RE: New Porsche Cayman R Revealed
Discussion
havoc said:
Porscheplayer said:
HAB said:
RobM77 said:
I don't see why the things I mentioned for improvement on the Cayman couldn't be applied to the standard Cayman and S models. The GT3 is another step on, and really a fast road and track day car, I was thinking more of improvements for the standard model. I don't think steering feel, a responsive throttle or a better driving position are "hardcore" - they're just things I would expect from Porsche but which they don't deliver.
With respect, your repeated 'improvements' are purely opinion, and completely subjective. In fact, given from my own experiences, what I've heard first hand from Cayman owners, and the media in general; your views on the Caymans weaknesses are not one shared by very many. I've come to the conclusion they seem to be something that exist for a few on PH, but not in the real world! Don't get me wrong - every car has much room for improvement, but it's harder to make on overall well-rounded package, than something that excels in one or two areas. And overall, as an ownership prospect the Cayman is very, very good and arguably the best in it's class. They don't really do it for me, (mainly the looks, and a little too modern/refined) but I can appreciate why they're so highly regarded.
I also find this 'They won't develop it, because it would usurp the 911' attitude distinctly odd. Nearly every marque has a model hierarchy - why on earth would Porsche be any different?
However, given the history of the 'R' moniker in Porsches history, the Cayman R is possibly one of the most cynical marketing exercises they've ever done (and that's saying something)
Edited by HAB on Wednesday 17th November 17:21
- Road-testers won't moan about a car too much as manufacturers have been known to take offence. Plus most cars are heading the same way, so compared against the current competition there's not a lot better. Doesn't mean it's right though - compare steering, throttle-response and ride quality vs a 1990s supercar like a 993 or an NSX and you'll realise how bad modern cars really are!
- Owners won't always give you a 'warts and all' opinion as they won't want people to think they've bought the wrong car - particularly owners of 'image' cars (which Porsche most definitely are). Plus how many owners actually go out and test-drive half the competition before buying their car - many buy on looks, image and maybe road-tests!
I call it how I see it, doesn't matter if I own the car or not.
There are a few things wrong the Cayman, but the driving position isn't one of them, neither is the throttle response.
I think you’re looking through rose tintes glass with older cars, the NSX is turd compared to a modern Porsche GT3, its very tinny and slow by modern standards
havoc said:
Porscheplayer said:
HAB said:
RobM77 said:
I don't see why the things I mentioned for improvement on the Cayman couldn't be applied to the standard Cayman and S models. The GT3 is another step on, and really a fast road and track day car, I was thinking more of improvements for the standard model. I don't think steering feel, a responsive throttle or a better driving position are "hardcore" - they're just things I would expect from Porsche but which they don't deliver.
With respect, your repeated 'improvements' are purely opinion, and completely subjective. In fact, given from my own experiences, what I've heard first hand from Cayman owners, and the media in general; your views on the Caymans weaknesses are not one shared by very many. I've come to the conclusion they seem to be something that exist for a few on PH, but not in the real world! Don't get me wrong - every car has much room for improvement, but it's harder to make on overall well-rounded package, than something that excels in one or two areas. And overall, as an ownership prospect the Cayman is very, very good and arguably the best in it's class. They don't really do it for me, (mainly the looks, and a little too modern/refined) but I can appreciate why they're so highly regarded.
I also find this 'They won't develop it, because it would usurp the 911' attitude distinctly odd. Nearly every marque has a model hierarchy - why on earth would Porsche be any different?
However, given the history of the 'R' moniker in Porsches history, the Cayman R is possibly one of the most cynical marketing exercises they've ever done (and that's saying something)
Edited by HAB on Wednesday 17th November 17:21
- Road-testers won't moan about a car too much as manufacturers have been known to take offence. Plus most cars are heading the same way, so compared against the current competition there's not a lot better. Doesn't mean it's right though - compare steering, throttle-response and ride quality vs a 1990s supercar like a 993 or an NSX and you'll realise how bad modern cars really are!
- Owners won't always give you a 'warts and all' opinion as they won't want people to think they've bought the wrong car - particularly owners of 'image' cars (which Porsche most definitely are). Plus how many owners actually go out and test-drive half the competition before buying their car - many buy on looks, image and maybe road-tests!
What you say is very true. Often I've noticed a few negatives about a car on a road test that didn't appear in print, and then as soon as a new version of the car comes out, they very carefully say in the review that the first version had a few negatives, and describe exactly what I found in the first drive.
