RE: All-time best BMW M car - the results!
Discussion
ds666 said:
I must have done . Was it that you've had a lot of 911's? M
Funny. Not.ds666 said:
I've had 8 M cars and currently have a car that has the same box and automation as a 360 - that box isn't very good either.
Which begs two questions :i Just what is your point ? (if indeed you have one)
ii If you dislike automated manual ‘boxes so much, why to you own a car equipped with one ?
Oh, and it’s groove, not grove.
Leins said:
Olivera said:
I always liked the super limited E92 M3 CRT, 4.4 litre stroker from the factory:
I had a bit of a look around one of these in Munich a good few years ago, and it seemed a fantastic bit of kit. Less showy than the E92 GTS sitting beside it at the time, and more desirable for mehttps://youtu.be/NufVDKFEMwU?t=42
smilo996 said:
decent list and a worthy and not unexpected winner.
Now BMW tend to slap M on plenty of mediocre cars.
Yeah, yeah, things were so much better in the good old days, etc.Now BMW tend to slap M on plenty of mediocre cars.
Which current full-fat M cars are mediocre compared to alternatives in the same class of car?
Edited by GT9 on Monday 25th April 21:20
Slippydiff said:
Chunkychucky said:
When was SMG ever fantastic? Even when released I couldn't understand BMW using SMG in the M3 CSL, makes even less sense now with people who own them converting them to manuals.
"Exciting, raw, and you actually need to drive it" - are you aware of the 'manual gearbox'?
Jeez. "Exciting, raw, and you actually need to drive it" - are you aware of the 'manual gearbox'?
When you learnt to embrace it and work with it to finesse what was in some ways a flawed concept.
Here's my list of car owned to date :
Mk1 Escort Mexico (1st car)
Chevette HS
Opel Ascona 400
E30 M3 Evo 2
Sapphire Cosworth 2WD
VR6 Golf Highline
E36 M3 Saloon
Impreza 22B One of 16 UK cars
964 RS Midnight Blue
964 RS Guards Red
993 RS Guards Red
Impreza P1
Mk1 996 GT3 Zanzibar
964 RS Rubystone
996 GT2 Midnight Blue
Gen 1997 GT3 Meteor Grey
Subaru Impreza WRC car (the 2nd WRC car Prodrive built)
Mk1 996 GT3 Zanzibar (I bought it back ! !)
M3 CSL
996 GT2 Basalt Black (Ohlins, remap, Ruf exhaust)
996 GT3 RS White with Red
Gen 1 997 GT3 Slate Grey
1M Coupe Orange
1M Coupe White AP's, Sparco race seats install, decat, custom geo set up.
964 RS Ferrari Yellow
Mk1 996 GT3 Black with custom built Ohlins 3 way adjustable remote cannister dampers, Clubsport cage, Manthey K400 engine conversion etc
E63 M6 V10 Coupe Silver Grey (what else ?)
987 Cayman R Guards red
Mk1 996 GT3 (yet another Zanzibar car) fitted with a 997 Cup engine tweaked to 465 hp.
On the basis of the list above, I think it's fair to say I like, enjoy and "get" a manual 'box as much as the next man. But, and it's a huge but (almost on par with one K Kardashian's) I NEVER once in 30+K miles returned from a hoon/thrash in the CSL and thought "Shame, that would have been SO much better/more fun if it had been a manual 'box". That says as much about the intrinsic "rightness" of the CSL as a package as it does the SMG gearbox.
stuart100 said:
Why do we need to know the colour of each car?
You don’t, I cut and pasted the list from a post I made on PH some ten years ago, and in all honesty I couldn’t be arsed to edit it for the benefit of time wasters like yourself, who seem to derive enjoyment from wandering into random threads and posting comments that are neither constructive nor indeed contribute anything to an otherwise interesting thread.I had a E39 M5 and it would be top of my personal list.
As for the V10 it was indeed a superb engine...I had an E63 M6 from new.
