RE: Defender at the Nurburgring!
Discussion
300bhp/ton said:
I do see loads and loads of pick up trucks. The Ford Ranger is very cool too and doesn't look fugly. And you can buy them for a little over £20k. There are even two in the works car park, both privately owned and both modified.
LR just need a vehicle in this sector IMO. It doesn't really matter who is top dog or in what country. It's a big market and LR could still make a good profit it in.
I was pondering on this earlier and I'm not sure if they do need a vehicle in that sector...LR just need a vehicle in this sector IMO. It doesn't really matter who is top dog or in what country. It's a big market and LR could still make a good profit it in.
You've just said it yourself "I do see loads and loads of pickup trucks" and I do too. Toyota, Mitsubishi,Ford, VW, Merc, etc... Even Fiat have an offering. So I can't help thinking the commercial market is already saturated. I'm sure LandRover could do _something_ and get _some_ sales but how many and for how long??
Personally, I keep coming back to the Wrangler/Rubicon, the segment it sits and can't help thinking there's not much in the way of direct competition at the moment. Ho hummm...
M
skyrover said:
NomduJour said:
Ships of Theseus.
Not really... My 1983 is still on it's original chassis, axles, gearbox/transfer box, props, body panels, interior, etc etc
The engine is not original... you got me there.
camel_landy said:
I'm not sure if they do need a vehicle in that sector...loads of pickup trucks...I can't help thinking the commercial market is already saturated...Wrangler/Rubicon, the segment it sits...
I think this has been apparent for some time. The segment the Series 1-3/90-110/Defender used to occupy, is a segment that no longer exists having split into several distinct segments. One one side there's the 'lifestyle' vehicles - Jeep, G-Class and some pick up variants. On the off-roader side there's the 70-series Land Cruiser and older Nissan Patrol in some markets and Jimnys even. On the utility side there's pickups be they American, Japanese, German or Italian and to a small extent vans. While on the SUV side there's all sorts of things from 150- and 200-series Land Cruisers and Lexuses, to the Discovery and Range Rover.The question is, is there a big enough niche amongst all that for a vehicle that won't have a separate chassis, won't be retro and will be small enough for Europe but big enough for the US/Middle East/Australia?
JxJ Jr. said:
The question is, is there a big enough niche amongst all that for a vehicle that won't have a separate chassis, won't be retro and will be small enough for Europe but big enough for the US/Middle East/Australia?
Not really.The Defender needs to break the stereotype that's killing land rover for building poorly made, unreliable vehicles.
Adding more complexity is not going to fix that issue.
They need to get the basic engineering right... build something that really is as tough as they claim and wait as it takes a long time for the bad taste to disappear from customers mouths.
NomduJour said:
MikeDB1 said:
Whilst Land-Rover may indeed sell more of this 'Defender' to new markets, what are farmers who need real Defenders going to do ? ... And I hope this is the same track width as the old one as there are numerous pits in barns with metal slats laid out to the exact width of a Defender
Grew up with them, my father has been buying new Land Rovers since the 1960s - even we ended up with Japanese pickups. Fact is hardly any farmers have bought Defenders new for a generation - it’s only upland stock farms etc. where I ever see recent 90s being used nowadays. Even less relevant now the pickups can tow 3.5 tonnes.Hopefully some of these last real Defenders will be sold by their trendy owners at sensible prices once they see the new one.
skyrover said:
JxJ Jr. said:
The question is, is there a big enough niche amongst all that for a vehicle that won't have a separate chassis, won't be retro and will be small enough for Europe but big enough for the US/Middle East/Australia?
Not really.The Defender needs to break the stereotype that's killing land rover for building poorly made, unreliable vehicles.
Quality and reliability issues, real or perceived, are a big problem but it's far from clear where LR might take sales from...other than from the Discovery.
skyrover said:
J4CKO said:
Er, arent 100 percent of cars bought new ?
Not watched the video but am guessing its someone who likes old ones saying that the new one isnt a "proper" LandRover.
So many off roaders only buy thirty year old heaps anyway, not the target market and farmers arent any more, the target market are monied urban types and JLR sell to those who can afford and want their products, not those with nostalgia, enthusiasm and a very narrow definition of what is "proper".
The fact those 30 year old land rover's are still going strong says more about them than the tuperware they are building now which will be confined to the scrap pile within 20 years.Not watched the video but am guessing its someone who likes old ones saying that the new one isnt a "proper" LandRover.
So many off roaders only buy thirty year old heaps anyway, not the target market and farmers arent any more, the target market are monied urban types and JLR sell to those who can afford and want their products, not those with nostalgia, enthusiasm and a very narrow definition of what is "proper".
