Driver "aids" Why so many? Can no-one drive anymore?

[DeadMeat_UK]

Twincam16 said:

175gt said:

Twincam16 said:

I had a hired Astra with an electronic handbrake with no kind of hill-hold function on it at all. Absolutely terrifying when driving up a very steep ramp onto the Le Mans ferry this year. Stop-start traffic, a classic Morgan worth a fair wedge inches behind my rear bumper, and the only real way of moving forward was to balance the clutch on the bite-point and pray to God it was in the right place before pressing the button. At least with a lever if you feel it slipping back even slightly you can pull it again to stop it. With the button it's 'on' or 'off', and if it's off and you're not ready with the clutch, you're going to cause a big accident.

That sounds like a very poor implementation, if that's how it actually works?

In mine (Laguna), you manually apply the handbrake (and can manually release) but it automatically releases only when you're pressing the accelerator slightly and have let the clutch out sufficiently to have the necessary torque to set off.

I recall reading a magazine review that slated the system in my car but just highlighted how an experienced motoring journalist had failed to grasp how it worked (he didn't realise it released automatically and thought that the button had to be pressed each time.

No, it really was that bad. When I parked it at the Le Mans campsite I actually forgot to apply it and realised the car could be pushed along, as there was no automatic application even with the engine off.

No matter how good they are I just cannot see how they can be considered 'better' than a straightforward mechanical system.

One in my (auto) Jag works perfectly. Hold/Hill start is perfect in traffic as you are not sitting there with your foot on the brake, or having to put in Neutral.
As soon as you drive off it releases. Took me an hour or two to get used to used to it, now would really miss it and find a bit ratchety lever a bit of a pain.

Downside is if I drive anyone elses car I try to drive off with the handbrake on

[excel monkey]

Twincam16 said:

I had a hired Astra with an electronic handbrake with no kind of hill-hold function on it at all. Absolutely terrifying when driving up a very steep ramp onto the Le Mans ferry this year.

TC, you've now mentioned three separate examples where you have struggled to get on with modern cars. A Merc SL confused you with its satnav. You struggled to operate the automatic wipers on a VW. And now a humble Astra has "terrified" you with its electronic handbrake.

Why do you keep torturing yourself with these modern cars? Wouldn't it be easier just stick to mid-90s or earlier, and be happy?

Genuine question. Not having a go at you.

Edited by excel monkey on Monday 1st October 10:56

[walsh]

I drove an Astravan for a couple of years, which had non-switchoffable Tc. It irritated me occasionally, Mainly when trying to pull out of a wet junction. A little bit of slip, and it would cut all power, chucking you toward the windscreen. I lamented the lack of button to turn it off.

One day, I hit some black ice at about 30 Mph, and it kicked 30/40 degrees out of line like I had driven into by truck. I am sure I will get the standard " I would have caught it anyway, Being a driving god" type comments, which may well be the case, but at the end of the day I probably wouldn't have. Tc flashed and grabbed various wheels independently, and with a little steering input, the car was straight again. Up until then, that system was just annoying..

In the new car (which has very good, predictive asr/tc), it only comes off when I want it to slide about, And therefore I am expecting it too. Rest of the time, I leave it on, as a redundant (hopefully) safety net. I don't see anything wrong with this, it's not blinking away all the time because I have no throttle control, But if something happens, I would like to concentrate on fixing the situation (IE, not crashing), and anything that helps with that is a good thing.

Would you turn ABS off on a dry road, If there was a button to do so?

[Twincam16]

excel monkey said:

Twincam16 said:

I had a hired Astra with an electronic handbrake with no kind of hill-hold function on it at all. Absolutely terrifying when driving up a very steep ramp onto the Le Mans ferry this year.

TC, you've now mentioned three separate examples where you have struggled to get on with modern cars. A Merc SL confused you with its satnav. You struggled to operate the automatic wipers on a VW. And now a humble Astra has "terrified" you with its electronic handbrake.

Why do you keep torturing yourself with these modern cars? Wouldn't it be easier just stick to mid-90s or earlier, and be happy?

Genuine question. Not having a go at you.

Edited by excel monkey on Monday 1st October 10:56

Hire fleets don't tend to have a special 'classic' section just for me

[175gt]

Twincam16 said:

175gt said:

Twincam16 said:

I had a hired Astra with an electronic handbrake with no kind of hill-hold function on it at all. Absolutely terrifying when driving up a very steep ramp onto the Le Mans ferry this year. Stop-start traffic, a classic Morgan worth a fair wedge inches behind my rear bumper, and the only real way of moving forward was to balance the clutch on the bite-point and pray to God it was in the right place before pressing the button. At least with a lever if you feel it slipping back even slightly you can pull it again to stop it. With the button it's 'on' or 'off', and if it's off and you're not ready with the clutch, you're going to cause a big accident.

That sounds like a very poor implementation, if that's how it actually works?

