RE: Final EU vote on 2035 engine phaseout delayed

RE: Final EU vote on 2035 engine phaseout delayed

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Discussion

dvs_dave

9,003 posts

231 months

Tuesday 4th April 2023
quotequote all
Strangely Brown said:
dvs_dave said:
Strangely Brown said:
911hope said:
Strangely Brown said:
911hope said:
That's just a line that you have swallowed.

What is your thinking? What expertise did you apply while adopting your views.

Please be specific, otherwise you cannot be taken seriously.
There are well respected climate scientists who actually worked on the IPCC reports and have given plenty of details and reasoning but you [the royal you] dismiss them as shills, crackpots and conspiracy theorists so why the hell are you going to listen to me. You can choose to listen to people who know what they are talking about and actually wrote the bloody reports or you can listen to government "experts" through the media and hysterical activists.

You make your choice. I'll make mine.
Are you saying the IPCC reports don't suggest a climate change problem? Have you checked yourself what they say?

Is that your position?

Did you come to that conclusion on your own, or did you just believe someone?
I refer the honourable gentleman to the highlighted section of my previous post.
What you actually want to say is “do your own research”, but daren’t for fear of further ridicule from us, the sheeple. laugh
I refer the honourable gentleman to the highlighted section of my earlier post.
“Everyone is telling me I’m wrong and presenting irrefutable facts in support of that”

“I can’t provide any facts in support of my position, I just believe it to be true”

“It’s a conspiracy and all these sheeple are a part of it so I must double down on my efforts to lead them to truth salvation.”



Strangely Brown

11,008 posts

237 months

Tuesday 4th April 2023
quotequote all
dvs_dave said:
“I can’t provide any facts in support of my position, I just believe it to be true”
There are plenty of facts in the reports and presented by both the authors and others who have studied them. You could look at those if you were really interested.

That said, it is not required to provide evidence in order to reject a proposition as the burden of proof is always on the person(s) making the claim. In the case of climate change the proposition is that we are facing imminent climate disaster. The data do not support that proposition and there is nothing in the IPCC reports that say anything about imminent disaster or any "tipping point" - That's according to the people that wrote them and have studied them. The claims are constructs from the summaries for policy makers used by politicians, amplified in the media and radicalised by activists. Therefore I reject the proposition.

NMNeil

5,860 posts

56 months

Tuesday 4th April 2023
quotequote all
Strangely Brown said:
You're missing the point. They might well pull out of the ICE in the UK and only sell EVs here, but the cars will still be made for other markets and if the political landscape changes in future then they could return.

I am pretty sure that the world is not going to look like you think it will in the future. The drive to Net-Zero is not going to play out like they think it will.
OPEC is cutting production to push the price of oil up, which is effectively shooting themselves in the foot because it will probably increase the sales of EV's. So no, the ICE engine won't be returning.
https://cleantechnica.com/2022/10/10/how-does-the-...

otolith

58,722 posts

210 months

Tuesday 4th April 2023
quotequote all
Strangely Brown said:
[
Why would I not want to hear what the authors of the reports, or the reports themselves, have to say...
Here is the summary for policymakers of the latest report.

https://report.ipcc.ch/ar6syr/pdf/IPCC_AR6_SYR_SPM...

It includes a list of authors.

Which of those authors disagree with which assertions?

Or do you mean that someone who contributed in the past and now works for the fossil fuel lobby disagrees with current research?



911hope

3,302 posts

32 months

Tuesday 4th April 2023
quotequote all
otolith said:
Here is the summary for policymakers of the latest report.

https://report.ipcc.ch/ar6syr/pdf/IPCC_AR6_SYR_SPM...

It includes a list of authors.

Which of those authors disagree with which assertions?

Or do you mean that someone who contributed in the past and now works for the fossil fuel lobby disagrees with current research?
It is difficult to understand why SB keeps pointing to the IPCC reports as evidence for his anti-climate-change stance. The IPCC reports are very clear that there is a serious problem that needs addressing.

Clearly SB has not actually read this material and is being fooled by his crackpot influencers and he blindly believes them.

Perhaps he can counter this by pointing to some specific evidence..more likely that he will repeat the usual mantra and possibly vaguely point to the IPCC reports again.

Edited by 911hope on Tuesday 4th April 15:10

911hope

3,302 posts

32 months

Tuesday 4th April 2023
quotequote all
Strangely Brown said:
It's not the vast majority of the relevant scientific community. That is just part of the narrative.
Keep saying "the narrative"..

That will really persuade people of your argument.

911hope

3,302 posts

32 months

Tuesday 4th April 2023
quotequote all
Strangely Brown said:
There are plenty of facts in the reports and presented by both the authors and others who have studied them. You could look at those if you were really interested.

That said, it is not required to provide evidence in order to reject a proposition as the burden of proof is always on the person(s) making the claim. In the case of climate change the proposition is that we are facing imminent climate disaster. The data do not support that proposition and there is nothing in the IPCC reports that say anything about imminent disaster or any "tipping point" - That's according to the people that wrote them and have studied them. The claims are constructs from the summaries for policy makers used by politicians, amplified in the media and radicalised by activists. Therefore I reject the proposition.
You have never read the IPCC reports, have you?

pheonix478

1,880 posts

44 months

Tuesday 4th April 2023
quotequote all
Have we had "critical thinking" or "so called experts" yet?

James6112

5,326 posts

34 months

Tuesday 4th April 2023
quotequote all
2035
There will be many u-turns
Who knows where we’ll be then?
I wouldn’t let a fictional 2035 policy affect my decisions now!

tamore

7,782 posts

290 months

Tuesday 4th April 2023
quotequote all
Strangely Brown said:
You're missing the point. They might well pull out of the ICE in the UK and only sell EVs here, but the cars will still be made for other markets and if the political landscape changes in future then they could return.

I am pretty sure that the world is not going to look like you think it will in the future. The drive to Net-Zero is not going to play out like they think it will.
once ICE car use hits a certain level, fuel stations will close. importing cars after that point may be possible, but re enabling the fuelling network probably not.

SpeckledJim

31,608 posts

259 months

Tuesday 4th April 2023
quotequote all
James6112 said:
2035
There will be many u-turns
Who knows where we’ll be then?
I wouldn’t let a fictional 2035 policy affect my decisions now!
How many is 'many'?

If there are an even number then we're back in the same direction.

We need answers, dagnammit!


500TORQUES

6,291 posts

21 months

Tuesday 4th April 2023
quotequote all
tamore said:
once ICE car use hits a certain level, fuel stations will close. importing cars after that point may be possible, but re enabling the fuelling network probably not.
Can i borrow your crystal ball please?

We are a long way from tradional fuel being unavailable and based on the government plans for hydrogen roll out by 2035, you'll likely see tradional fuel stations diversify to provide current liquid and hydrogen for goods vehicles.

GT9

7,435 posts

178 months

Tuesday 4th April 2023
quotequote all
James6112 said:
2035
There will be many u-turns
Who knows where we’ll be then?
I wouldn’t let a fictional 2035 policy affect my decisions now!
Not for new cars there won't.
Most of the large European manufacturers are going to be fully electric or thereabouts long before then.
Skillsets for ICE specific elements are being retrained or redeployed now, not in 10 years time.
The die is already cast, I'm not sure what your vision of a u-turn is?

tamore

7,782 posts

290 months

Wednesday 5th April 2023
quotequote all
500TORQUES said:
tamore said:
once ICE car use hits a certain level, fuel stations will close. importing cars after that point may be possible, but re enabling the fuelling network probably not.
Can i borrow your crystal ball please?

We are a long way from tradional fuel being unavailable and based on the government plans for hydrogen roll out by 2035, you'll likely see tradional fuel stations diversify to provide current liquid and hydrogen for goods vehicles.
so my supposition is crystal ball stuff, and yours is 'likely'. oky doky.

i think it's as likely as the hydrogen refuelling wagons being drawn by teams of pink unicorns. that's what my shiny balls say anyway wink

Edited by tamore on Wednesday 5th April 07:35

911hope

3,302 posts

32 months

Wednesday 5th April 2023
quotequote all
pheonix478 said:
Have we had "critical thinking" or "so called experts" yet?
These are well used phrases..part of the toolkit. Also important to refer to conspiracy, "vested interests".


SpeckledJim

31,608 posts

259 months

Wednesday 5th April 2023
quotequote all
500TORQUES said:
tamore said:
once ICE car use hits a certain level, fuel stations will close. importing cars after that point may be possible, but re enabling the fuelling network probably not.
Can i borrow your crystal ball please?

We are a long way from tradional fuel being unavailable and based on the government plans for hydrogen roll out by 2035, you'll likely see tradional fuel stations diversify to provide current liquid and hydrogen for goods vehicles.
Really! How many fuel stations will you need before you’re ready to buy a hydrogen powered car?


TheBinarySheep

1,218 posts

57 months

Wednesday 5th April 2023
quotequote all
Wow, BEV vehicles are 80% of new vehicle sales in Norway. I never knew that. It must be difficult to shift ICE vehicles there.

I wonder how fuel stations are copying as the demand for fuel must have dropped?

Should we be looking at Norway as an example of where things are going?

havoc

30,784 posts

241 months

Wednesday 5th April 2023
quotequote all
TheBinarySheep said:
Wow, BEV vehicles are 80% of new vehicle sales in Norway. I never knew that. It must be difficult to shift ICE vehicles there.

I wonder how fuel stations are copying as the demand for fuel must have dropped?

Should we be looking at Norway as an example of where things are going?
No.

Norway taxes a LOT of imported things very heavily, and salaries there are massively inflated vs their peers in central Europe to compensate (nearly 40% higher avg wage than the UK, and higher even than Germany).
This set-up only works because Norway still has North Sea oil & gas, and because they invested nearly all of their profits from oil and gas into state funds which pay for a lot of the national infrastructure.

Note that:-
- Almost nothing else is made-in / exported-from Norway. It's massively uncompetitive. Without oil & gas they'd be bankrupt as a country.
- Prices for things are obscenely high. EVs are only popular because they don't attract such high taxes. Non-EVs are hit with a one-off purchase tax of close to £10k. And EVs (historically) have been exempt from 25% VAT and from the weight-based purchase fee that all cars have to pay.
(e.g. a 330d X-Drive in the UK is £47k before options. In Norway it's 720k kroner. A Tesla-3 Performance is £57k in the UK. In Norway it's 537k kroner. A 62% swing in pricing.)

500TORQUES

6,291 posts

21 months

Wednesday 5th April 2023
quotequote all
SpeckledJim said:
500TORQUES said:
tamore said:
once ICE car use hits a certain level, fuel stations will close. importing cars after that point may be possible, but re enabling the fuelling network probably not.
Can i borrow your crystal ball please?

We are a long way from tradional fuel being unavailable and based on the government plans for hydrogen roll out by 2035, you'll likely see tradional fuel stations diversify to provide current liquid and hydrogen for goods vehicles.
Really! How many fuel stations will you need before you’re ready to buy a hydrogen powered car?
Try reading what was written, it helps on a forum.

SpeckledJim

31,608 posts

259 months

Wednesday 5th April 2023
quotequote all
500TORQUES said:
SpeckledJim said:
500TORQUES said:
tamore said:
once ICE car use hits a certain level, fuel stations will close. importing cars after that point may be possible, but re enabling the fuelling network probably not.
Can i borrow your crystal ball please?

We are a long way from tradional fuel being unavailable and based on the government plans for hydrogen roll out by 2035, you'll likely see tradional fuel stations diversify to provide current liquid and hydrogen for goods vehicles.
Really! How many fuel stations will you need before you’re ready to buy a hydrogen powered car?
Try reading what was written, it helps on a forum.
Let's go the other way round then.

You own a petrol station. How many Toyota Mirais do you need to see driving past (or stranded at the side of the road) before you decide to invest a gigantic fortune in equipping your petrol station to sell hydrogen?

ETA: it seems that, rounding to the nearest 300 cars, there are zero (!) Toyota Mirai on the road in the UK. Are you going to buy one to help the project along?

https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/?q=mirai&commit=...



Edited by SpeckledJim on Wednesday 5th April 21:15