This happened to the 350Z, Elise and a few others that I can remember. Car reviewers presumably don't want to upset the manufacturers, who loan them cars and as such are their livelihood. That would be like asking me to be honest about the car I race in a public magazine - I wouldn't do it because I have a duty towards the team. Unlike that though, there is no motive for me to criticise or praise the Porsche Cayman or any other car that I have no connection to, I'm just being honest and open minded. I'm more than happy to criticise even the cars I personally own - I'm just not the sort of person to be blind to the truth with things (or be a "fanboy"). The only time I won't be honest is if talking about a friend's car, because that's not fair on them. Mind you, I wouldn't fabricate things, I'd just keep quiet!Interestingly, often the most open and honest views on cars aren't given by road test regulars - maybe because they're not in the industry and not subject to the constraints that Havoc mentions.
Some examples of the sort of reviews I trust:
Plato on the Elise: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaDmGGFTIJg
Prost on the Gallardo and 911 GT3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLXPr45dveY
Brundle on the Diablo GT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1hnQw9Jfzk
Brundle on the TVR 440R: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAl-w6IxY5Y&pla...
Edited by RobM77 on Wednesday 17th November 20:56
Wills2 said:
Mermaid said:
Carl_Docklands said:
Some pinch of salt to be taken here but there is a chance that the Cayman R will be quicker than a Gen2 911 C2S around some of the usual suspect tracks. Taken from laptimes:
Track 997 Carrera S (2008 facelift) Cayman S(facelift) PDK
Nordschleife 7:50.00 8:06.00
Altogether likely,and this will probably be a departure from previous Porsche policy for it will make money.Track 997 Carrera S (2008 facelift) Cayman S(facelift) PDK
Nordschleife 7:50.00 8:06.00
I posted the times as I was puzzled why peeps were labelling the Cayman slow when it's one hot potato.
Edited by Carl_Docklands on Wednesday 17th November 21:24
juansolo said:
Tallbut Buxomly said:
I read this in my autocar and burst out laughing when i got to the bit about it costing 5k more than the normal cayman s.
Porsche knows its's buyers so well. Less for more. This has to be a running German joke i know they do have an odd but very cool sense of humour.
...and it's also complete bPorsche knows its's buyers so well. Less for more. This has to be a running German joke i know they do have an odd but very cool sense of humour.
ks. Like with the Spyder, add the bits that the R has to the S and you'll find it' costs significantly more.Sure i agree well worth the 5k premium for a remap cost 2-300 quid and some new suspension.
Edited by Tallbut Buxomly on Wednesday 17th November 21:35
Porscheplayer said:
I think you’re looking through rose tintes glass with older cars, the NSX is turd compared to a modern Porsche GT3, its very tinny and slow by modern standards
Oh dear, you can't help but troll, can you?!? Quite clearly you've never driven one...But go on, I'll bit - in what way?
Composure? Nope. NSX is still highly rated.
Ride? Most definitely not - GT3s are bone-shakers and aren't really 'GT' cars in the classic sense. NSX has a magic-carpet ride for a supercar.
Sound? Very close.
Involvement? Again, close.
Feedback? Porsches excel at that, but there have been plenty of mutterings that the 997 isn't as good as past Porkers. I'm not convinced by the PAS on the NSX (Variable geo and variable assistance), but that's my one complaint.
Throttle response? The early NSXs (throttle-cable) will have that one hands-down. Not driven a GT3 to comment, but the later NSX has one of the best DBW throttles around.
Sense of occasion? Also close - depends on your perspective.
Looks? Quite the opposite.
The 997 GT3 is clearly quicker and grippier, sure, and will show an NSX the way around the 'ring. But not everyone views that as progress...and TBH you'd deserve to be locked up if you reached even the NSX's limits on most public roads.
As for 'tinny' -
- my 14y.o. car still feels hewn from granite despite being (at most) no heavier than a 997 GT3. And pace - my standard 3.0 keeps up with the E46 M3, which is hardly slow. Not bad for a 14y.o. car with only 270bhp, eh?So if you'd care to stop your offensive trolling and start adding something meaningful to the topic, please do. Otherwise do us all a favour and f
k off.(If you don't believe me, believe a friend who used to own a 996 C4, who completely unprompted said of my (95k mile so hardly box-fresh) NSX - "that's the best car I've ever driven - if I had £20k right now I'd be sorely tempted.")
clarki said:
Stunning!!
Being a megane R26.R owner this car, as you can probably imagine, is right up my street. Deals with the commute during the week and then head off for some trackday fun with your mates at the weekend - perfect.
Only problems; I havent got £52K and personnally I think the lack of aircon is not a good move.
However, if you do end up buying one, I will be very jealous!!
Being an ex-R26.R owner this is also right up my street. Infact ive been waiting for it for a while now.Being a megane R26.R owner this car, as you can probably imagine, is right up my street. Deals with the commute during the week and then head off for some trackday fun with your mates at the weekend - perfect.
Only problems; I havent got £52K and personnally I think the lack of aircon is not a good move.
