RE: Defender at the Nurburgring!
Discussion
A Defender should be a simple to operate, easy to fix, hose downable, mud plugger not another Chelsea Tractor.
What's the betting it will be complicated, unreliable and can only be fixed in a dealership? But you will see many on the school run in London.
Another lifestyle vehicle.
What's the betting it will be complicated, unreliable and can only be fixed in a dealership? But you will see many on the school run in London.
Another lifestyle vehicle.
Edited by LarsG on Monday 25th March 15:41
LarsG said:
A Defender should be a simple to operate, easy to fix, hose downable, mud plugger not another Chelsea Tractor.
What's the betting it will be complicated, unreliable and can only be fixed in a dealership? But you will see many on the school run in London.
Another lifestyle vehicle.
But by the nature of the modern world and modern emissions and safety requirements, absolutely everything needs specialist tools to fix. Even something like the Jimmny will need a dealer to fix engine issues as the emissions control systems and exhaust filters are not user serviceable. Nothing designed and made in this day and age is user serviceable without significant knowledge of vehicle design and electronics.What's the betting it will be complicated, unreliable and can only be fixed in a dealership? But you will see many on the school run in London.
Another lifestyle vehicle.
Edited by LarsG on Monday 25th March 15:41
Unfortunately the fantasy land everyone wistfully muses about on here just doesn't exist. It doesn't stop plenty of new cars being sold though, and it won't stop the new Defender from being a great car.
When I took a drive around the landrover experience thingy, I asked the chap (who had a defender) if the Discovery was so good why did people buy defenders?
He explained people liked the fact they came looking a bit knackered, therefore didn't mind making them mucky, drilling into them, bashing them up a bit ect.
I'm guessing the average farmer is now driving other cheaper stuff for the mucky, trashing bit.
And the housewives want a nice clear RangeRover!
If they price them correctly, they'll sell, if not, all the mothers will buy something else.
If you're a fella in any of those baby RangeRovers, you must feel a little, well, feminine.
Defender F Series
He explained people liked the fact they came looking a bit knackered, therefore didn't mind making them mucky, drilling into them, bashing them up a bit ect.
I'm guessing the average farmer is now driving other cheaper stuff for the mucky, trashing bit.
And the housewives want a nice clear RangeRover!
If they price them correctly, they'll sell, if not, all the mothers will buy something else.
If you're a fella in any of those baby RangeRovers, you must feel a little, well, feminine.
Defender F Series
RacerMike said:
But by the nature of the modern world and modern emissions and safety requirements, absolutely everything needs specialist tools to fix. Even something like the Jimmny will need a dealer to fix engine issues as the emissions control systems and exhaust filters are not user serviceable. Nothing designed and made in this day and age is user serviceable without significant knowledge of vehicle design and electronics.
Unfortunately the fantasy land everyone wistfully muses about on here just doesn't exist. It doesn't stop plenty of new cars being sold though, and it won't stop the new Defender from being a great car.
The Jimny does not have exhaust filters.Unfortunately the fantasy land everyone wistfully muses about on here just doesn't exist. It doesn't stop plenty of new cars being sold though, and it won't stop the new Defender from being a great car.
It's petrol powered. It has a simple catalytic converter... that's it.
It's no more complicated than any late 90's/early 2000's fuel injected car.
skyrover said:
RacerMike said:
But by the nature of the modern world and modern emissions and safety requirements, absolutely everything needs specialist tools to fix. Even something like the Jimmny will need a dealer to fix engine issues as the emissions control systems and exhaust filters are not user serviceable. Nothing designed and made in this day and age is user serviceable without significant knowledge of vehicle design and electronics.
Unfortunately the fantasy land everyone wistfully muses about on here just doesn't exist. It doesn't stop plenty of new cars being sold though, and it won't stop the new Defender from being a great car.
The Jimny does not have exhaust filters.Unfortunately the fantasy land everyone wistfully muses about on here just doesn't exist. It doesn't stop plenty of new cars being sold though, and it won't stop the new Defender from being a great car.
It's petrol powered. It has a simple catalytic converter... that's it.
It's no more complicated than any late 90's/early 2000's fuel injected car.
I can assure you that even the Jimny will not have escaped the march of modern tech. It may look old and rugged, but it still needs to pass the latest crash tests and emissions regs and as such, will be far more complicated than it looks. And needless to say, the Jimny is a real basket case. Something that unrefined only works now in the price bracket it’s in. Absolutely no one will put up with a car that’s as poor on refinement as a Defender for £30k plus.
RacerMike said:
skyrover said:
RacerMike said:
But by the nature of the modern world and modern emissions and safety requirements, absolutely everything needs specialist tools to fix. Even something like the Jimmny will need a dealer to fix engine issues as the emissions control systems and exhaust filters are not user serviceable. Nothing designed and made in this day and age is user serviceable without significant knowledge of vehicle design and electronics.
Unfortunately the fantasy land everyone wistfully muses about on here just doesn't exist. It doesn't stop plenty of new cars being sold though, and it won't stop the new Defender from being a great car.