However, as mentioned the SMG was not great, though you could learn to shift it smoothly with a bit of practice. Driven hard the fuel consumption was unbelievably terrible and with a 65 litre tank I almost had my own parking spot at the Shell station. A good long distance road car otherwise and very quick indeed but was underbaked and too heavy for a track day.
As for the V10 it was indeed a superb engine...I had an E63 M6 from new.
However, as mentioned the SMG was not great, though you could learn to shift it smoothly with a bit of practice. Driven hard the fuel consumption was unbelievably terrible and with a 65 litre tank I almost had my own parking spot at the Shell station. A good long distance road car otherwise and very quick indeed but was underbaked and too heavy for a track day.
Slippydiff said:
stuart100 said:
Why do we need to know the colour of each car?
You don’t, I cut and pasted the list from a post I made on PH some ten years ago, and in all honesty I couldn’t be arsed to edit it for the benefit of time wasters like yourself, who seem to derive enjoyment from wandering into random threads and posting comments that are neither constructive nor indeed contribute anything to an otherwise interesting thread.RDMcG said:
I had a E39 M5 and it would be top of my personal list.
As for the V10 it was indeed a superb engine...I had an E63 M6 from new.
However, as mentioned the SMG was not great, though you could learn to shift it smoothly with a bit of practice. Driven hard the fuel consumption was unbelievably terrible and with a 65 litre tank I almost had my own parking spot at the Shell station. A good long distance road car otherwise and very quick indeed but was underbaked and too heavy for a track day.
Plus one for the e39 - I've had 2 , the second was the best tow car I've ever had lol . Prices are going bonkers thou. As for the V10 it was indeed a superb engine...I had an E63 M6 from new.
However, as mentioned the SMG was not great, though you could learn to shift it smoothly with a bit of practice. Driven hard the fuel consumption was unbelievably terrible and with a 65 litre tank I almost had my own parking spot at the Shell station. A good long distance road car otherwise and very quick indeed but was underbaked and too heavy for a track day.
Loving the nostalgic throwback to the CSL critique ala 2009. “Shirley a modded M3 on coilovers is a much better car!” , etc.
As an aside, playing advocate to the Devil, I think the 1976 E12 530 MLE deserves a spot for being the first proper M-car, and a demonstration in what that letter really meant at the beginning - drilled pedal and boot lid hinges, and the like. Unsurprising that it didn’t get any votes as it’s not the best known car, but even still it’s pretty much genesis as far as I’m concerned
As an aside, playing advocate to the Devil, I think the 1976 E12 530 MLE deserves a spot for being the first proper M-car, and a demonstration in what that letter really meant at the beginning - drilled pedal and boot lid hinges, and the like. Unsurprising that it didn’t get any votes as it’s not the best known car, but even still it’s pretty much genesis as far as I’m concerned
stuart100 said:
It just appeared a little odd that’s all I was saying. You can take your attitude problem elsewhere. Please take your unnecessarily long and overt response with you.
Talking of "attitude problems" ... stuart100 said:
Arsecati said:
Is that a child driving? Surely somebody could have given him a booster cushion before getting in to the driving seat??
How old are you? Can’t you say something more sensible and worthwhile than that? 
But I digress, I only have an "attitude problem" with time wasting individuals such as yourself making irrelevant and pointless comments that add nothing to an otherwise interesting thread. Seemingly you're not overly keen on other individuals posting fatuous comments either ...
Seeing as you've bothered to post on here but have taken exception to my "unnecessarily long and overt post", you're clearly an expert in all things from the BMW M division, so do please enlighten us all with your expertise in these matters.
Let's start with your experience behind the wheel of the E46 M3 CSL you owned or got to test drive over several days ...
Slippydiff said:
stuart100 said:
It just appeared a little odd that’s all I was saying. You can take your attitude problem elsewhere. Please take your unnecessarily long and overt response with you.
Talking of "attitude problems" ... stuart100 said:
Arsecati said:
Is that a child driving? Surely somebody could have given him a booster cushion before getting in to the driving seat??
How old are you? Can’t you say something more sensible and worthwhile than that? But I digress, I only have an "attitude problem" with time wasting individuals such as yourself making irrelevant and pointless comments that add nothing to an otherwise interesting thread. Seemingly you're not overly keen on other individuals posting fatuous comments either ...