However, if you do end up buying one, I will be very jealous!!
A few thoughts coming to mind....
I love the look of it and do think it sits a lot better with the lower ride height.
Dont like the steering wheel. Boxster spyder/GT3 wheel looks far better. I hope its an option.
Colour options are disapointing imo. White is the only colour I would pick of those options. PTS an option I assume?
On the porsche international con-fig site you can spec a fire extinguisher but have to spec sports seats. Not buckets. Seems odd.
Would have liked to have the option of having the buckets in the same material as in the GT3.
...but the biggest issue for me is the lack of the rumoured 'track pack' I want a half cage and the option to fit harnesses.
I guess I was asking too much.
Porscheplayer said:
havoc said:
Porscheplayer said:
HAB said:
RobM77 said:
I don't see why the things I mentioned for improvement on the Cayman couldn't be applied to the standard Cayman and S models. The GT3 is another step on, and really a fast road and track day car, I was thinking more of improvements for the standard model. I don't think steering feel, a responsive throttle or a better driving position are "hardcore" - they're just things I would expect from Porsche but which they don't deliver.
With respect, your repeated 'improvements' are purely opinion, and completely subjective. In fact, given from my own experiences, what I've heard first hand from Cayman owners, and the media in general; your views on the Caymans weaknesses are not one shared by very many. I've come to the conclusion they seem to be something that exist for a few on PH, but not in the real world! Don't get me wrong - every car has much room for improvement, but it's harder to make on overall well-rounded package, than something that excels in one or two areas. And overall, as an ownership prospect the Cayman is very, very good and arguably the best in it's class. They don't really do it for me, (mainly the looks, and a little too modern/refined) but I can appreciate why they're so highly regarded.
I also find this 'They won't develop it, because it would usurp the 911' attitude distinctly odd. Nearly every marque has a model hierarchy - why on earth would Porsche be any different?
However, given the history of the 'R' moniker in Porsches history, the Cayman R is possibly one of the most cynical marketing exercises they've ever done (and that's saying something)
Edited by HAB on Wednesday 17th November 17:21
- Road-testers won't moan about a car too much as manufacturers have been known to take offence. Plus most cars are heading the same way, so compared against the current competition there's not a lot better. Doesn't mean it's right though - compare steering, throttle-response and ride quality vs a 1990s supercar like a 993 or an NSX and you'll realise how bad modern cars really are!
- Owners won't always give you a 'warts and all' opinion as they won't want people to think they've bought the wrong car - particularly owners of 'image' cars (which Porsche most definitely are). Plus how many owners actually go out and test-drive half the competition before buying their car - many buy on looks, image and maybe road-tests!
I call it how I see it, doesn't matter if I own the car or not.
There are a few things wrong the Cayman, but the driving position isn't one of them, neither is the throttle response.
I think you’re looking through rose tintes glass with older cars, the NSX is turd compared to a modern Porsche GT3, its very tinny and slow by modern standards
Driving position This may be fine for you, but it's not for me. If I adjust the seat so my feet can operate the pedals comfortably, then I can't reach the steering wheel - the wheel needs another 3 inches reach adjustment on it. I'm not that unique - I expect Kambites from this thread would have the same issue - we both had to modify our Elises due to this problem.
throttle lag. There is one - end of story. To demo this, just approach a corner in a Cayman, brake before the corner, then transfer your foot from the brake to the accelerator as you turn in and set the balance. There will be a small time delay between your foot touching the throttle and the engine responding, causing a dead zone where the balance moves to oversteer. It's on all modern BMWs too.
Your comment on the NSX is a bit harsh. Yes, it wasn't that fast in its day and it certainly isn't now, but it is an utterly sublime drive.
Carl_Docklands said:
Wills2 said:
Mermaid said:
Carl_Docklands said:
Some pinch of salt to be taken here but there is a chance that the Cayman R will be quicker than a Gen2 911 C2S around some of the usual suspect tracks. Taken from laptimes:
Track 997 Carrera S (2008 facelift) Cayman S(facelift) PDK
Nordschleife 7:50.00 8:06.00
Altogether likely,and this will probably be a departure from previous Porsche policy for it will make money.Track 997 Carrera S (2008 facelift) Cayman S(facelift) PDK
Nordschleife 7:50.00 8:06.00
I posted the times as I was puzzled why peeps were labelling the Cayman slow when it's one hot potato.
Edited by Carl_Docklands on Wednesday 17th November 21:24
At 4.7 secs to 62 from the PDK model and a 10 secs 100mph dash? IMHO thats more than enough to see off my manual 911 C2S.
In the real world there wouldn't be enough room between these cars to put a sheet of paper.
havoc said:
[(If you don't believe me, believe a friend who used to own a 996 C4, who completely unprompted said of my (95k mile so hardly box-fresh) NSX - "that's the best car I've ever driven - if I had £20k right now I'd be sorely tempted.")
I own a 996 c4 and drove it back to back with an NSX when I bought it.I decidedly categorically that the NSX was quite special and by far and away a better and more exciting car than the C4. Unfortunately the car I looked at had issues and I couldn't find an appropriate one for sale.
Every single day of Porsche ownership I have yearned for an NSX, so much so that Ive never enjoyed the Porsche.
blindswelledrat said:
havoc said:
[(If you don't believe me, believe a friend who used to own a 996 C4, who completely unprompted said of my (95k mile so hardly box-fresh) NSX - "that's the best car I've ever driven - if I had £20k right now I'd be sorely tempted.")
I own a 996 c4 and drove it back to back with an NSX when I bought it.I decidedly categorically that the NSX was quite special and by far and away a better and more exciting car than the C4. Unfortunately the car I looked at had issues and I couldn't find an appropriate one for sale.
Every single day of Porsche ownership I have yearned for an NSX, so much so that Ive never enjoyed the Porsche.
RobM77 said:
blindswelledrat said:
havoc said:
[(If you don't believe me, believe a friend who used to own a 996 C4, who completely unprompted said of my (95k mile so hardly box-fresh) NSX - "that's the best car I've ever driven - if I had £20k right now I'd be sorely tempted.")
I own a 996 c4 and drove it back to back with an NSX when I bought it.I decidedly categorically that the NSX was quite special and by far and away a better and more exciting car than the C4. Unfortunately the car I looked at had issues and I couldn't find an appropriate one for sale.
Every single day of Porsche ownership I have yearned for an NSX, so much so that Ive never enjoyed the Porsche.
Tallbut Buxomly said:
juansolo said:
Tallbut Buxomly said:
I read this in my autocar and burst out laughing when i got to the bit about it costing 5k more than the normal cayman s.
Porsche knows its's buyers so well. Less for more. This has to be a running German joke i know they do have an odd but very cool sense of humour.
...and it's also complete bPorsche knows its's buyers so well. Less for more. This has to be a running German joke i know they do have an odd but very cool sense of humour.
ks. Like with the Spyder, add the bits that the R has to the S and you'll find it' costs significantly more.Sure i agree well worth the 5k premium for a remap cost 2-300 quid and some new suspension.
Edited by Tallbut Buxomly on Wednesday 17th November 21:35
Edit, infact I'm bored enough to do this, one sec...
£53,584 Though I'm sure I missed some bits:
Cayman S £ 45,048.00
Country Packages
Design Sports Package P45 £ 3,471.00
Exterior Colour
Black A1 £ 0.00
Interior Colour
Black Sport Seats leather AP £ 985.00
Exterior
Top tinted windscreen 567 £ 67.00
Transmission / Chassis
Limited slip rear differential lock 220 £ 753.00
Manual Transmission R01 £ 0.00
Wheels
19 inch Boxster Spyder Wheel 445 £ 0.00
Interior
Seat belts in Guards Red XSX £ 162.00
Rear section of centre console in exterior colour XME £ 333.00
Sports bucket seats P03 £ 1,981.00
Others
3rd Year Porsche Assistance A01 £ 169.00
3rd Year Warranty WO2 £ 615.00
Total Price* £ 53,584.00
Which is a saving of £1850 or so, plus you get an extra 10hp, nice suspension and save about 40kg in weight (realistically). So yes, I do think. Remember automatic climate control is an extra on an S too... Christ even the rear wiper isn't standard.
Edited by juansolo on Wednesday 17th November 23:23
Look at the prices of used Spyders now. That drop will probably be similar for the R too.
As for real world driving I tested my 303hp RS60 against a supposedly lighter 320hp Spyder on several runs and there was almost nothing in it. Dare I say the same could be said for the R vs a 2 year old Cayman S...
7 years ago BMW stunned the world with 360hp from a 3.2 in the M3 CSL - a cult road and track god to this day SEVEN years later Porsche could have done the same. They didn't.
PHers aren't stupid. Tinkering sucks.
As for real world driving I tested my 303hp RS60 against a supposedly lighter 320hp Spyder on several runs and there was almost nothing in it. Dare I say the same could be said for the R vs a 2 year old Cayman S...
7 years ago BMW stunned the world with 360hp from a 3.2 in the M3 CSL - a cult road and track god to this day SEVEN years later Porsche could have done the same. They didn't.
PHers aren't stupid. Tinkering sucks.
SFO said:
steveq135 said:
How do Lotus manage to make a car with an aluminium monocoque and plastic body heavier than a conventionally built car of comparative dimensions ??
the Toyota engine is heavy .. more so with all the additional stuff required for a superchargerGassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff