Discussion
DoubleD said:
Kawasicki said:
Fastdruid said:
At *one* point in the corner.
Equally yours which is designed to trawl the motorway on the way to make the next sale is just as compromised. Obviously ideal for the rep up and down the motorway all day but wasn't despite the marketing built only with handing in mind.
Balance is about the geometry, the suspension and the tyres. Weight distribution plays a part but it is not the be all and end all that you make it out to be.
that is the beauty of rwd, it is not just at one point in the corner, under power the car can de driven in a balanced manner the whole way out of the corner. fwd cars on the other hand just tend to understeer more under power. Equally yours which is designed to trawl the motorway on the way to make the next sale is just as compromised. Obviously ideal for the rep up and down the motorway all day but wasn't despite the marketing built only with handing in mind.
Balance is about the geometry, the suspension and the tyres. Weight distribution plays a part but it is not the be all and end all that you make it out to be.
Kawasicki said:
DoubleD said:
I've driven 1 and 3 series that both under steered more than a Megane when under power.
when you get on the power in a rwd car it understeers lessdo the same with a fwd it understeers more
the amount of understeer can be tuned, but the physics itself is constant
RobM77 said:
DoubleD said:
Kawasicki said:
Fastdruid said:
At *one* point in the corner.
Equally yours which is designed to trawl the motorway on the way to make the next sale is just as compromised. Obviously ideal for the rep up and down the motorway all day but wasn't despite the marketing built only with handing in mind.
Balance is about the geometry, the suspension and the tyres. Weight distribution plays a part but it is not the be all and end all that you make it out to be.
that is the beauty of rwd, it is not just at one point in the corner, under power the car can de driven in a balanced manner the whole way out of the corner. fwd cars on the other hand just tend to understeer more under power. Equally yours which is designed to trawl the motorway on the way to make the next sale is just as compromised. Obviously ideal for the rep up and down the motorway all day but wasn't despite the marketing built only with handing in mind.
Balance is about the geometry, the suspension and the tyres. Weight distribution plays a part but it is not the be all and end all that you make it out to be.
DoubleD said:
Kawasicki said:
DoubleD said:
I've driven 1 and 3 series that both under steered more than a Megane when under power.
when you get on the power in a rwd car it understeers lessdo the same with a fwd it understeers more
the amount of understeer can be tuned, but the physics itself is constant
Imagine you have two renault meganes, one is fwd and one is rwd. The fwd one will tend to understeer under acceleration, the rwd one will tend to become more neutral/balanced under acceleration. I prefer balance.
Kawasicki said:
DoubleD said:
Kawasicki said:
DoubleD said:
I've driven 1 and 3 series that both under steered more than a Megane when under power.
when you get on the power in a rwd car it understeers lessdo the same with a fwd it understeers more
the amount of understeer can be tuned, but the physics itself is constant
Imagine you have two renault meganes, one is fwd and one is rwd. The fwd one will tend to understeer under acceleration, the rwd one will tend to become more neutral/balanced under acceleration. I prefer balance.
DoubleD said:
Have you driven one? Be honest
I've driven lots of clios/meganes/focus RS/golf Gti, both road and race cars.why would i lie? it is physics. If you are happy with a fwd megane, good for you, and i really mean that.
My idea of fun might be very different to yours. I'm not wrong, you're not wrong either.
I know loads of professional drivers that laugh themselves silly driving with huge lift off oversteer at high speeds. I get my kicks from small steering angles at high cornering forces...on the way out of a corner. I like walking that tightrope. I drive like that as much as I can. Opposite lock bores me a bit...ok..that is a lie!
DoubleD said:
I've driven 1 and 3 series that both under steered more than a Megane when under power.
Are you comparing like with like?Compare a 120d with a megane 2.0d, compare a 140i with a Megane 260 (or what ever the fast one is called this week)
You can't compare a "hot" megane, set up for good track manners, with say a 120d, set up for carpet salesmen to do 600 miles per day on the M1........
The 120 has a very good static handline balance, due to it's 50:50 mass distribution, the megane a compromised static balance that needs an incredibly stiff lateral rear suspension setup to take load off the front tyres. As a result, the megane is a static oversteerer and a dynamic understeering (no matter how clever it's diff is) and the BMW a static understeering and a dynamic oversteerer. Of course, either car can be easily driven in a manner to completely overload the front tyres and create significant understeer.
Ahbefive said:
benjijames28 said:
My ideal car is probably a Audi a4 avant 3 litre diesel Quattro s line. That would fit my needs perfectly.
That is a sad state of affairs.I would take a BMW 340i Touring xDrive. Wouldn't care about the mpg, I'm used to 20mpg, or if it's M Sport or not.
Max_Torque said:
DoubleD said:
I've driven 1 and 3 series that both under steered more than a Megane when under power.
Are you comparing like with like?Compare a 120d with a megane 2.0d, compare a 140i with a Megane 260 (or what ever the fast one is called this week)
You can't compare a "hot" megane, set up for good track manners, with say a 120d, set up for carpet salesmen to do 600 miles per day on the M1........
The 120 has a very good static handline balance, due to it's 50:50 mass distribution, the megane a compromised static balance that needs an incredibly stiff lateral rear suspension setup to take load off the front tyres. As a result, the megane is a static oversteerer and a dynamic understeering (no matter how clever it's diff is) and the BMW a static understeering and a dynamic oversteerer. Of course, either car can be easily driven in a manner to completely overload the front tyres and create significant understeer.
I agree with Mr Torque. I would add that either car can also be easily driven in a manner to completely overload the rear tyres and create significant oversteer. The Megane however being more fun in the process as less inert, lighter and quicker to react. Probably trickier too in the wet.
That's compared to a M135i with M4 LCAs.
That's compared to a M135i with M4 LCAs.
CABC said:
We should find out if people know the difference between "under power", "balanced throttle" and "barreling-in" (I'd call it trailing throttle but that makes it sound deliberate and considered).
Indeed - we should find out if people (apart from Max Torque;)) know the difference between traction and lat grip.I wish I was skilled enough to pedal a fast rwd car properly, but I'm not, so I run fwd
That said, it's running 450+ bhp and lots of chassis and drivetrain mods, so it would hold its own against some fairly handy rwd stuff
Ultimately though, I accept that a good rwd is going to be a better steer than a good fwd
That said, it's running 450+ bhp and lots of chassis and drivetrain mods, so it would hold its own against some fairly handy rwd stuff
Ultimately though, I accept that a good rwd is going to be a better steer than a good fwd
Nigel_O said:
I wish I was skilled enough to pedal a fast rwd car properly, but I'm not, so I run fwd
That said, it's running 450+ bhp and lots of chassis and drivetrain mods, so it would hold its own against some fairly handy rwd stuff
Ultimately though, I accept that a good rwd is going to be a better steer than a good fwd
Just for clarity, do you mean front or four WD? If front, I was just wondering how it is for torque steer?That said, it's running 450+ bhp and lots of chassis and drivetrain mods, so it would hold its own against some fairly handy rwd stuff
Ultimately though, I accept that a good rwd is going to be a better steer than a good fwd
It always used to be said that circa 200 brake was about the max that front wheel drive could realistically cope with. I imagine, with modern tyres and electronic diff etc, that number has risen, although I think VXR are/were known to suffer.
I'm a pretty mediocre driver but when the rear steps out it seems more intuitive to me, that one would ease off the throttle pedal and turn into the skid. I don't know if this is because this is just a natural and instinctive response, or was learnt? Accelerating to pull myself out of oversteer (whilst turning into the skid) feels counter intuitive by comparison.
That said, it is clear that driving a front wheel drive car quickly just means learning new skills, such as left foot braking and 'lift off' oversteer. It is also pretty clear many people enjoy driving this way. I do think it's always going to be a compromise asking the front tyres to cope with steering, braking and putting down power though.
Ultimately, can a front wheel drive car be as fast as a rear wheel drive, were you able to have the choice when building a race car from scratch? (I know that's not the question in the OP, but I am intrigued to hear what conclusions others may draw)
sparks_E39 said:
Day to day driving if I was to get into a car that was unfamiliar to me I probably wouldn't be able to tell if it was FWD or RWD unless I pressed on a bit. For a daily it doesn't matter. All the FWD Audi's I've driven have been absolutely fine.
i only press on, the only time i back off or cruise is when I think the risk of legal trouble is too high, or when I think I will worry or disturb other road users. That doesn't mean I drive illegally all the time, but my tyres and brakes do wear out quickly. My kids are used to being passengers with fairly high speeds and high braking/cornering forces.Cruising is something I only do on the Autobahn, listening to nice music, bouncing off the limiter in top gear, waiting for the engine to explode.
e21Mark said:
Nigel_O said:
I wish I was skilled enough to pedal a fast rwd car properly, but I'm not, so I run fwd
That said, it's running 450+ bhp and lots of chassis and drivetrain mods, so it would hold its own against some fairly handy rwd stuff
Ultimately though, I accept that a good rwd is going to be a better steer than a good fwd
Just for clarity, do you mean front or four WD? If front, I was just wondering how it is for torque steer?That said, it's running 450+ bhp and lots of chassis and drivetrain mods, so it would hold its own against some fairly handy rwd stuff
Ultimately though, I accept that a good rwd is going to be a better steer than a good fwd
RobM77 said:
Ahbefive said:
RobM77 said:
you'd have to be crackers to think the Fiesta handled better than a 1 series.
Surely not serious? A fiesta ST handles much better than a 1series. You'd have to be out of your mind to think the contrary, which it is apparent you are.
The Fiesta, even in base form, is a fantastic handling car. The fact that it's FWD doesn't really hinder the experience
There are many RWD cars out there that are pretty terrible while others are fantastic. The same goes with FWD.
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