RE: VW ID.R breaks outright Goodwood record

[PhantomPH]

I think the wording being used is key - the VW has 'broken' the record, but does not 'hold' the record.

I liken it to a land speed record - imagine doing 1,000mph in one direction, but failing to make the return/2nd run. You would have broken the record, but not officially hold it due to the rules.

In this instance they broke the record, but not 'officially' due to the rules. (Expect a rule change next year in order to get round that. )

[Mr-B]

Oilchange said:

Sounds to me like there is too much politics to allow a fair chance of challenging the record, if they don’t allow the fastest cars to be timed up the hill, what’s the point of having an overall record?
The VW ev thing went up fast but it sounds like they paid for the privilege and others are excluded for various safety and/or entry fee reasons.
Makes the record irrelevant.

Have to agree, it's just a bit hollow. I still see it as a record but it should always have the tag of "unofficial" before it because it was only a practice run, just for fun kind of thing.

Can't believe it was 20 years ago too for that record! Wasn't Nick's car also compromised with higher ride height due to the bumps? And not having pure slicks (notwithstanding slicks not being allowed in F1 at the time)? So the VW had the advantage of 20 years of tyre improvements and aero improvements and a better road surface so not exactly a level playing field anyway.

[Andy S15]

Felt a bit anticlimactic when the IDR was so much faster than the next fastest ICE powered cars in the group. Needs some more variety and similar specified competitors. To me, it feels very hollow for the open rulebook IDR to be the fastest against a group of regulated built-for-a-discipline racecars. I'd love for to see it up against the 919 Evo, I would find that genuinely exciting. And the argument of it not being safe for other F1's and such yet just fine for the IDR is a valid one. Anyway, it's called the Festival of Speed, not the festival of future motoring, it should encompass everything. It can be just as impressive that an old racecar is still damn fast by today's standards of machinery, but maybe I'm just taking it all too seriously...

I still thoroughly enjoyed the live stream though. But unfortunately it solidifies that just being fast is not always enough to be entertaining. I do highly respect the engineering and overall achievement mind.

[Sway]

It's worth remembering, to take another poster's point that perhaps we're taking this too seriously, that FoS is the WWE of Motorsports.

It's not "real". It is, however, bloody good fun.

[Fastdruid]

Andy S15 said:

Felt a bit anticlimactic when the IDR was so much faster than the next fastest ICE powered cars in the group.<snip>

I still thoroughly enjoyed the live stream though. But unfortunately it solidifies that just being fast is not always enough to be entertaining. I do highly respect the engineering and overall achievement mind.

The ID R was blistering quick but was clinical, there were far slower cars that were *much* more interesting to watch.

I was there on the Saturday and to be honest what impressed me most was how fast the Ferrari GTO 250 and Ford GT40 Prototypes were in comparison to far newer things. Obviously massively slow compared to the ID R and F1 stuff.

And just because we can't go without a photo here.

[Juno]

tr3a said:

How delightfully predictable.

EV's are just superior cars. The only things they don't do well is make brmm-brmm noises, burn chemicals inefficiently and poison us.

And where does this electric come from?

[cidered77]

Max_Torque said:

I'm coming to the conclusion that "EV hating" is finally a new outlet for the old bobble hatter Subaru fanboys to get their teeth into! For years they have been left out in the cold, with nothing to incessantly and irrationally argue pointlessly about, and now, these "hateful EVs" have come along to give them hope and meaning! I mean, back then, there was no car in the world as good as the Subaru they drove (or their Evo if they were the Mit-sue-wishy cousins of our scooby delinquents), you couldn't ever change their mind, they had made it up. No facts, evidence or any amount of arguing would ever change their mind, and it's now the same on all the EV threads, which go like this:


1) A EV does something (usually beating some old ICE vehicle)

2) People say "yeah great, well fast, but it sounds too boring"

3) A few people say "this is clearly the future"

4) Someone pops up to say that EVs will "never catch on" because they personally drive 4000 miles a day before breakfast

5) Someone suggests that EVs are more pollution than ICE "because batteries", extra points if they include the pic of the "Lithium mine" that is actually an open cast iron ore mine in south america

6) Someone mentions Hydrogen

7) Someone says "but i have a 15 year old car that cost £3.75 and does 400 miles on a tank, therefore all EVs are pointless

8) Someone does about 3 seconds of googling, links to some item or report that they think re-enforces their point, but actually, they don't even read or understand the info they have posted that actually shows exactly the opposite of what they though it did.

9) Someone suggests the "National grid can't keep up"

10) Someone posts a picture of an EV on fire to make the point they catch alight

11) The entire thread descends into a pointless argument with zero factual content based entirely on the predudices and personal politics of the people posting


So that, is my "11 point scale" of EV thread progression!

Ah bring back the old "my scooby is faster than your xyz" threads eh...... #bobblehatting

How all very depressingly true. Do some of you people think you are being original saying they are milk floats or kitchen appliances? It's all so depressingly true to form - people playing out their roles to the letter: middle aged man who don't like change trying to cling to the past .

- an electric motor is 90% efficient. ICEs are what - 25%? Those base facts means they aren't going away no matter how much people don't like change. Yes you need to mine lithium and generate electricity - you need to take oil out of the ground too .
- there are billions and billions of R&D money going into battery development and production. Whilst the number of people who cite their regular kent to Cornwall commute as a reason never to buy an EV is clearly bks, range anxiety is just a footnote; it'll disappear within years. Too much money and brain power being thrown at that problem for it not to be...
- How we charge and charging infrastructure is the biggest issue, but not a barrier to everyone. But means EV only cannot be the end state...
- no matter how much you dislike change, market forces and the kids decide it anyway. You're annoyed your car sounds are going away? Get ready over the next 15 years for even owning a car let alone driving it to be an anachronism...


That Goodwood hill run is just impressive full stop though.Yes a modern F1 car would go faster yes so would a proper hill climb car blaah blaarrgh, but - this still did 39.9 didn't it?

[FourWheelDrift]

Juno said:

tr3a said:

How delightfully predictable.

EV's are just superior cars. The only things they don't do well is make brmm-brmm noises, burn chemicals inefficiently and poison us.

And where does this electric come from?

Just don't mention (at current levels of demand) the environmental impact of cobalt mining to them and how that will only get worse - https://www.miningreview.com/top-stories/human-cos...

[Pvapour]

cidered77 said:

Max_Torque said:

I'm coming to the conclusion that "EV hating" is finally a new outlet for the old bobble hatter Subaru fanboys to get their teeth into! For years they have been left out in the cold, with nothing to incessantly and irrationally argue pointlessly about, and now, these "hateful EVs" have come along to give them hope and meaning! I mean, back then, there was no car in the world as good as the Subaru they drove (or their Evo if they were the Mit-sue-wishy cousins of our scooby delinquents), you couldn't ever change their mind, they had made it up. No facts, evidence or any amount of arguing would ever change their mind, and it's now the same on all the EV threads, which go like this:


1) A EV does something (usually beating some old ICE vehicle)

2) People say "yeah great, well fast, but it sounds too boring"

3) A few people say "this is clearly the future"

4) Someone pops up to say that EVs will "never catch on" because they personally drive 4000 miles a day before breakfast

5) Someone suggests that EVs are more pollution than ICE "because batteries", extra points if they include the pic of the "Lithium mine" that is actually an open cast iron ore mine in south america

6) Someone mentions Hydrogen

7) Someone says "but i have a 15 year old car that cost £3.75 and does 400 miles on a tank, therefore all EVs are pointless

8) Someone does about 3 seconds of googling, links to some item or report that they think re-enforces their point, but actually, they don't even read or understand the info they have posted that actually shows exactly the opposite of what they though it did.

9) Someone suggests the "National grid can't keep up"

10) Someone posts a picture of an EV on fire to make the point they catch alight

11) The entire thread descends into a pointless argument with zero factual content based entirely on the predudices and personal politics of the people posting


So that, is my "11 point scale" of EV thread progression!

Ah bring back the old "my scooby is faster than your xyz" threads eh...... #bobblehatting

How all very depressingly true. Do some of you people think you are being original saying they are milk floats or kitchen appliances? It's all so depressingly true to form - people playing out their roles to the letter: middle aged man who don't like change trying to cling to the past .