There is no reason modern stuff wont be going in thirty years if looked after and you wont need a mig welder.
Hairymonster said:
Why take a Defender to the 'ring?
That's like taking a 911 GT3 RS round an off-road circuit
Seems completely irrelevant given it's purpose.
It’s just a section of tarmac used by manufacturers for part of their required product testing. Unlike other road testing bits of tarmac it also has a huge PR element as anything that goes round it gets photographed and distributed to worldwide media. You get all sorts being simply road tested around it, that’s how it makes it’s money to stay open for the fun, silly stuff that we enjoy. That's like taking a 911 GT3 RS round an off-road circuit
Seems completely irrelevant given it's purpose.
J4CKO said:
Some are still going, usually after extensive work to sort the rot out, enthusiastic owners, value and simplicity keep them going not any inherent quality, they would be thrown away after half that many years if used properly if nobody was into them.
There is no reason modern stuff wont be going in thirty years if looked after and you wont need a mig welder.
There are loads about still. Most/many have been modified. But more often than not to upgrade. Not because it was broken. There is no reason modern stuff wont be going in thirty years if looked after and you wont need a mig welder.
Surely the fact they are about like this is exactly what an inherent quality is. If they weren’t robust and easy to maintain. People wouldn’t be “in to them”.
300bhp/ton said:
There are loads about still. Most/many have been modified. But more often than not to upgrade. Not because it was broken.
Surely the fact they are about like this is exactly what an inherent quality is. If they weren’t robust and easy to maintain. People wouldn’t be “in to them”.
Not necessarily, The natural habitat of an off-road vehicle is surely rural areas, that implies more space and hence more opportunity to leave broken down junk rotting away there than if it was in urban or suburban areas where space is at a premium and it would be thus more likely to be carted away to the junkyard.Surely the fact they are about like this is exactly what an inherent quality is. If they weren’t robust and easy to maintain. People wouldn’t be “in to them”.
JxJ Jr. said:
300bhp/ton said:
There are loads about still. Most/many have been modified. But more often than not to upgrade. Not because it was broken.
Surely the fact they are about like this is exactly what an inherent quality is. If they weren’t robust and easy to maintain. People wouldn’t be “in to them”.
Not necessarily, The natural habitat of an off-road vehicle is surely rural areas, that implies more space and hence more opportunity to leave broken down junk rotting away there than if it was in urban or suburban areas where space is at a premium and it would be thus more likely to be carted away to the junkyard.Surely the fact they are about like this is exactly what an inherent quality is. If they weren’t robust and easy to maintain. People wouldn’t be “in to them”.
The majority of land rover's do not spend their time rotting away... unless they are from the newer range where you can often find them waiting in the service bay.
skyrover said:
Your perception of reality and actual reality are quite different.
The majority of land rover's do not spend their time rotting away... unless they are from the newer range where you can often find them waiting in the service bay.
And your perception seems to be clouded by the love of your chosen brand, you don't seem to be able back any of it up with any substance.The majority of land rover's do not spend their time rotting away... unless they are from the newer range where you can often find them waiting in the service bay.
There are a number of reasons why there might be many Land Rovers around:
- Take a look in the classifieds, sort by age, these vehicles don't have huge mileages. Certainly they pale in comparison to g-wagens of a similar vintage on mobile.de. So they haven't necessarily seen that much use relative to their age.
- With few changes made over a long period of time and thus a lot of parts commonality, keeping them running would be easier and cheaper than other vehicles.
- Over the years many parts, and vehicles, have been released by the MOD further making it easy and cheap to keep them running.
- They are simple, that obviously means its easier and cheaper to repair them, not that they are necessarily tougher than a comparable
- 'Replacement chassis' is both an industry and a common phrase in the world of Land Rovers. Replacing the very er...backbone doesn't exactly imply legendary longevity.
- The original point still stands, whether left to die, left for a few years pending repair or just kept around running untaxed, uninsured and sans MOT, whether subsequently repaired or sold on, all are more likely in a setting of space likely to be found in rural areas rather than urban or suburban. That's why barnfinds are called 'barnfinds' and not 'on-street parking finds' or 'suburban driveway finds'.
JxJ Jr. said:
There are a number of reasons why there might be many Land Rovers around:
- Take a look in the classifieds, sort by age, these vehicles don't have huge mileages. Certainly they pale in comparison to g-wagens of a similar vintage on mobile.de. So they haven't necessarily seen that much use relative to their age.
