RE: 'The toughest, most capable Land Rover ever'

[anonymous-user]

E65Ross said:

Andy20vt said:

BathyThermo said:

Andy20vt said:

in which case why on earth test at the Nurburgring?

Because even though it's an offroader, it'd be nice if it didn't tip over at 100mph?

Despite what the clowns from Top Gear/GT will have you believe, it's a very good place to road test a car.

But when will it be driven at over 100mph? The UK limit is 70mph. The Defender is supposed to be a rugged off-roader and not a car. Unless it is now supposed to be a car packaged for fashion's sake to look like a rugger off-roader?

"Some cars are sold outside UK" and "off road cars are also used on road" shocker.

But that's not the point of the Defender is it? If you want to go on-road mostly then buy a Discovery or a Range Rover - or better still 'a car'!!!!

[NomduJour]

People buy twin-cabs because they’re also civilised enough to sit at 90+ on the motorway. A new Defender needs to do the same, but better - no reason why that ability should compromise anything else.

[anonymous-user]

NomduJour said:

People buy twin-cabs because they’re also civilised enough to sit at 90+ on the motorway. A new Defender needs to do the same, but better - no reason why that ability should compromise anything else.

It will compromise off road ability.

[anonymous-user]

Andy20vt said:

But when will it be driven at over 100mph? The UK limit is 70mph. The Defender is supposed to be a rugged off-roader and not a car. Unless it is now supposed to be a car packaged for fashion's sake to look like a rugger off-roader?

What does the UK speed limit have to do with anything?

Does your car do more than 70mph? If so, why?

I get the feeling that like some other posters, you're just here for an argument?

[NomduJour]

Andy20vt said:

It will compromise off road ability.

"Off road ability" is a very broad church, but I'm pretty sure they've thought about it in any case.

[mat205125]

NomduJour said:

Andy20vt said:

It will compromise off road ability.

"Off road ability" is a very broad church, but I'm pretty sure they've thought about it in any case.

Exactly.

A Ford Fiesta with a good set of all-weather / winter / mud tyres, and some clever traction and braking control programming, would be better than most SUVs across a slippery muddy track.

Sacrificing road going performance to benefit some rock crawling capability isn't where this new Defender is being aimed. People just have to become comfortable with that.

[anonymous-user]

mat205125 said:

NomduJour said:

Andy20vt said:

It will compromise off road ability.

"Off road ability" is a very broad church, but I'm pretty sure they've thought about it in any case.

Exactly.

A Ford Fiesta with a good set of all-weather / winter / mud tyres, and some clever traction and braking control programming, would be better than most SUVs across a slippery muddy track.

Sacrificing road going performance to benefit some rock crawling capability isn't where this new Defender is being aimed. People just have to become comfortable with that.

Oh great so the new Defender becomes a pastiche of itself? Little more than a predominantly road going SUV with a hint to the original Defender styling?

Don't JLR currently have more than enough of this sort of vehicle in their range? The one thing that is currently missing from the range is a proper rugged off-roader - the thing on which the whole LR and RR brand was built, but is now missing!

[Oilchange]

I am very much looking forward to seeing the new car in the flesh although I suspect it will be overpriced.
Pipe dream at the mo but I am toying with either a Defender or a Disco 4 at some point.

[E65Ross]

Andy20vt said:

E65Ross said:

Andy20vt said:

BathyThermo said:

Andy20vt said:

in which case why on earth test at the Nurburgring?

Because even though it's an offroader, it'd be nice if it didn't tip over at 100mph?

Despite what the clowns from Top Gear/GT will have you believe, it's a very good place to road test a car.

But when will it be driven at over 100mph? The UK limit is 70mph. The Defender is supposed to be a rugged off-roader and not a car. Unless it is now supposed to be a car packaged for fashion's sake to look like a rugger off-roader?

"Some cars are sold outside UK" and "off road cars are also used on road" shocker.

But that's not the point of the Defender is it? If you want to go on-road mostly then buy a Discovery or a Range Rover - or better still 'a car'!!!!

OK, you best tell JLR that their marketing and development team know nothing about their target audience, that they know nothing about what their own car is intended to do, and that you should be their new CEO.

Edited by E65Ross on Tuesday 30th April 14:23

[HighwayStar]

Andy20vt said:

mat205125 said:

NomduJour said:

Andy20vt said:

It will compromise off road ability.

"Off road ability" is a very broad church, but I'm pretty sure they've thought about it in any case.

Exactly.

A Ford Fiesta with a good set of all-weather / winter / mud tyres, and some clever traction and braking control programming, would be better than most SUVs across a slippery muddy track.

Sacrificing road going performance to benefit some rock crawling capability isn't where this new Defender is being aimed. People just have to become comfortable with that.

Oh great so the new Defender becomes a pastiche of itself? Little more than a predominantly road going SUV with a hint to the original Defender styling?

Don't JLR currently have more than enough of this sort of vehicle in their range? The one thing that is currently missing from the range is a proper rugged off-roader - the thing on which the whole LR and RR brand was built, but is now missing!

I have a feeling, contrary to what you presume, LR will have it all covered.