In mine (Laguna), you manually apply the handbrake (and can manually release) but it automatically releases only when you're pressing the accelerator slightly and have let the clutch out sufficiently to have the necessary torque to set off.

I recall reading a magazine review that slated the system in my car but just highlighted how an experienced motoring journalist had failed to grasp how it worked (he didn't realise it released automatically and thought that the button had to be pressed each time.

No, it really was that bad. When I parked it at the Le Mans campsite I actually forgot to apply it and realised the car could be pushed along, as there was no automatic application even with the engine off.

No matter how good they are I just cannot see how they can be considered 'better' than a straightforward mechanical system.

That does like exceptionally poor design and an example of when there are no benefits to an electronic system! In fact, I remember my brother complaining about it in a hired Insignia a couple of months ago; I had kind of dismissed him then as I'd thought he must have misunderstood the system. Looks like I'll be eating some humble pie.

I like the way mine works and it's very convenient but I don't think I'd necessarily have one by choice. Winter driving would be an example of when it could prove very useful to have an additional, adjustable, manual way of exerting influence on a vehicle's behaviour.

[AC43]

AC43 said:

mcford said:

A lot of you on here think that you're good drivers, but when did you last operate a control on a car where a computer wasn't involved?

March 2003.

Actually realised that's not true. In the heavy snow of early 2011 I had to get from London to Oxfordshire and from there to Norfolk. The heavily computer-aided Merc couldn't actually pull away from he kerb but the Missus's 10 year old Clio was fine. TC=right foot. Job done.

[JimmyTheHand]

Twincam16 said:

Funnily enough, my Alfa 155 would deactivate its ABS when temperatures dropped below zero.

Was that by design or as my experience, having had a few Italian cars, just by the normal state of the electrical systems

[carinaman]

I'm not a fan of electric windows as I've had two experiences where they've needed repairing, but it's taken this thread for me to realise that I do regularly use them when emerging from a junction that has very limited visibility so I can listen for approaching traffic.

[Noesph]

To be honest I don't really have much of an opinion on drivers aids, due to never owning a car with them (not even electric windows, abs or power steering). But saying that on a hot summers day I do wish I had a/c.

[Howard-]

Twincam16 said:

I had a hired Astra with an electronic handbrake with no kind of hill-hold function on it at all. Absolutely terrifying when driving up a very steep ramp onto the Le Mans ferry this year. Stop-start traffic, a classic Morgan worth a fair wedge inches behind my rear bumper, and the only real way of moving forward was to balance the clutch on the bite-point and pray to God it was in the right place before pressing the button. At least with a lever if you feel it slipping back even slightly you can pull it again to stop it. With the button it's 'on' or 'off', and if it's off and you're not ready with the clutch, you're going to cause a big accident.

I've had a couple of Vauxhall hire cars now with electronic handbrakes (fingerbrakes? ) and I found that if you just drive off, it soon deactivates itself. I'm not sure whether or not you're supposed to do that, and once or twice I'd hear a bit of a graunching noise, but it's a Vauxhall so design and ergonomics was never their forte and it's tricky to work out


Oh and to the OP:

S2Mike said:

Can no-one drive anymore?

No.

HTH.



Driver aids to me are things like ABS, traction control, electronic brake-force distribution, and so forth. I don't see a reason for modern cars not to have these things. However, I agree that things such automatic parallel parking are a step too far.

Everything else mentioned in this thread (electric windows/mirrors/seats/whatever, automatic this-that-and-t'other) are comfort features and again I want as many of these as possible in my day-to-day car. If they break, I will fix them. Things break on cars, it's a fact of life. Whether it's your distributor, your water pump or your electric window regulator makes no difference

Edited by Howard- on Tuesday 2nd October 09:01

[Twincam16]

JimmyTheHand said:

Twincam16 said:

Funnily enough, my Alfa 155 would deactivate its ABS when temperatures dropped below zero.

Was that by design or as my experience, having had a few Italian cars, just by the normal state of the electrical systems

Well, it wasn't in the manual, but when it dropped below zero, the ABS warning light would come on the dashboard and it wouldn't work - but as soon as the snow thawed, it was back working again.

According to the manual though, the light meant 'limited ABS effectivity' rather than 'ABS failed', but it could just be an Italian euphemism.

[DeadMeat_UK]

AC43 said:

AC43 said:

mcford said:

A lot of you on here think that you're good drivers, but when did you last operate a control on a car where a computer wasn't involved?

March 2003.

Actually realised that's not true. In the heavy snow of early 2011 I had to get from London to Oxfordshire and from there to Norfolk. The heavily computer-aided Merc couldn't actually pull away from he kerb but the Missus's 10 year old Clio was fine. TC=right foot. Job done.

I assume a 993 doesn't count due to ABS (but only used it once in 4 years so maybe it does count)?
If that's a no, then it might be my Elise S1 about 10 years ago.

But why does it make me a bad driver if I no longer rely purely on my wits and judgement but am happy to have some additional help?
I'm sure I haven't lost any , but my life can now be saved should myself or someone else fk up.