- With few changes made over a long period of time and thus a lot of parts commonality, keeping them running would be easier and cheaper than other vehicles.
- Over the years many parts, and vehicles, have been released by the MOD further making it easy and cheap to keep them running.
- They are simple, that obviously means its easier and cheaper to repair them, not that they are necessarily tougher than a comparable
- 'Replacement chassis' is both an industry and a common phrase in the world of Land Rovers. Replacing the very er...backbone doesn't exactly imply legendary longevity.
- The original point still stands, whether left to die, left for a few years pending repair or just kept around running untaxed, uninsured and sans MOT, whether subsequently repaired or sold on, all are more likely in a setting of space likely to be found in rural areas rather than urban or suburban. That's why barnfinds are called 'barnfinds' and not 'on-street parking finds' or 'suburban driveway finds'.
Landrovers can and do achieve huge mileages, although older ones especially were not used for regular long distance journeys, due to lo cruising speed 50-60mph. Tdis onwards are regularly seen with 200000 miles plus on the clock and are capable of much more.- Take a look in the classifieds, sort by age, these vehicles don't have huge mileages. Certainly they pale in comparison to g-wagens of a similar vintage on mobile.de. So they haven't necessarily seen that much use relative to their age.
- With few changes made over a long period of time and thus a lot of parts commonality, keeping them running would be easier and cheaper than other vehicles.
- Over the years many parts, and vehicles, have been released by the MOD further making it easy and cheap to keep them running.
- They are simple, that obviously means its easier and cheaper to repair them, not that they are necessarily tougher than a comparable
- 'Replacement chassis' is both an industry and a common phrase in the world of Land Rovers. Replacing the very er...backbone doesn't exactly imply legendary longevity.
- The original point still stands, whether left to die, left for a few years pending repair or just kept around running untaxed, uninsured and sans MOT, whether subsequently repaired or sold on, all are more likely in a setting of space likely to be found in rural areas rather than urban or suburban. That's why barnfinds are called 'barnfinds' and not 'on-street parking finds' or 'suburban driveway finds'.
G Wagens aren't really the same sort of vehicle, they're a very expensive purpose built military vehicle adapted for the luxury market. Land Rovers for much of the model life were designed as a fairly inexpensive workhorse, like a cross country transit van. End users would hammer the hell out of them, overload them and tow huge loads.Army gun tractors carried the gun crew, ammunition and towed the gun itself, a task that was supposed to be carried out using two vehicles.
Landrovers often have chassis replacements because a) it is a long term benefit to fit a rust resistant main structure to something the owner might want to keep for life, b) it's quite cheap c. £2200 with the VAT and c) it's quite easy to do. Lots of landrovers have their original chassis, like all three of ours. Incidentally pretty much all cars over 20 years old suffer structural rust problems especially if neglected.
I'm not sure what the point about spares availability means? The ease of working on them is what makes them so popular, they can be easily repaired and spares aren't hard to come by. Working vehicles do break, so this is crucial to their effectiveness.
The vast majority of Landies are still soldiering on with most of their original components. Service cycles on many components can be measured in decades, which is remarkable considering the hard use they can receive.
Erm, JLR may have some work yet to do on the component quality and/or build standards on the new Defender. Coming Southbound down the M40 last Friday afternoon, 10 miles or so north of the Gaydon turnoff and I get my first sighting of a new LR Defender. Quite conspicuous in its zebra black & while camouflage.
Unfortunately, it's even more of a stand-out sighting than it would normally be, as it's parked up on the hard shoulder and about to be winched on to the flatbed of the breakdown truck that's positioned in front of it. Not a good omen...
Unfortunately, it's even more of a stand-out sighting than it would normally be, as it's parked up on the hard shoulder and about to be winched on to the flatbed of the breakdown truck that's positioned in front of it. Not a good omen...
andybu said:
Erm, JLR may have some work yet to do on the component quality and/or build standards on the new Defender. Coming Southbound down the M40 last Friday afternoon, 10 miles or so north of the Gaydon turnoff and I get my first sighting of a new LR Defender. Quite conspicuous in its zebra black & while camouflage.
Unfortunately, it's even more of a stand-out sighting than it would normally be, as it's parked up on the hard shoulder and about to be winched on to the flatbed of the breakdown truck that's positioned in front of it. Not a good omen...
That's the point of testing though. I'd rather something breaks during testing rather than in the hands of a customer...Unfortunately, it's even more of a stand-out sighting than it would normally be, as it's parked up on the hard shoulder and about to be winched on to the flatbed of the breakdown truck that's positioned in front of it. Not a good omen...
M
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