The Jimny does not have exhaust filters.Unfortunately the fantasy land everyone wistfully muses about on here just doesn't exist. It doesn't stop plenty of new cars being sold though, and it won't stop the new Defender from being a great car.
It's petrol powered. It has a simple catalytic converter... that's it.
It's no more complicated than any late 90's/early 2000's fuel injected car.
I can assure you that even the Jimny will not have escaped the march of modern tech. It may look old and rugged, but it still needs to pass the latest crash tests and emissions regs and as such, will be far more complicated than it looks. And needless to say, the Jimny is a real basket case. Something that unrefined only works now in the price bracket it’s in. Absolutely no one will put up with a car that’s as poor on refinement as a Defender for £30k plus.
And no, the Jimny really isn’t that complex. No more so than a 1989 Discovery 1.
The Jimny is clearly more complicated in its systems than an old Discovery, it’s silly to suggest otherwise.
Pickups generally still have cart-spring live rear axles because they’re really cheap to build for load carrying vehicles, and the market doesn’t (yet) demand that they offer car-like dynamics (but you surely understand why they have IFS). The Wrangler is an anomaly and the Defender needs to be far better than it.
Pickups generally still have cart-spring live rear axles because they’re really cheap to build for load carrying vehicles, and the market doesn’t (yet) demand that they offer car-like dynamics (but you surely understand why they have IFS). The Wrangler is an anomaly and the Defender needs to be far better than it.
NomduJour said:
The Jimny is clearly more complicated in its systems than an old Discovery, it’s silly to suggest otherwise.
Pickups generally still have cart-spring live rear axles because they’re really cheap to build for load carrying vehicles, and the market doesn’t (yet) demand that they offer car-like dynamics (but you surely understand why they have IFS). The Wrangler is an anomaly and the Defender needs to be far better than it.
Why do you think the Jimny is complicated? The new one looks cool. But it is by and large the old model with a new body shell. Pickups generally still have cart-spring live rear axles because they’re really cheap to build for load carrying vehicles, and the market doesn’t (yet) demand that they offer car-like dynamics (but you surely understand why they have IFS). The Wrangler is an anomaly and the Defender needs to be far better than it.
As for IFS on pick ups. I think it’s more public perception than anything else. The difference in handingly is minimal at best. And something most average drivers won’t be able to detect. I suspect the torsion bar system they use may offer packaging advantages and might be cheaper than a live axle.
Or put it this way. A Range Rover or Discovery with a live axle rides and steers better than something like a Vauxhall Frontera with IFS.
Not sure the Defender needs to be bette than the Wrangler. It never really has been in the past. Just more utility orientated. The current Wrangler is a superb bit of kit. It does have some complexity, but no more than any other modern vehicle. And will still be relatively friendly to the home mechanic in years to come.
Face it, the new defender will be a glorified Discovery and as temperamental. It'll be the school run choice for private school mums in London. Landrover is at the bottom end of reliability of all makes, not because it is a bad car, but because of all the electronic tech that goes in them.
The Defender was once a utilitarian vehicle, used by the military of which I drove many.
I also drove a Defender all the way to the Balkans during the war in the 1990's and back again. The fact that we were able to get a standard tool kit out and replace pretty much anything including brake callipers and suspension on the go was a huge boon. We lived in them for days in end. In fact in Italy we were able to source a new bonnet, spring and replace a caliper by the road side. Simple to fix.
No doubt there will be many that will fawn over the technology, leather seats and latest climate control but if you are in inhospitable territory, whether a jungle or war zone or mountainous roads or walkabout in the outback and it breaks down you won't be able to fix it on the go. The part you need will be factory order with a backlog of 3-4 months or you will need special tools. If you bend it you won't be able to hammer it straight and keep going.
Just another glorified SUV.
The Defender was once a utilitarian vehicle, used by the military of which I drove many.
I also drove a Defender all the way to the Balkans during the war in the 1990's and back again. The fact that we were able to get a standard tool kit out and replace pretty much anything including brake callipers and suspension on the go was a huge boon. We lived in them for days in end. In fact in Italy we were able to source a new bonnet, spring and replace a caliper by the road side. Simple to fix.
No doubt there will be many that will fawn over the technology, leather seats and latest climate control but if you are in inhospitable territory, whether a jungle or war zone or mountainous roads or walkabout in the outback and it breaks down you won't be able to fix it on the go. The part you need will be factory order with a backlog of 3-4 months or you will need special tools. If you bend it you won't be able to hammer it straight and keep going.
Just another glorified SUV.
Edited by LarsG on Monday 25th March 23:38
300bhp/ton said:
Why do you think the Jimny is complicated? The new one looks cool. But it is by and large the old model with a new body shell.
As for IFS on pick ups. I think it’s more public perception than anything else. The difference in handingly is minimal at best. And something most average drivers won’t be able to detect. I suspect the torsion bar system they use may offer packaging advantages and might be cheaper than a live axle.
Or put it this way. A Range Rover or Discovery with a live axle rides and steers better than something like a Vauxhall Frontera with IFS.