- an electric motor is 90% efficient. ICEs are what - 25%? Those base facts means they aren't going away no matter how much people don't like change. Yes you need to mine lithium and generate electricity - you need to take oil out of the ground too .
- there are billions and billions of R&D money going into battery development and production. Whilst the number of people who cite their regular kent to Cornwall commute as a reason never to buy an EV is clearly bks, range anxiety is just a footnote; it'll disappear within years. Too much money and brain power being thrown at that problem for it not to be...
- How we charge and charging infrastructure is the biggest issue, but not a barrier to everyone. But means EV only cannot be the end state...
- no matter how much you dislike change, market forces and the kids decide it anyway. You're annoyed your car sounds are going away? Get ready over the next 15 years for even owning a car let alone driving it to be an anachronism...


That Goodwood hill run is just impressive full stop though.Yes a modern F1 car would go faster yes so would a proper hill climb car blaah blaarrgh, but - this still did 39.9 didn't it?

I don't think its depressing, just funny how stupid they look now and how far behind they’ll be left, also means the rest of us can take advantage of them + we can appreciate both, ice and ev while theyre around, we win a comfortable future because of their short comings, how cool!

[rampageturke]

Don1 said:

Congratulati... No, can't do it. Lord March, allow everyone a fair crack of the whip please.

ok, that means your F1 car running on cold tyres

have fun

[J4CKO]

I think the lack of noise and drama does detract from the overall spectacle, especially since the ID.R looked so planted and stable.

There is however hope, some cutting edge development from the US to try and inject a bit of noise and fury to improve on the monotonous whine,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDafMzo4HO8

[Wammer]

For people asking what the future is. Quant is the future with there Nanocell technology that runs on salt water. I have been following them for years and the guy who designed the technology is like Elon Musk.

https://www.nanoflowcell.com/what-we-do/prototypin...

[Prizam]

RacerMike said:

Fastdruid said:

DC51981 said:

Nick Heidfeld still has the record as it’s based on Sunday times not Saturday qualifying time. ICE is still champion!!

They don't time modern F1 cars anymore for safety reasons after that run. Martin Whitmarsh (Mclaren Head of Operations) asked Heidfeld to "go for it" then realised afterwards it was massively dangerous and after speaking to Lord March the agreement was made not to time Modern F1 cars.

I'm sure a dedicated hillclimb car could beat the VW ID R, just looking at Heidfelds run and the F1 car is all over the shop while the ID R was stable as anything.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qP6oJGiX-Ds

Graeme Wright Jnr had a go in his Gould GR51 and managed 42.9. A fast time, but given that they're pretty much the fastest hillclimb car you can get, Heidfeld's time and the ID.Rs time are both very, very quick.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kD5tBgr2LLc

That car, on that run. Was using old tyres, with the wrong final gear ratios in. It sat bouncing the limiter for part of the track.

Set the GR51 up properly and it would smash the ID.R's time.

One of the new Gould cars, I think would get close to the 30s mark.

Strange how they haven't been invited back since setting that time....

[BricktopST205]

RacerMike said:

Graeme Wright Jnr had a go in his Gould GR51 and managed 42.9. A fast time, but given that they're pretty much the fastest hillclimb car you can get, Heidfeld's time and the ID.Rs time are both very, very quick.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kD5tBgr2LLc

That was 16 years ago do not forget. Also Heidfeld was 20 years ago. What are they frightened of not letting modern ICE specials have a go? After all the ID'R is a hill climb special after all. One thing that has been proven several times is that ICE is a lot better when the speed gets higher as EV's are gearing limited. Also I am no physics guro but how long is it going to be untill batteries can be charged to full in a couple of minutes, last 350 miles and have the same weight as a tank if petrol or is it even possible?

[cidered77]

rampageturke said:

Don1 said:

Congratulati... No, can't do it. Lord March, allow everyone a fair crack of the whip please.

ok, that means your F1 car running on cold tyres

have fun

same constraint as the original record though - difficult, but not insurmountable.

point is made elsewhere on this thread but nevermind F1 - a modern top class hill climb car (pillbeam or something with a judd V8) would surely beat this, but it's not in his lordship's interest to do that. Better keep the romance up, and the perception the record can only be taken by very special cars. Who pay his lordship to be there i'm sure...

[Sway]

Prizam said:

That car, on that run. Was using old tyres, with the wrong final gear ratios in. It sat bouncing the limiter for part of the track.

Set the GR51 up properly and it would smash the ID.R's time.

One of the new Gould cars, I think would get close to the 30s mark.

Strange how they haven't been invited back since setting that time....

Because there are staggeringly few people or businesses willing to cough up a couple of hundred quid for a weekend of watching an actual Hill climb?

FoS has never been focused on the competitive side. A serious percentage of Sunday punters leave to get home before the shootout even begins. Fewer than 5% of the cars run set a time.

Of course, it could go the route of Shelsley Walsh, etc. and become a fraction of the size, with no industry or corporate involvement, and hitting local businesses really hard.

Or it could stay the entertainment spectacle it is, and attract them in by the tens (hundreds) of thousands.

[RB Will]

What would be the consequences if say one of the modern F1 cars rather than just doing burnout and donuts decided to just go for it.
Obviously the time wouldn't be officially recognised but if I was one of the drivers I would be quite happy with the on board cam showing I did it in 35 secs and blab about it all over social media.

[Terminator X]

cidered77 said:

How all very depressingly true. Do some of you people think you are being original saying they are milk floats or kitchen appliances? It's all so depressingly true to form - people playing out their roles to the letter: middle aged man who don't like change trying to cling to the past .

- an electric motor is 90% efficient. ICEs are what - 25%? Those base facts means they aren't going away no matter how much people don't like change. Yes you need to mine lithium and generate electricity - you need to take oil out of the ground too .
- there are billions and billions of R&D money going into battery development and production. Whilst the number of people who cite their regular kent to Cornwall commute as a reason never to buy an EV is clearly bks, range anxiety is just a footnote; it'll disappear within years. Too much money and brain power being thrown at that problem for it not to be...
- How we charge and charging infrastructure is the biggest issue, but not a barrier to everyone. But means EV only cannot be the end state...
- no matter how much you dislike change, market forces and the kids decide it anyway. You're annoyed your car sounds are going away? Get ready over the next 15 years for even owning a car let alone driving it to be an anachronism...

That Goodwood hill run is just impressive full stop though.Yes a modern F1 car would go faster yes so would a proper hill climb car blaah blaarrgh, but - this still did 39.9 didn't it?

Don't get this not owning a car "thing". Anyone and everyone can get a taxi to their destination today yet choose not to, why do you think that come the self drivers we will suddenly stop driving and use them when we don't even do that today with squidgy bodied self drivers?

TX.

[Pvapour]

Terminator X said:

cidered77 said:

How all very depressingly true. Do some of you people think you are being original saying they are milk floats or kitchen appliances? It's all so depressingly true to form - people playing out their roles to the letter: middle aged man who don't like change trying to cling to the past .

- an electric motor is 90% efficient. ICEs are what - 25%? Those base facts means they aren't going away no matter how much people don't like change. Yes you need to mine lithium and generate electricity - you need to take oil out of the ground too .
- there are billions and billions of R&D money going into battery development and production. Whilst the number of people who cite their regular kent to Cornwall commute as a reason never to buy an EV is clearly bks, range anxiety is just a footnote; it'll disappear within years. Too much money and brain power being thrown at that problem for it not to be...
- How we charge and charging infrastructure is the biggest issue, but not a barrier to everyone. But means EV only cannot be the end state...
- no matter how much you dislike change, market forces and the kids decide it anyway. You're annoyed your car sounds are going away? Get ready over the next 15 years for even owning a car let alone driving it to be an anachronism...

That Goodwood hill run is just impressive full stop though.Yes a modern F1 car would go faster yes so would a proper hill climb car blaah blaarrgh, but - this still did 39.9 didn't it?

Don't get this not owning a car "thing". Anyone and everyone can get a taxi to their destination today yet choose not to, why do you think that come the self drivers we will suddenly stop driving and use them when we don't even do that today with squidgy bodied self drivers?

TX.

People are already moving away from ownership of cars, (millennials very much so, even housing that not bothered by) just look at how many are leasing, pcp etc... most cant afford to buy the cars outright sat on their drive they just look at the monthly, this fits in nicely with the way transport will go.. the next step will be ‘x’ £ amount per month gets you this selection of cars to summon.

the hierarchy will still be there for those who need it, more money, nicer car group. just like the old car membership clubs but most likely run by the manufacturers, think some are doing it already.

[otolith]

FourWheelDrift said:

Just don't mention (at current levels of demand) the environmental impact of cobalt mining to them and how that will only get worse - https://www.miningreview.com/top-stories/human-cos...

The issues with cobalt supply are one of the reasons that there is a strong push at the moment to develop cobalt-free Li batteries for automotive use.