[NomduJour]

Looks good to me:

https://youtu.be/0MDFeQXPtyE

[anonymous-user]

E65Ross said:

Andy20vt said:

E65Ross said:

Andy20vt said:

BathyThermo said:

Andy20vt said:

in which case why on earth test at the Nurburgring?

Because even though it's an offroader, it'd be nice if it didn't tip over at 100mph?

Despite what the clowns from Top Gear/GT will have you believe, it's a very good place to road test a car.

But when will it be driven at over 100mph? The UK limit is 70mph. The Defender is supposed to be a rugged off-roader and not a car. Unless it is now supposed to be a car packaged for fashion's sake to look like a rugger off-roader?

"Some cars are sold outside UK" and "off road cars are also used on road" shocker.

But that's not the point of the Defender is it? If you want to go on-road mostly then buy a Discovery or a Range Rover - or better still 'a car'!!!!

OK, you best tell JLR that their marketing and development team know nothing about their target audience and that you should be their new CEO.

Oh yeah I forgot about all those farmers wanting to tow their sheep trailers to set a good laptime round the Nurburgring!

[InitialDave]

I understand, and to a large extent agree with, the argument that JLR can't go building something that's aimed at some kind I'd theoretical third world farmer and expect it to be a good business case for their target market.

However, I do think they need to have it as a bit of a halo car, in off road capability terms, even if at the expense of refinement and mass appeal. The value in the brand is like with Jeep, "we're the guys who build the genuine article. You might not really want that, but if you buy one if our other models, you'll benefit from that attitude."

I do think something akin to a Wrangler or scaled up Jimny would be a good idea on that basis, even if it isn't the optimum sales proposition. I had an original Suzuki SJ, and the new Jimny has a lot of appeal for me as it is very similar, has a lot of the similar good points, but without most of the aspects I'd struggle to tolerate as a daily driver now. I have confidence that it really will work properly off road, just as I do with the Wrangler.

I'm not currently feeling that from anything JLR make. I think they need to ensure the new Defender really does properly present that kind of impression - but how they do so needn't be anything like the original Defender.

[NomduJour]

How does everything to do with the new Defender act as a sort of homing beacon for simpletons? Don't remember anything this bad since the GT-R was new.

[300bhp/ton]

BathyThermo said:

I'm quite sure you're well aware of the existence of pedestrian protection regulations, which is clearly what the leaper was referring to when he said a design from years ago would fail relevant vehicle tests.

As Jeep, Mercedes, Suzuki and others have demonstrated. The vehicle can still be styled like previous models and still meet the regulations and be perfectly legal.

[HighwayStar]

NomduJour said:

Looks good to me:

https://youtu.be/0MDFeQXPtyE

Nooo! Can't you see? Andy is right. See how it's so close to the road because it soooo compromised.

[300bhp/ton]

jhonn said:

300bhp/ton said:

ABS and TCS was available since 1998. Aircon was fitted to all NAS models way before the Puma engines. As were ECU's for the TD5's and V8's. The Puma's are barely more complex and are only so in the wiring department for emissions and engine. The rest of the vehicle is still pretty much identical to a 1984 example.

OK - not going to argue the point with you - it was my opinion that I didn't consider the last of the Defenders to be a 'simple' vehicle, aspects of which I and others explained - you obviously have a different opinion.

No need to argue. But I think you not really playing fair.

Disco 1's had ABS... but that hardly makes them more complex than a Defender. There are different degrees of complexity and the final Puma Defenders are still 90% very simply vehicles.

[300bhp/ton]

NomduJour said:

The Ford Ranger has been the best-selling pickup in the UK for five years - over 2/3 of them sold across the whole of Europe are the 3.2 litre automatic 4x4 twin-cab version - not the 2.2 manual 4x2, bargain basement, regular cab model you posted.

Please don't change the facts. You clearly said all pickups are £40k plus. I just posted to counter that showing the Ranger is available from £22k.

And if you are correct the 1/3 of the best selling pickups aren't the top £40k model, then surely that is still a lot of cheaper pickups?

[anonymous-user]

NomduJour said:

How does everything to do with the new Defender act as a sort of homing beacon for simpletons? Don't remember anything this bad since the GT-R was new.

Sadly it’s true

Time and time again.

The same fools with the sane nonsense

Commons denominators ? Few intend to ever buy a Land Rover product in the future, fewer yet one from new and many have never had one new or used. All demonstrate zero understanding of the economics of automotive manufacturing.

Cut and paste use of “orange”, school run” , “farmer” and “Toyota”.

Every sodding time !

Still we’ll more than likely be buying one and I think it looks like it’s going to be rather good

[300bhp/ton]

Brooking10 said:

300 I know you’re a genuine LR enthusiast but you continually fail to grasp that whilst there may well be a market for what you outline it’s simply not a market that for the modern day JLR can viably address.

No amount of stats is going to change the fact that today’s JLR is not configured to do that nor change the fact that building and selling lots of cheap cars would actually be a punitively expensive endeavour for them.

Thanks.

But to be fair, I haven't really said anything about making a different Defender in this thread. NomduJour was saying LR can't compete with the Hilux, so shouldn't bother. But then went on to say almost all the pickups are luxury £40k+ ones.

All I'm saying is, if it's true they are all £40k+ (which I don't think is inexpensive). Then surely LR could compete in this market, regardless of how big or small Toyota are. And still be profitable for LR.