’re absolutely right. That’s the sadness of the situation. The Lotus brand, the brand that once could better the likes of Ferrari deserves a true halo road car that screams beauty from engineering but deep down we all know that this may never happen again. We all want to see Lotus be great again but we all know that there is no future in making cheap little cars for kids with no money and that the Evora is not the product to push the top end of the market despite just what Gales has managed to achieve. A halo Lotus should not be being compared to a Boxster!!! That highlights everything that has gone wrong over the last 20 years with a single minded business focus on ‘adding cheapness’ and losing all sight of the biggest consumer cultural shift in 70 years. DonkeyApple said:
I have driven one. But you have missed the point. How it handles wasn’t being discussed. Engineering has to be blended with style if you want a car to look £100k+. It can handle better than anything on the planet but that won’t sell cars beyond the tiny, tiny number of very, very specialist enthusiasts. It’s just basic consumer economics. To sell premium goods they must be aspirational. Talking about what G a car can do is about as far away from consumer aspiration as you can manage. The Exige hits its market spot like an absolute hammer, slap bang in prime position. The Evora misses its by a country mile and the very simple fact that you are comparing to the bottom of the range Porsche and not a Ferrari, Maclaren or any of the non vanilla non mass produced stuff just shows it.
That's not where the Evora is and why it misses your hypothetical spot.Place the Evora in its prime spot then see how the others miss it by the same country mile
gareth h said:
I test drove two caymans last week, a GTS and a gt4, the gt4 was impressive, but I drove home in the 400 and thought Lotus nailed it with the Evora.
On the other hand,CS Garth said:
Now it's time to be realistic, you ain't going to exist as a manufacturer in 10 years time selling 1400 niche cars to beardies
The real demand for a sports car isn’t "fast to the exclusion of all else”.There are sports cars worldwide which sell in big numbers for significantly less than £100k,
• MX-5
• Boxster/Cayman
• Corvette
Excellent modern cars and attractively priced.
Sooner or later Lotus must produce a vehicle which appeals to a large number of potential customers who “really want to buy the product". Evora never ticked that box and Exige V6 is an ageing parts-bin compromise to stem the resultant losses.
Everyone's agreed that new product is urgently needed. The questions remain,
- What's it going to be?
- Where's it going to be built?
otolith said:
I don't think anyone would give a damn if they didn't know the provenance of the engine and simply experienced it. DonkeyApple is talking about prejudice and ill-founded snobbery. I don't think Lotus has a way of avoiding that.
Indeed. It’s the recognition of the 21st century consumer. Consumers don’t feel the cloth to gauge whether an item of clothing is of quality. They don’t look at the stitching to see if it has been made by craftsmen. They look at the label and whether someone off of TV has been associated with it. PH has a car enthusiasts obsession with how the Lotus halo car drives but that’s not what sells product. What sells product is how it looks and who or what it is associated with.
And what is truly remarkable is that Lotus have their own exact example of that from the consumer era of the 80s.
It doesn’t matter really what we think about how the Evora handles. They need to sell product way beyond our tiny, uncommercial little group. It’s all about how the outside consumer views the brand. We all know what the majority of £100k car consumers think and we also know that Lotus have done nothing to try and change that yet.
DonkeyApple said:
otolith said:
Their options are limited there. They can't afford to develop and build their own engine (and if they did, people would be afraid of it, and should it turn out to be made of chocolate they wouldn't get the forgiveness Porsche have had) so it would be a matter of buying something else in. There's nothing exciting in the Geely portfolio unless you'd rather see a Volvo four pot. Is an American truck engine any better than a Japanese minicab engine?
You’re absolutely right. That’s the sadness of the situation. The Lotus brand, the brand that once could better the likes of Ferrari deserves a true halo road car that screams beauty from engineering but deep down we all know that this may never happen again. We all want to see Lotus be great again but we all know that there is no future in making cheap little cars for kids with no money and that the Evora is not the product to push the top end of the market despite just what Gales has managed to achieve. A halo Lotus should not be being compared to a Boxster!!! That highlights everything that has gone wrong over the last 20 years with a single minded business focus on ‘adding cheapness’ and losing all sight of the biggest consumer cultural shift in 70 years. DonkeyApple said:
Indeed. It’s the recognition of the 21st century consumer. Consumers don’t feel the cloth to gauge whether an item of clothing is of quality. They don’t look at the stitching to see if it has been made by craftsmen. They look at the label and whether someone off of TV has been associated with it.
PH has a car enthusiasts obsession with how the Lotus halo car drives but that’s not what sells product. What sells product is how it looks and who or what it is associated with.
And what is truly remarkable is that Lotus have their own exact example of that from the consumer era of the 80s.
It doesn’t matter really what we think about how the Evora handles. They need to sell product way beyond our tiny, uncommercial little group. It’s all about how the outside consumer views the brand. We all know what the majority of £100k car consumers think and we also know that Lotus have done nothing to try and change that yet.
Thats not where they arePH has a car enthusiasts obsession with how the Lotus halo car drives but that’s not what sells product. What sells product is how it looks and who or what it is associated with.
And what is truly remarkable is that Lotus have their own exact example of that from the consumer era of the 80s.
It doesn’t matter really what we think about how the Evora handles. They need to sell product way beyond our tiny, uncommercial little group. It’s all about how the outside consumer views the brand. We all know what the majority of £100k car consumers think and we also know that Lotus have done nothing to try and change that yet.
With Porsche or Ferrari there's a degree of they have more money than sense, the green monster can appear too.
Somehow Lots have managed to engender 'respect' in the way their models are viewed
How have the done it?
It is a different market - what's wrong with that?
DonkeyApple said:
I have driven one. But you have missed the point. How it handles wasn’t being discussed. Engineering has to be blended with style if you want a car to look £100k+. It can handle better than anything on the planet but that won’t sell cars beyond the tiny, tiny number of very, very specialist enthusiasts. It’s just basic consumer economics. To sell premium goods they must be aspirational. Talking about what G a car can do is about as far away from consumer aspiration as you can manage. The Exige hits its market spot like an absolute hammer, slap bang in prime position. The Evora misses its by a country mile and the very simple fact that you are comparing to the bottom of the range Porsche and not a Ferrari, Maclaren or any of the non vanilla non mass produced stuff just shows it.
I always saw the Evora as an 'everyman' sportscar, much like the Cayman/entry level 911 - it's something you can buy when you can't get the wife and kids in an Elise. I used to have an Excel and it was a joyous GT car that added Lotus magic to a dash of practicality. Neither of them are halo models, but they are something you could happily put in the company car park and really enjoy owning.Putting a halo model above the Evora makes it make more sense - you aspire to a Lotus developed engine and impractical layout, but end up buying the more pragmatic model. In that respect I thought Bahar was right to aim for an Esprit replacement - but he had no idea how to implement it. The plan for the Evora to sit in the middle of the line-up was always there from the start - MJK thought that it was less of a gamble to produce the mid-range car first.
Now that Geely have the keys to Lotus, the question is whether they'll support an in-house project to produce the powerplant we'd like to see. Lotus Engineering were in a position to make it happen (and did a lot of research for other manufacturers), but Lotus cars could not afford to employ their own team to do the job. Maybe something that can be shared with Volvo in a de-tuned form might suit Geely and deliver the halo model we'd like to see.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff