RE: Has turbocharging ruined the 911
Discussion
chrispmartha said:
I agree with this, i aspire to own a 911 but have absolutely no desire to own a GTR they just leave me cold im afraid.
The GTR is potentially a very rapid car....but that is all can be said in its favour. Essentially a flawed package, its engine makes a 911 Turbo sound as characterful as a GT3s....
Its lack of involvement, weight and size is its biggest achillees heel.......useless for both track and the typical UK road. And then theres that godawful interior....chav central.
av185 said:
ORD said:
I cannot think of a single car under £50k that interests me (or over £50k, tbh).
In fact......no new car is of interest to you!?As a PHer, I find this extremely unlikely.
I quite like Lotuses and the new MX5.But other than that, I cannot think of any. The sporty cars are almost all auto-only, and that makes them a complete write-off to me.
ORD said:
chrispmartha said:
not even a Cayman GT4?
Not sure. The gears being so long and the auto-blip would put me off quite badly. I am also not really sure about that engine. I would much prefer a tuned up 3.4.
I think the Cayman R is probably still the best Cayman.
The Cayman R always seemed a bit half arsed to me but it's not a GT car.
ORD said:
chrispmartha said:
not even a Cayman GT4?
Not sure. The gears being so long and the auto-blip would put me off quite badly. .
Most owners during real world driving are finding the gearing fine.
ORD said:
Are you talking about the 2.0 AMG engine in the hot hatch thing? I am struggling to think of a more horrid sounding engine for a sports car. It sounds like a demented rally rep with a broken exhaust.
Yes, that's the one. Some ludicrous engineering going on, no matter what it sounds like (very contrived with the AMG exhaust) - the new version is going to be knocking on the door of 190hp/litre. That being said one of my favourite cars to drive in recent times was a very basic 981 Boxster - not even the S. Incredibly slow, and I nearly had a heart attack when I saw the sticker price - £50k - but my life it felt worth every penny.
ORD said:
cerb4.5lee said:
ORD said:
You also only get 2 small back seats. What a rip off. A Mini-bus is way better value.
See what I did there? It's a perfect analogy.
The Nissan GTR is way better value whichever way you look at it though because it offers similar performance to the 911's halo model's(Turbo and Turbo S) for the price of the 911's base model...the only people that get ripped off are the ones that buy 911's. See what I did there? It's a perfect analogy.
You pay for the badge with a 911 and that is the bottom line and it's one of the few occasions where you don't get what you pay for.
(1) I look pleasant-looking cars. The GTR is absurdly ugly.
(2) I want a car that fits on our roads. The GTR is enormous.
(3) AWD is for rally cars and SUVs.
(4) I like engines. The GTR has a very dull turbo engine. The 911 has (until now) had one of the most exciting engines available in a road car.
(5) I could not care less about pub power and torque figures. Nor do I care about racing at traffic lights.
The 911 is pretty much universally regarded as being fantastic to drive (and it is, in my view), so your "badge" nonsense is just inverted car snobbery.
Point 4 I get but it's only the old 911's that are N/A now so it's a sign of the times to be fair and point 5 is usually something someone says if their car isn't that fast because its power/torque figures aren't all that and they will get blitzed at that lights.
ORD said:
It can feel quite slow - mostly down to having too much tyre and far too long gears for the engine.
1. In my experience a car which will pull 1g or so feels rather quick.2. Given the 911 has a 7-speed gearbox most drivers ought to be able to find one that's appropriate to connect the weedy 400 bhp engine to those slow tyres.
I actually like the GTR. I think it is an authentically Nipponese motoring experience, fro mthe styling to the tech. But I don't lust to own one.
Quick can be one dimension of fun and the ease with which a GTR would dispatch most dawdling traffic or wannabe taigaters could be useful on occasion (if corrupting, like any high performance car). But it would not be enough by itself for me. Th GTR is one of those cars that is quite a specific tool, if not a one-trick pony. Even if you believe the hype regarding UFO performance and that it delivers more than the naysayers argue it does in terms of tactility, involvement and interaction (which I think it does, if not in the same way as other cars), it's not really in direct competition with a 911 than it is with with a golf club membership.
As implied by the above post, concern with traffic GP antics / lap times betrays a set of priorities that are fundamentally different to my own (or most well-adjusted adults) when considering driving enjoyment.
Quick can be one dimension of fun and the ease with which a GTR would dispatch most dawdling traffic or wannabe taigaters could be useful on occasion (if corrupting, like any high performance car). But it would not be enough by itself for me. Th GTR is one of those cars that is quite a specific tool, if not a one-trick pony. Even if you believe the hype regarding UFO performance and that it delivers more than the naysayers argue it does in terms of tactility, involvement and interaction (which I think it does, if not in the same way as other cars), it's not really in direct competition with a 911 than it is with with a golf club membership.
As implied by the above post, concern with traffic GP antics / lap times betrays a set of priorities that are fundamentally different to my own (or most well-adjusted adults) when considering driving enjoyment.
Ozzie Osmond said:
ORD said:
It can feel quite slow - mostly down to having too much tyre and far too long gears for the engine.
1. In my experience a car which will pull 1g or so feels rather quick.2. Given the 911 has a 7-speed gearbox most drivers ought to be able to find one that's appropriate to connect the weedy 400 bhp engine to those slow tyres.
And cars with a lot of grip can FEEL slow because the driver never gets the sensation of being near the limit unless he is driving far too fast for our roads. We associate fast driving with a bit of drama. I guess it is from back when we drove hatch backs with no grip!
kambites said:
av185 said:
It is likely that Porsche GT cars will remain N/a for some time yet.
Hmm, will it really be worth them developing new naturally aspirated sixes just for the relatively small volume GT cars? Maybe that the GT4 would use the powerkit 430 bhp Carrera unit, the GT3 the existing RS unit and the RS......who knows? Time will tell.
ORD said:
Wrong car. I was responding to the post above mine.
And cars with a lot of grip can FEEL slow because the driver never gets the sensation of being near the limit unless he is driving far too fast for our roads. We associate fast driving with a bit of drama. I guess it is from back when we drove hatch backs with no grip!
+1And cars with a lot of grip can FEEL slow because the driver never gets the sensation of being near the limit unless he is driving far too fast for our roads. We associate fast driving with a bit of drama. I guess it is from back when we drove hatch backs with no grip!
F-Type AWD V8 is a good example. Massively quick car but it doesn't feel like much is going on, on public roads.
av185 said:
It is easy to underestimate the importance of the GT cars to Porsche.
I think it's also easy to underestimate how few people know or care about the engine. If they stick with natural aspiration for the 992 (or whatever it's called) GT3, there's a very real risk of it feeling slower than the cooking 911s. Personally, I rather suspect the 992 will be turbo only and quite possibly auto-only in all forms. Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff