Do people *really* want drivers' cars?
Discussion
900T-R said:
Noger said:
Evo Top 10 Drivers Cars
1 Pagani Zonda F
2 Lotus 340R
3 Porsche 996 GT3
4 Caterham Superlight R300
5 Renaultsport Megane R26.R
6 Lotus Elan
7= Renaultsport Clio Trophy, 7= Ferrari F50
9 Mazda MX-5
10 Mitsubishi Evo VI Makinen Ed.
True, but the Clio was one of the cars people were comparing to... and it shows that indepth dynamics knowledge and set up skills can offset not just the inherent compromise of a car's FWD hatchbackness, but also its Renaultness. ;o)1 Pagani Zonda F
2 Lotus 340R
3 Porsche 996 GT3
4 Caterham Superlight R300
5 Renaultsport Megane R26.R
6 Lotus Elan
7= Renaultsport Clio Trophy, 7= Ferrari F50
9 Mazda MX-5
10 Mitsubishi Evo VI Makinen Ed.
Or lets put it to the test. In a poll, you are going to be given a car, you can't sell it, you won't have to worry about maintaining it, all you've have to do is drive it or look at it.
-Clio
-Ferrari F50
Addressing the OP (I admit I haven't read the whole thread), I imagine most people - like me - want the best driver's car that also fits within certain parameters. Sadly these parameters often exclude what I imagine the OP visualises as proper drivers' cars.
In my case for example I need a decent open-topped boot as I often transport my dog. This alone kills the GT86/BRZ (which I was watching) as it has an enclosed boot, as well as most other proper sports cars. So I spend my time trying to persuade Mrstheboy down that route
On the subject of bhp (I was one of the posters who compared the GT86/BRZ to equivalently priced hot hatches), it's very easy to say it's unimportant until you have to take a step down yourself. Every main car I have bought has been quicker than the last, and I don't know how I'd enjoy a big step backwards. Maybe I'd be fine, I don't know.
In fact I'd be interested to hear from posters that have traded grunt for handling and been content.
I am determined my next car will be RWD, but it's surprisingly hard to buy a smallish RWD car with lots of power and a dog-friendly boot.
In my case for example I need a decent open-topped boot as I often transport my dog. This alone kills the GT86/BRZ (which I was watching) as it has an enclosed boot, as well as most other proper sports cars. So I spend my time trying to persuade Mrstheboy down that route
On the subject of bhp (I was one of the posters who compared the GT86/BRZ to equivalently priced hot hatches), it's very easy to say it's unimportant until you have to take a step down yourself. Every main car I have bought has been quicker than the last, and I don't know how I'd enjoy a big step backwards. Maybe I'd be fine, I don't know.
In fact I'd be interested to hear from posters that have traded grunt for handling and been content.
I am determined my next car will be RWD, but it's surprisingly hard to buy a smallish RWD car with lots of power and a dog-friendly boot.
Johnnytheboy said:
I am determined my next car will be RWD, but it's surprisingly hard to buy a smallish RWD car with lots of power and a dog-friendly boot.
And people wonder why a manufacture struggle to make a mass production car that suits the demands of a small number of petrol heads and those who want a car that gets them plus maybe a friend or two to a destination. This is why it is so hard for a mainstream manufacture to justify building a car that suits the needs of a few thousand people yet can be designed from scratch, built and sold for the £20k that people believe is a sensible amount to spend on a decent car.
aka_kerrly said:
Johnnytheboy said:
I am determined my next car will be RWD, but it's surprisingly hard to buy a smallish RWD car with lots of power and a dog-friendly boot.
And people wonder why a manufacture struggle to make a mass production car that suits the demands of a small number of petrol heads and those who want a car that gets them plus maybe a friend or two to a destination. This is why it is so hard for a mainstream manufacture to justify building a car that suits the needs of a few thousand people yet can be designed from scratch, built and sold for the £20k that people believe is a sensible amount to spend on a decent car.
Powerful estates are an established German subspecies, but they tend to be massive.
300bhp/ton said:
900T-R said:
Noger said:
Evo Top 10 Drivers Cars
1 Pagani Zonda F
2 Lotus 340R
3 Porsche 996 GT3
4 Caterham Superlight R300
5 Renaultsport Megane R26.R
6 Lotus Elan
7= Renaultsport Clio Trophy, 7= Ferrari F50
9 Mazda MX-5
10 Mitsubishi Evo VI Makinen Ed.
True, but the Clio was one of the cars people were comparing to... and it shows that indepth dynamics knowledge and set up skills can offset not just the inherent compromise of a car's FWD hatchbackness, but also its Renaultness. ;o)1 Pagani Zonda F
2 Lotus 340R
3 Porsche 996 GT3
4 Caterham Superlight R300
5 Renaultsport Megane R26.R
6 Lotus Elan
7= Renaultsport Clio Trophy, 7= Ferrari F50
9 Mazda MX-5
10 Mitsubishi Evo VI Makinen Ed.
Or lets put it to the test. In a poll, you are going to be given a car, you can't sell it, you won't have to worry about maintaining it, all you've have to do is drive it or look at it.
-Clio
-Ferrari F50
The whole point of the test was to find the most fun cars ever made. Not the best fun for money ratio. Otherwise the Zonda wouldn't have won.
^ To an extent id actually rather manufactures do less varieties of the same cars. I would rather that instead of having 10 trim levels and 6 engines for a focus hatchback which creates thousands of possible combinations of specification which adds to costs id be happier if there was a eg the 1.6 = cheap 2.0 na= mid range + RS top of the range.
Then I am fairly* certain that not only could the cars be made/sold cheaper it could free up production capacity to justify a separate production line for something a little more special.
Then I am fairly* certain that not only could the cars be made/sold cheaper it could free up production capacity to justify a separate production line for something a little more special.
Johnnytheboy said:
On the subject of bhp (I was one of the posters who compared the GT86/BRZ to equivalently priced hot hatches), it's very easy to say it's unimportant until you have to take a step down yourself. Every main car I have bought has been quicker than the last, and I don't know how I'd enjoy a big step backwards. Maybe I'd be fine, I don't know.
In fact I'd be interested to hear from posters that have traded grunt for handling and been content.
Not quite the same thing, but I had a Civic Type-R when my wife got an MX-5 and I quickly realised that despite having a very inferior engine and much less acceleration and grip, the little Mazda was more fun to drive. That was something of an epiphany. I replaced the Civic with an RX-8 (a side step in performance) and we haven't had a front driver in the household since. I do know what you mean about the reluctance to trade to a slower car, but if I'd had to in order to get out of fwdland, I would have doneIn fact I'd be interested to hear from posters that have traded grunt for handling and been content.
300bhp/ton said:
The thing is, in the "mass" market there are many who want, or rather 'think' they are petrol heads, but then go out and buy a Golf 
I think the FT-86 sounds fantastic in ethos and concept. Although I think it's a shame they've gone for such a middle ground in the appearance department. But maybe it'll look better in the flesh??
And pricing, I think 200hp is fine, but it needs to be priced accordingly. For similar powered low'ish weight thrills a Clio 200 does it a heck of a lot cheaper.
On the flip side, I'm not sure how 200hp will be respected in the USA. We might as a National care little for drag racing and 1/4 mile times, but it's big business out there. If they want to compete with the likes of the Mustang & Camaro V6, Genesis Coupe (V6 or 2.0T) or 370z sector, then they'll need to up the anti and offer a more powerful variant.
This car will probably be purchased early in somebody's motoring career so it will come down to a combination of lease rate, insurance cost and fun to drive as a third place.I think the FT-86 sounds fantastic in ethos and concept. Although I think it's a shame they've gone for such a middle ground in the appearance department. But maybe it'll look better in the flesh??
And pricing, I think 200hp is fine, but it needs to be priced accordingly. For similar powered low'ish weight thrills a Clio 200 does it a heck of a lot cheaper.
On the flip side, I'm not sure how 200hp will be respected in the USA. We might as a National care little for drag racing and 1/4 mile times, but it's big business out there. If they want to compete with the likes of the Mustang & Camaro V6, Genesis Coupe (V6 or 2.0T) or 370z sector, then they'll need to up the anti and offer a more powerful variant.
aka_kerrly said:
DJRC said:
Then you dont buy a drivers car, you buy a car that carries 4 people in comfort...because that is what passengers want...to be conveyed in comfort. Not slung about.
"but what about if I want to take friends?" I hear you cry! f
k em. You buy 2 seat cars precisely so you cant have your driving enjoyment ruined by 3 lumps of useless cement in the car with you. No drive was ever "enhanced" by having anybody else in a car with you.
Passengers = compromise. I prefer my cars designed around me, for me and that views just 1 passenger seat as something thats just about tolerated.
You make it sound like you have no friends. "but what about if I want to take friends?" I hear you cry! f
k em. You buy 2 seat cars precisely so you cant have your driving enjoyment ruined by 3 lumps of useless cement in the car with you. No drive was ever "enhanced" by having anybody else in a car with you.Passengers = compromise. I prefer my cars designed around me, for me and that views just 1 passenger seat as something thats just about tolerated.
Noger said:
The Zonda only won because the Caterham is too noisy and gets you wet. So it wasn't entirely based on "fun".
But according to PH rules the Caterham should be the winner because it isn't compromised has no roof, is noisy it is the real drivers car. If this thread is anything to go by the Zonda should never have won because it has 2 comfortable seats, electric windows, central locking, stereo, multi-loading CD changer, satellite navigation and air conditioning and compartments for 2 suitcases.I think the GT85 looks great and is a superb idea. The Scoob looks even better. I for one will be very interested.
Everyone gets so bogged down in bhp and whether the car has 25" alloys and a NASA control system that they forget about the car itself.
BMW owners are very guilty - many would much rather get (well they tell others that) an M Sported 320i with ALL the toys than a far superior (to drive) 330i/335i SE with a sparse spec. It's all about the look, the pointless toys and the wheel size.
Everyone gets so bogged down in bhp and whether the car has 25" alloys and a NASA control system that they forget about the car itself.
BMW owners are very guilty - many would much rather get (well they tell others that) an M Sported 320i with ALL the toys than a far superior (to drive) 330i/335i SE with a sparse spec. It's all about the look, the pointless toys and the wheel size.
aka_kerrly said:
Noger said:
The Zonda only won because the Caterham is too noisy and gets you wet. So it wasn't entirely based on "fun".
But according to PH rules the Caterham should be the winner because it isn't compromised has no roof, is noisy it is the real drivers car. If this thread is anything to go by the Zonda should never have won because it has 2 comfortable seats, electric windows, central locking, stereo, multi-loading CD changer, satellite navigation and air conditioning and compartments for 2 suitcases.Everything is a compromise, even in that list. Cost, comfort, load space etc. I compromise on comfort for raw thrill, others may not, others may indeed eschew the extra two wheels for even more thrills, but that is a step too far for me.
Sadly, even on PH, those of us think getting up early on a Sunday morning to go for a blat about (in the right gear, at the top of the rev range, all the time) with only Bikers for company seem to be in a minority
DJRC said:
aka_kerrly said:
DJRC said:
Then you dont buy a drivers car, you buy a car that carries 4 people in comfort...because that is what passengers want...to be conveyed in comfort. Not slung about.
"but what about if I want to take friends?" I hear you cry! fk em. You buy 2 seat cars precisely so you cant have your driving enjoyment ruined by 3 lumps of useless cement in the car with you. No drive was ever "enhanced" by having anybody else in a car with you.
Passengers = compromise. I prefer my cars designed around me, for me and that views just 1 passenger seat as something thats just about tolerated.
You make it sound like you have no friends. "but what about if I want to take friends?" I hear you cry! f
k em. You buy 2 seat cars precisely so you cant have your driving enjoyment ruined by 3 lumps of useless cement in the car with you. No drive was ever "enhanced" by having anybody else in a car with you.Passengers = compromise. I prefer my cars designed around me, for me and that views just 1 passenger seat as something thats just about tolerated.
ds 
Interesting thread and I do agree with the OP. It's the same as people who praise local produce, organic and ethical foods, local retail businesses etc. yet actually do all their shopping in the centre isle of tescos.
Everyone says they want a driver focussed car but the reality is they base their buying decisions on the tax band, value retention and the perceived quality of dashboard materials. Basically, beneath the skin of most so called petrol heads is a boring tightarse!
Just to pick up on one thing 300bhp said which vexed me slightly:
Who is going to spend a significant amount of money modifying a nearly new car, taking the risks that come with voiding the warranty and the inevitable financial hit that every enthusiast nows you take when spending money on modifications, only to sell the car within the first year or less? The reason there are no cars as described above in the classifieds is because people who modify nearly new cars do it because they want to keep them, drive them and enjoy them for at least a year or two! Cars for sale are not an accurate representation of cars that exist.
Everyone says they want a driver focussed car but the reality is they base their buying decisions on the tax band, value retention and the perceived quality of dashboard materials. Basically, beneath the skin of most so called petrol heads is a boring tightarse!
Just to pick up on one thing 300bhp said which vexed me slightly:
300bhp/ton said:
please find me from the classifieds, autocar, ebay, where ever these examples:
2 month or newer modified Cayman, either engine change or turbo/supercharger conversion
6 month or under 370z twin turbo
1 month old 500hp Evo
1 year old 135i running different turbos and 450hp+
Or even anything remotely similar, i.e. new or very new and in warranty and heavily modified and in a similar price bracket/market segment to the FT 86..... go on off you go.
That's a ridiculous argument.2 month or newer modified Cayman, either engine change or turbo/supercharger conversion
6 month or under 370z twin turbo
1 month old 500hp Evo
1 year old 135i running different turbos and 450hp+
Or even anything remotely similar, i.e. new or very new and in warranty and heavily modified and in a similar price bracket/market segment to the FT 86..... go on off you go.
Who is going to spend a significant amount of money modifying a nearly new car, taking the risks that come with voiding the warranty and the inevitable financial hit that every enthusiast nows you take when spending money on modifications, only to sell the car within the first year or less? The reason there are no cars as described above in the classifieds is because people who modify nearly new cars do it because they want to keep them, drive them and enjoy them for at least a year or two! Cars for sale are not an accurate representation of cars that exist.
Edited by busta on Thursday 1st December 21:25
DJRC said:
aka_kerrly said:
However, I've found that some of my most memorable driving experiences have involved having good company on board. In some situations especially work there are a lot of trips where I go via the motorway to get there with minimal hassle where as a lot of trips with the right company on board have led to some fantastic detours via back roads in a driver + Co driver esque navigation style. A few years back me and my brother made a trip from Gloucester to Wakefield via the Peak District in at the time my freshly rebuilt mk2 golf. It may have taken some 2 hours longer than going on the motorway but it was well worth it and I doubt I'd have done it alone. This was soon followed by a trip across Wales over the Brecon beacons would not have been the same alone (or without the GTI)
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