Seeing as you've bothered to post on here but have taken exception to my "unnecessarily long and overt post", you're clearly an expert in all things from the BMW M division, so do please enlighten us all with your expertise in these matters.
Let's start with your experience behind the wheel of the E46 M3 CSL you owned or got to test drive over several days ...
I barely said anything and you provide unnecessarily critical and aggressive posts. Calm down.
The thread isn't very interesting or pleasant with you around. Goodbye.
Slippydiff said:
Suggest you have a look back at the various PH articles on the CSL over the past 10 years, along with the resultant threads that accompany them, as a large proportion of those who’ve actually owned one, consider the SMG ‘box an intrinsic part of the CSL’s DNA.
As I’ve said previously, if the E46 M3’s manual ‘box had a shift that was MX5 or Ford 2000E like in feel and directness, you comments may have some validity. But as it’s more akin to stirring a bowl of cold porridge, it makes you look like nothing more than a bitter Luddite who thinks a return to drum brakes and manual chokes and crossplies would be beneficial for “real” drivers.
Because PH is the end all be all. As I’ve said previously, if the E46 M3’s manual ‘box had a shift that was MX5 or Ford 2000E like in feel and directness, you comments may have some validity. But as it’s more akin to stirring a bowl of cold porridge, it makes you look like nothing more than a bitter Luddite who thinks a return to drum brakes and manual chokes and crossplies would be beneficial for “real” drivers.
Read all your replies throughout this thread and your fancy wording to back up your deluded view on how a 20yr old manual gearbox is worse than a 20yr old half arsed attempt at a flappy paddle gearbox. Just as a CSL gearbox flash enhances the crap gearbox that it is, an e60 545i or e46 330d manual shifter kit, transforms the way a manual e46 m3 will shift too.
But sure continue on with your uppity attitude. Need a laugh after all
Slippydiff said:
Read my post earlier in this thread.
Bought for £28K in 2008, frequently used as a daily, did two long European hoons in it, plus numerous Welsh and a Scottish hoon too.
Sold for £24K 3-4 years later having done over 30k miles in it.
So I think it safe to say my ownership had nothing to do with residuals or investment potential, it was a drivers car, pure and simple. And it excelled because it was a quantum leap over a standard M3, because whilst it could be construed as a mildly modified version of a stock M3, the end result of those mods produced a car that was more than the sum of its parts.
But there was more than that to it, there wasn’t a single aspect of the car I disliked, from the aesthetics to the power/drivetrain and the perfectly judged suspension to the interior ergonomics mated to the practicality of the whole package, it was magnificent.
Building a rep that ticks all those boxes would be an incredibly expensive undertaking, and whilst the end result would no doubt be good, it would be an exercise in throwing money away IF you ever had to sell it.
Well done for you, sounds like an awesome few years you had Bought for £28K in 2008, frequently used as a daily, did two long European hoons in it, plus numerous Welsh and a Scottish hoon too.
Sold for £24K 3-4 years later having done over 30k miles in it.
So I think it safe to say my ownership had nothing to do with residuals or investment potential, it was a drivers car, pure and simple. And it excelled because it was a quantum leap over a standard M3, because whilst it could be construed as a mildly modified version of a stock M3, the end result of those mods produced a car that was more than the sum of its parts.
But there was more than that to it, there wasn’t a single aspect of the car I disliked, from the aesthetics to the power/drivetrain and the perfectly judged suspension to the interior ergonomics mated to the practicality of the whole package, it was magnificent.
Building a rep that ticks all those boxes would be an incredibly expensive undertaking, and whilst the end result would no doubt be good, it would be an exercise in throwing money away IF you ever had to sell it.
Edited by Slippydiff on Sunday 24th April 22:33
My post / question wasn't aimed at you
For the cost of even the crappiest CSL on the market, you could buy an E46 M3 and have all the relevant preventative maintaince tasks completed (boot floor, rod bearings, vanos units) and install AP brakes, 3 way adjustable coilovers and all number of bushes, braces and supports . And you'd still have significant money to spare
I haven't driven a CSL, but I have driven a E46 M3 which had some sort of mulit-way adjustable race specification coilovers with some variety of big brake kit, and was fully polybushed etc which was absolutely insane to drive (too insane for me for day to day use but the owner told me it could be softened up easily) so I struggle to see how a CSL can compete
I bet this - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/255506640119?hash=item3...
would be nicer to drive than any CSL it looks very similar to the car I drove in the past, in terms of it's stance and fitted parts
If only I was 20 years younger. ... what a thing to have ! And to me that seems a bargain price for a well specified and upgraded car.
Granted it appears to need some tidying up bodywork wise but even at a very high estimate of £5000 to make the car "pristine" (that would be enough for a full respray) then you're still under £30k., less than half the value of a CSL.
Some people put a lot of weight on the badge or "manufacturer upgrades" which is fine, I believe the aftermarket can do things better
I guess that's all personal opinion
Matthew7711 said:
CarCrazyDad said:
I haven't driven a CSL,
That’s all folks.Interesting comments on this one.
I did like the CSL I owned, and as I mentioned, I have owned now 4 Maserati with the single clutch box. So I know how to get used to them and how to when the right road, and right weather hit, they make all sorts of sense,
But still, I maintain that the single clutch boxes are a bit rubbish and manual is better for cars of that vintage, where they exist.
Double clutch, however, is a leap forward an much better. Currently have a Ferrari FF and it works so well with the DCT box.
To have the last word on this thread - maybe - I maintain that the Z4MC, with some light mods, is the best modern M car that I have owned and driven and at under £30k, is a massive bargain.
Leins said:
Baddie said:
Leins said:
Having owned both a 3.8 and an E46 CSL at the same time, I would tend to agree. I do like an E30 too though…
Interesting, I’d like to hear more. I’ve had two 3.8’s, a 5 sp and a 6 sp, covered 60k miles. Brilliant cars in all weathers at all speeds, always on your side. And just a hint of cammy thuggishness from the old school engine, rocking the car at idle and the infra-bass of the exhaust gently rattling windows of nearby houses. It was like a TVR in an Ercole Spada suit. Could drive 4-500 miles and want to turn around at the end and do it again. The way that Paul Rosche 6 smoothed out and came into its zone at 4k always felt special.
The M5 blew me away. It was a thug of a car (Eisenmann Sport and a decat ramped up the naughtiness!
), the finest engine I’ve ever owned, it’s the best looking BMW of all time to these eyes, it drove like nothing else I’ve experienced with four doors, and it just felt so so specialI found I could use it as a daily (it was actually a lot more reliable when used as such!), as a phenomenal cross-country express, and then drove the socks off it at the weekend just for fun. All very subjective I know, but for me it was probably the more special of the two
The fact that I sold them at the same time and the CSL was 12 times the value of the M5 doesn’t really matter to me, it would still be the E34 I’d want back more I think
Matthew7711 said:
CarCrazyDad said:
I haven't driven a CSL,
That’s all folks.I haven't driven one either but don't want to - I'd prefer a manual CS or a CSL with a manual conversion as as some CSL owners have done.
But my Z4M with a manual ZF gearbox is so much better than my 7 previous BMWs with Getrag boxes, and they seem to be cheaper than E46 M3s.
athol said:
To have the last word on this thread - maybe - I maintain that the Z4MC, with some light mods, is the best modern M car that I have owned and driven and at under £30k, is a massive bargain.
I adore the way they look, but for me they are one of the most flawed M cars ever made as a standard car though. That is either a good or bad thing depending on your perspective though. I couldn't trust mine(roadster) at all down a bumpy B road because the suspension has absolutely zero give in it, and apart from the 1982 Skoda Estelle I had the manual gearbox was the worst that I've ever used. I didnt gel with mine at all(and I don't mind a scary drive because I had a TVR Cerbera for 6 years). The E92 M3 that I had after the Z4M was a total revelation, and that had a great chassis/suspension/ride in comparison for me, and I even warmed to the manual gearbox in it too.
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