Not sure the Defender needs to be bette than the Wrangler. It never really has been in the past. Just more utility orientated. The current Wrangler is a superb bit of kit. It does have some complexity, but no more than any other modern vehicle. And will still be relatively friendly to the home mechanic in years to come.
Have a go at fixing a blocked GPF and let me know how it goes....As for IFS on pick ups. I think it’s more public perception than anything else. The difference in handingly is minimal at best. And something most average drivers won’t be able to detect. I suspect the torsion bar system they use may offer packaging advantages and might be cheaper than a live axle.
Or put it this way. A Range Rover or Discovery with a live axle rides and steers better than something like a Vauxhall Frontera with IFS.
Not sure the Defender needs to be bette than the Wrangler. It never really has been in the past. Just more utility orientated. The current Wrangler is a superb bit of kit. It does have some complexity, but no more than any other modern vehicle. And will still be relatively friendly to the home mechanic in years to come.
HINT: You need a dealer diagnostics tool and a special oven to bake the GPF in to burn off the particulates.
The complicated parts of a new car are not the suspension components. I don't think anyone is complaining that the axles have fallen off their Range Rover Velar. The issues are related to engine electronics, DPFs/GPFs and gearboxes. All things that any modern car has. Whether a new Defender had live axles or not, it wouldn't make any difference to the issues most owners seem to have. Do a bit of reading up on modern emissions control and what's required for Euro6 compliance, and you'll begin to understand that no new car is 'simple' anymore.
Edited by RacerMike on Tuesday 26th March 08:29
RacerMike said:
Have a go at fixing a blocked GPF and let me know how it goes....
HINT: You need a dealer diagnostics tool and a special oven to bake the GPF in to burn off the particulates.
The complicated parts of a new car are not the suspension components. I don't think anyone is complaining that the axles have fallen off their Range Rover Velar. The issues are related to engine electronics, DPFs/GPFs and gearboxes. All things that any modern car has. Whether a new Defender had live axles or not, it wouldn't make any difference to the issues most owners seem to have. Do a bit of reading up on modern emissions control and what's required for Euro6 compliance, and you'll begin to understand that no new car is 'simple' anymore.
I think you are missing the point.HINT: You need a dealer diagnostics tool and a special oven to bake the GPF in to burn off the particulates.
The complicated parts of a new car are not the suspension components. I don't think anyone is complaining that the axles have fallen off their Range Rover Velar. The issues are related to engine electronics, DPFs/GPFs and gearboxes. All things that any modern car has. Whether a new Defender had live axles or not, it wouldn't make any difference to the issues most owners seem to have. Do a bit of reading up on modern emissions control and what's required for Euro6 compliance, and you'll begin to understand that no new car is 'simple' anymore.
Edited by RacerMike on Tuesday 26th March 08:29
There are certain emissions equipment which ALL cars will have. But that doesn't mean the rest of the car needs to be equally complex with a zillion sensors for everything. It can still be made much more simple and rugged if they want too.
300bhp/ton said:
I think you are missing the point.
There are certain emissions equipment which ALL cars will have. But that doesn't mean the rest of the car needs to be equally complex with a zillion sensors for everything. It can still be made much more simple and rugged if they want too.
I think you're missing the point. The implication was that Land Rover should make a car that people can service themselves/repair using bits of tree/stick sand in the gearbox to fix it. The reality is that this is literally impossible with modern emissions and safety requirements. As I said, the mechanical parts are the bits that don't break. Sure....an old defender diff might have blown up in the middle of a huge desert before, and you could probably fix it with a bit of old car. But the thing is, that won't happen on a modern car. You won't actually blow the diff up. It'll be some aspect of the GPF/Fuel injection/Self Diagnostics/Safety System that fails. All of these things are on a Jimny, and hence they're not simple to fix anymore. Not the bits that break at least....There are certain emissions equipment which ALL cars will have. But that doesn't mean the rest of the car needs to be equally complex with a zillion sensors for everything. It can still be made much more simple and rugged if they want too.
RacerMike said:
I think you're missing the point. The implication was that Land Rover should make a car that people can service themselves/repair using bits of tree/stick sand in the gearbox to fix it. The reality is that this is literally impossible with modern emissions and safety requirements. As I said, the mechanical parts are the bits that don't break. Sure....an old defender diff might have blown up in the middle of a huge desert before, and you could probably fix it with a bit of old car. But the thing is, that won't happen on a modern car. You won't actually blow the diff up. It'll be some aspect of the GPF/Fuel injection/Self Diagnostics/Safety System that fails. All of these things are on a Jimny, and hence they're not simple to fix anymore. Not the bits that break at least....
You can blow the diff up, mechanical parts still can and do fail on many cars. It isn't only emissions or electronic bits. You really are having tunnel vision if you don't think this is true.As for servicing car, f
k me 1000's of people do this every day on modern cars. Even complex ones. You don't need a main dealer, you just need the correct tools.However, you can still make a vehicle more complex than might be required. Electronic diffs instead of mechanical ones. Air suspension instead of coil springs. Terrain response systems rather than just a lever for low range. Convoluted drive systems and engines.
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