RE: Tell me I'm wrong: Honda Civic Type R (EP3)
Discussion
elementad said:
Crashing and chattering teeth over pot holes is part of owning a focused sports car.
Absolutely no way, absolutely no way at all. A bangy-crashy ride is that of an undeveloped car, and it is something that any fool can achieve. Ye gods, Lotus proved that a stiff ride was unnecessary back in the early sixties. (there's been several points I've wanted to address reading through the thread, but haven't got time but couldn't let this one go).
Any chav can and does achieve a rubbish, too-stiff ride quality with his car. It's dead easy to do.
Getting a high quality level of handling coupled with a good, poised ride quality is much harder, and a sign of greatness imo. Cars such as Elan, E-Type, Golf, MX5, McLaren F1, Elise and many a French hot-hatch have achieved this, but far more have failed, and it's largely something that has eluded the Japanese, imo.
There's only one thing an overly stiff ride achieves on a road car, and that is to slow it right down on the very roads where it's supposed to be fast.
Ali_T said:
One of my biggest regrets was buying an EP3 over a heavily discounted last of the line DC2. In hindsight, the DC2 was far the better car. In fact, I'd happily say my 1992 EG6 VTi was a better car in everything bar grip, and it wasn't far behind there.
I wonder if there's a way to find your posts from a decade ago on the Evo forum...? I think you liked it quite vociferously then 
What I still remember fondly is the character of the thing. It may have had numb steering and a bouncy rear end, but nobody would ever have called it boring in the way a Golf GTI could be labelled.
I largely agree. I test drove one and expected something wonderous, only to find lifeless and numb steering and a ride quality that makes an S-Line Audi A4 seem supple in comparison. After about 10 minutes I stuck it in top gear and pootled back to the dealership. Very disappointing. But, oh, that engine. It was dynamite, especially when I dropped one into my Lotus Elise. A car to do it justice.
I currently own an EP3 and have done for two years now. As mentioned already the EP3 is a drivers car, it's a Japanese hot hatch, NOT a motorway cruiser or family car. It is designed to be driven on the limit and after a spirited drive on my favourite B-roads it really gets your adrenaline pumping, unlike alot of other turboed cars that you just sit back, relax and put your foot down.
Jobbo said:
I wonder if there's a way to find your posts from a decade ago on the Evo forum...? I think you liked it quite vociferously then
What I still remember fondly is the character of the thing. It may have had numb steering and a bouncy rear end, but nobody would ever have called it boring in the way a Golf GTI could be labelled.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing Si. And I enjoyed winding monkeybeats (or whatever that Hartge Mini driver's name was) far more than the car.... ; )What I still remember fondly is the character of the thing. It may have had numb steering and a bouncy rear end, but nobody would ever have called it boring in the way a Golf GTI could be labelled.
How is the old place, you don't still frequent it, do you? Has Steveo's head disappeared completely up Nick's arse yet? :P
otolith said:
The comments about other hatches being better equipped and having a more relaxing power delivery pinpoint the polarisation of the hot hatch market. A hot hatch is a compromise, achieved by souping up some very mundane hardware. The result of this is a combination of performance, practicality and price which makes the car attractive to a wide range of people who would otherwise be unable to own something quite so good. The polarisation comes into play when you ask what the no-compromise alternative would be.
Some people buy a hot hatch because they can't live with the impracticality of the sportscar they would really like. Other people buy a hot hatch because they can't afford the executive saloon car they would really like. If you are buying one because you can't have a 330i, you are going to favour a different style of hot hatch to someone who is buying one because he can't have an Elise. The VAG cars with turbocharged engines, plush interiors and lots of equipment are at one end of the scale, the Honda at the other. It doesn't make one better than the other, it makes them different.
The EP3's interior had good seats, a great driving position, perfectly positioned controls and sod all else. It had a brilliant engine and gearbox which demanded that you thrash the tits off it - though to be fair it was perfectly tractable and civilised if you didn't, it just drove like an ordinary two litre hatchback at low revs. I quite liked that split personality. The ride quality was harsh, the tyre noise on the motorway was poor and the stereo was crap. None of that really bothered me. Even the much maligned steering ceased to be an irritation once I'd lived with it for a while - I had a 306XSi before it, so the contrast was noticeable, but you get used to it. I liked the fact that it encouraged you to take it by the scruff, I liked the pointy front end and throttle sensitivity and I never once mourned the lack of toys. Maybe if I'd bought it to commute through town traffic I'd have had a different view.
The EP3 was certainly flawed, but as a package it was what I really wanted at the time. In terms of concept, if not quite in execution, it was perfect. I'd wanted a hot Honda for years after reading reviews of the old Civic VTi when insuring one of the damn things would have been too expensive, so when the Type-R came out, Bulgin and the other CAR writers had already sold it to me:
That was a wonderful period of car mag journalism and I have a loft full of that stuff that I can't bring myself to part with... but that's one bunch of second-rate hot hatches there. Not a legend amongst them, unless counting the Honda of course. Some people buy a hot hatch because they can't live with the impracticality of the sportscar they would really like. Other people buy a hot hatch because they can't afford the executive saloon car they would really like. If you are buying one because you can't have a 330i, you are going to favour a different style of hot hatch to someone who is buying one because he can't have an Elise. The VAG cars with turbocharged engines, plush interiors and lots of equipment are at one end of the scale, the Honda at the other. It doesn't make one better than the other, it makes them different.
The EP3's interior had good seats, a great driving position, perfectly positioned controls and sod all else. It had a brilliant engine and gearbox which demanded that you thrash the tits off it - though to be fair it was perfectly tractable and civilised if you didn't, it just drove like an ordinary two litre hatchback at low revs. I quite liked that split personality. The ride quality was harsh, the tyre noise on the motorway was poor and the stereo was crap. None of that really bothered me. Even the much maligned steering ceased to be an irritation once I'd lived with it for a while - I had a 306XSi before it, so the contrast was noticeable, but you get used to it. I liked the fact that it encouraged you to take it by the scruff, I liked the pointy front end and throttle sensitivity and I never once mourned the lack of toys. Maybe if I'd bought it to commute through town traffic I'd have had a different view.
The EP3 was certainly flawed, but as a package it was what I really wanted at the time. In terms of concept, if not quite in execution, it was perfect. I'd wanted a hot Honda for years after reading reviews of the old Civic VTi when insuring one of the damn things would have been too expensive, so when the Type-R came out, Bulgin and the other CAR writers had already sold it to me:
I'm sorry to say I agree with the negative comments on the CTR. Not long after they came out I test drove a CTR, a Clio 172, a Leon Cupra and a Focus ST170. The Focus just didn't sparkle, the Clio was a hoot and the Leon was the one I would have put my money in due to it's easy delivery of power (in the end the money went on a house purchase).
I loved the gear change on the Civic and the engine was a peach but during my brief 30 minute drive I couldn't gel with it and it came third out of the four listed, just in front of the Focus.
However the S2000 I borrowed for a day, my mates 1993 Civic VTi and my other mates 1989 CRX I loved and still have fond memories of all three. I still hanker after a DC2 or DC5 ITR as well.
I loved the gear change on the Civic and the engine was a peach but during my brief 30 minute drive I couldn't gel with it and it came third out of the four listed, just in front of the Focus.
However the S2000 I borrowed for a day, my mates 1993 Civic VTi and my other mates 1989 CRX I loved and still have fond memories of all three. I still hanker after a DC2 or DC5 ITR as well.
Wrong im affraid Mr Harris sir. I bought the run out model as a pre registered dealer special nearly 6 years ago.. and we're still together with over 75,000 miles behind us.. my previous car was 172 cup, which was an absolute joy to drive but very fragile and costly as a result. the Ep3 has proved to be bullet proof the only fly in the ointment being a faulty radio.. any way enough of the boring stuff.. the drive! admittedly in the first few months i did have to constantly drive it as if i had stolen it, but after that you learn to be civilised when not in a hurry and only change up at 5000rpm :-p its actually relatively frugal with 30mpg easy enough. the gear change is sublime, and the noise from the v tec is amazing especially with a k and n typhoon filter ( the only mod i ever did) ... i do often find myself slowing down in tunnels and cracking the window open. i did find the handling a bit bland after the 3 wheeled lift off oversteer of my cup, but if you learn how to chuck it in hard enough with the right amount of brake, over steer can be easily achieved.. quite a laughable amount in the right conditions. anyway, a weekend may not be enough to judge it.. but after nearly 6 years i havent found the right replacement which offers the same experience. certainly not the fn2. its how a hot hatch should be. no bells or whistles ( mine doesnt have air con, sat nav etc) just a screaming engine, rifle bolt gear change, decent brakes,good seats and bulletproof reliability.. discuss.
I'd agree with the main article. I test drove back to back against a 172 Cup via Elise and S2K ownership. Much like the way I didn't like the S2K, I didn't warm to the Civic either which at the time was significantly more expensive than a pre-registered 172 Cup which was 12k vs Civic 17k.
I just couldn't see the fuss or fun in it, yet the 172 Cup was totally chuckable fun, lighter, more economical, cheaper.
Edit - Actually there is a review in my profile saying something the same. 2004. Jesus Christ, where has time gone.
I just couldn't see the fuss or fun in it, yet the 172 Cup was totally chuckable fun, lighter, more economical, cheaper.
Edit - Actually there is a review in my profile saying something the same. 2004. Jesus Christ, where has time gone.
I currently own a premier edition EP3, and i have to say i love it. it is a perfect B-road car, alot of fun, Handling was improved massively after i put some -30mm Eibachs ABP springs on. But yes electric steering isn't amazing, but it still handles very well.
Owning a CTR gave me soo many options with regards to modification, and with a induction kit, decat manifold, exhaust, the car transforms, and when it comes to straight line performance it is on par with a 08 Astra VXR(with a decat exhaust), quicker then a RX8 (with exhaust) and a Focus ST2, so not really that bad in a straight line.
Yes the JDM EP3 is better,faster, has a LSD, comes in white... and the DC5 integra is amazing, handles better etc, but for the price of them is ridiculous, coupled with their age and the lack of understandable service history, and the increased import insurance costs for younger drivers.
Yes the're not the best hot hatch ever made, but for NA breadvan hatchback they are hard to beat.
Just my 2p worth.
and some pics of mine:
M
Owning a CTR gave me soo many options with regards to modification, and with a induction kit, decat manifold, exhaust, the car transforms, and when it comes to straight line performance it is on par with a 08 Astra VXR(with a decat exhaust), quicker then a RX8 (with exhaust) and a Focus ST2, so not really that bad in a straight line.
Yes the JDM EP3 is better,faster, has a LSD, comes in white... and the DC5 integra is amazing, handles better etc, but for the price of them is ridiculous, coupled with their age and the lack of understandable service history, and the increased import insurance costs for younger drivers.
Yes the're not the best hot hatch ever made, but for NA breadvan hatchback they are hard to beat.
Just my 2p worth.
and some pics of mine:
M
Edited by Mehdi on Wednesday 11th January 20:03
Ali_T said:
Hindsight is a wonderful thing Si. And I enjoyed winding monkeybeats (or whatever that Hartge Mini driver's name was) far more than the car.... ; )
How is the old place, you don't still frequent it, do you? Has Steveo's head disappeared completely up Nick's arse yet? :P
Shouldn't your have your arm up a cow's arse, or something? How is the old place, you don't still frequent it, do you? Has Steveo's head disappeared completely up Nick's arse yet? :P
I drove info these before I purchased my Focus ST2 Mountune.
I simply felt it wasn't fast enough and felt a bit "tinny" it was a decent car to have a quick drive around in but even after half hour or so it felt like it had to driven hard but when it was it weren't that fast maybe in 2001 it may have been different.
My focus is notably faster (not even worth comparing), the steering and feedback was better, the ride was better and even though my focus can feel a bit "wallowy" it's usually because you are generally approaching the corners faster.
I don't mind the civic I just couldn't look beyond what I thought were pretty big flaws compared to rivals.
I simply felt it wasn't fast enough and felt a bit "tinny" it was a decent car to have a quick drive around in but even after half hour or so it felt like it had to driven hard but when it was it weren't that fast maybe in 2001 it may have been different.
My focus is notably faster (not even worth comparing), the steering and feedback was better, the ride was better and even though my focus can feel a bit "wallowy" it's usually because you are generally approaching the corners faster.
I don't mind the civic I just couldn't look beyond what I thought were pretty big flaws compared to rivals.
Baryonyx said:
The Civic Type R is the perfect antidote to hot hatch drivers who are becoming lazy, or starting to feel jaded with the power wars.
So true. Honda begs you to use the gears. Choice of tires - and correct pressure please - is key and I agree: a too stiff set up serves no purpose.
So please ask your garage to set the car up properly for you sir . . . and you'll love it.
To amuse you:
And yup, that's GW.
Zaim said:
I'm sorry to say I agree with the negative comments on the CTR. Not long after they came out I test drove a CTR, a Clio 172, a Leon Cupra and a Focus ST170. The Focus just didn't sparkle, the Clio was a hoot and the Leon was the one I would have put my money in due to it's easy delivery of power (in the end the money went on a house purchase).
I loved the gear change on the Civic and the engine was a peach but during my brief 30 minute drive I couldn't gel with it and it came third out of the four listed, just in front of the Focus.
However the S2000 I borrowed for a day, my mates 1993 Civic VTi and my other mates 1989 CRX I loved and still have fond memories of all three. I still hanker after a DC2 or DC5 ITR as well.
Wonder what you'd have said about the CTR if you'd driven 20,000 miles in one instead of 30 minutes?I loved the gear change on the Civic and the engine was a peach but during my brief 30 minute drive I couldn't gel with it and it came third out of the four listed, just in front of the Focus.
However the S2000 I borrowed for a day, my mates 1993 Civic VTi and my other mates 1989 CRX I loved and still have fond memories of all three. I still hanker after a DC2 or DC5 ITR as well.
I did 20,000 miles in mine, loved every minute of it, and only sold it because the dog got too big to fit in the back.
heebeegeetee said:
elementad said:
Crashing and chattering teeth over pot holes is part of owning a focused sports car.
Absolutely no way, absolutely no way at all. A bangy-crashy ride is that of an undeveloped car, and it is something that any fool can achieve. Ye gods, Lotus proved that a stiff ride was unnecessary back in the early sixties. (there's been several points I've wanted to address reading through the thread, but haven't got time but couldn't let this one go).
Any chav can and does achieve a rubbish, too-stiff ride quality with his car. It's dead easy to do.
Getting a high quality level of handling coupled with a good, poised ride quality is much harder, and a sign of greatness imo. Cars such as Elan, E-Type, Golf, MX5, McLaren F1, Elise and many a French hot-hatch have achieved this, but far more have failed, and it's largely something that has eluded the Japanese, imo.
There's only one thing an overly stiff ride achieves on a road car, and that is to slow it right down on the very roads where it's supposed to be fast.
This car you DIDN'T have to "slow right down on the very roads it's supposed to be fast". It worked. Unless you owned one you wouldn't know so I'll let you off.
I sold mine back in 2006 so I'm not going to be posting or debating too heavily on this thread, but Im happy knowing that I owned a future classic that was without doubt the top of it's game in its time.
And anyone who was serious about buying this car back then but snuffed it because of the suspension is quite frankly a puff and they missed out
The EP3 was one of the few cars that needed zero modifications for solid track days manners. They suspension was spot one, brakes pretty fade free and the vtec inspiring. Very true that once out of the power band it was dull so it was hard work to keep it on the boil. I must had done around 10 track days at Knockhill completely grief free. Took many an Impreza scalp on the twisties too !
Aside from that I loved the touring car style gear change, practicality and low running costs. I owned mine new in 2003 for 3 years.
Looking back, the suspension was crashy around town and it did seem very slow and dull under 4k. Having gone turbo thereafter with 3 Impreza's, and 3 Golf Gti's I agree that it's had it's day for me.
In summary, a lack of torque is it's downfall for me as you wont always have a nice B-road to stretch it's legs on. The latest Civic's are woeful though. One thing is for sure though, the v-tec bark will never leave you and you'll always enjoy driving through tunnels !
Aside from that I loved the touring car style gear change, practicality and low running costs. I owned mine new in 2003 for 3 years.
Looking back, the suspension was crashy around town and it did seem very slow and dull under 4k. Having gone turbo thereafter with 3 Impreza's, and 3 Golf Gti's I agree that it's had it's day for me.
In summary, a lack of torque is it's downfall for me as you wont always have a nice B-road to stretch it's legs on. The latest Civic's are woeful though. One thing is for sure though, the v-tec bark will never leave you and you'll always enjoy driving through tunnels !
I bought an EP3 CTR back in 2004.
I remember quite well that I had read loads of reviews on this car before I bought one, but when I did my first 30 minute test-drive in one, I have to admit that I was a bit disappointed, but not enough to stop me requesting a second, unaccompanied and more thorough test-drive for the week after.
On driving it a second time, for a full morning, I suddenly fell in love with the manic little bugger, and promptly ordered one.....
Since that car, I`ve owned quite a few of the "usual suspects".......Focus ST, Astra VXR, Mk5 Golf GTI, Mk5 R32, and a host of others, and even though some of them have been better all-rounders, none of them has ever been quite as much fun.
The best analogy I can think of is to say that I`ve been riding large-capacity sportsbikes for the last 20 years, and as anyone that has ridden one will know, they are an amazing blast, and the CTR was the nearest thing that I`ve driven that gives you the same feeling, ie; it just wants to be thrashed !
For what it`s worth, a few years later I bought an FN2, which I didn`t enjoy half as much, as Honda had somehow made it "friendlier" than the EP3 ever was, and IMHO, spoilt what had been a thoroughly barking-mad driving experience.
I like to think that one of these days I might just get myself another EP3 to enjoy again.......
I remember quite well that I had read loads of reviews on this car before I bought one, but when I did my first 30 minute test-drive in one, I have to admit that I was a bit disappointed, but not enough to stop me requesting a second, unaccompanied and more thorough test-drive for the week after.
On driving it a second time, for a full morning, I suddenly fell in love with the manic little bugger, and promptly ordered one.....
Since that car, I`ve owned quite a few of the "usual suspects".......Focus ST, Astra VXR, Mk5 Golf GTI, Mk5 R32, and a host of others, and even though some of them have been better all-rounders, none of them has ever been quite as much fun.
The best analogy I can think of is to say that I`ve been riding large-capacity sportsbikes for the last 20 years, and as anyone that has ridden one will know, they are an amazing blast, and the CTR was the nearest thing that I`ve driven that gives you the same feeling, ie; it just wants to be thrashed !
For what it`s worth, a few years later I bought an FN2, which I didn`t enjoy half as much, as Honda had somehow made it "friendlier" than the EP3 ever was, and IMHO, spoilt what had been a thoroughly barking-mad driving experience.
I like to think that one of these days I might just get myself another EP3 to enjoy again.......
HeMightBeBanned said:
I largely agree. I test drove one and expected something wonderous, only to find lifeless and numb steering and a ride quality that makes an S-Line Audi A4 seem supple in comparison. After about 10 minutes I stuck it in top gear and pootled back to the dealership. Very disappointing. But, oh, that engine. It was dynamite, especially when I dropped one into my Lotus Elise. A car to do it justice.
I'd agree with this - steering/ride ruined it for me. An Elise/Exige is the best place for that engine.
Edit: Chris has upset the MX-5 and CTR brigade - all's left is the 1-series lot and he'll have the full set.
Edited by donna180 on Wednesday 11th January 21:23
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