RE: Lotus gears up for new sports car launch
Discussion
leglessAlex said:
CABC said:
Kambites is spot on. Evora would have been better as a 2 seat sports tourer. it really is a great car to drive and take on tour, but somewhat muddled in its execution and positioning.
I think this a lot about my car. In the spec I have it, with higher and softer touring suspension, extra sound deadening and no rear seats it’s a comfortable and relatively quiet place to sit, with a ton of luggage space between the boot and where the seats used to be. But then you get stuff like the wiper being crap, the cup holder practically being behind you between the seats and no armrest (although the versions before and after mine so have them).
Sure, you might not need these things in a balls to the wall drivers car like the Exige, but the Evora was supposed to be more of a softer, everyday sports GT in my eyes, and in that respect it probably just misses the mark. I still love mine, but I’d probably only recommend it to someone with as specific requirements as I had.
As an SLK55 owner, I love the power plant and creature comforts but I miss not having any space behind to put a bag or a coat. The Evora would suit me to the ground from this aspect. I would also be willing to compromise creature comforts for driving dynamics and involvement. However, if only they weren't 50% more expensive than my equivalent car so it's outside my price range.
Jellinek said:
To touch on many points in this thread, I always felt the Evora at launch was a sub niche model, a 2+2 sports car being a niche of the sports car market. Hence its appeal was limited. (For those about to troll, I feel 911 is a unique phenomenon and cannot be justified as a competitor, the significant majority of people who want a 911, won’t be persuaded to buy an Evora).
The additional length in the roof of the 2+2 arrangement made the styling awkward and made it too heavy to compete with the Cayman. All credit to Russell Carr for achieving what he did, but the package was a bridge too far to deliver a stunner.
A shorter wheelbase, 2-seater Evora would have facilitated a more desirable shape, improved the handling response, freed up some more accessible rear boot space (for a given overall length), would have been cheaper and delivered a stiffer platform. That last point is important since it may have allowed the roof to be taken off, a fundamental factor in sales success for this market is the spider option.
One final opinion (and it just that, so please don’t get frothy), I believe the views of enthusiasts re. engine provenance and carryover platforms are important for the reason that it is enthusiasts who inform the general buying public. If the magazines and forums berated Porsche for finishing races at the back and using VW engines on their halo sports car products then the general public would be less inclined to buy the SUVs. Porsche’s sporting brand is built on credible, global, technical achievements and unique platforms to this day, in contrast to Lotus whose success in F1 is a distant memory and unknown to anyone born in the last 30 years, bar budding historians.
I wish Lotus every success, it’s my favourite marque without doubt, but nobody should underestimate the scale of the task in hand. Let’s hope they nail it!
It's part of the massive failings of the management of the modern era in that they have perpetually aimed low and still missed. The Evora should never have been pitched at the 911, as you say. The 911 is a generic, mass produced sports car that can be sold for less than an Evora almost. Lotus lacked the management belief and ability to deliver a halo product into the right spot in the market which was against Ferrari and that level of sports car. Absolutely no one wants a 911 alternative. They want a 911. They certainly won't be paying 911 prices for something that isn't a 911. Conversely there is no shortage of consumers who want a product that's pitched at Ferrari or Lamborghini yet costs half as much. Suddenly your product becomes highly desirable because it is unbelievably cheap compared to what it is line up against instead of being the same price and not a 911. The additional length in the roof of the 2+2 arrangement made the styling awkward and made it too heavy to compete with the Cayman. All credit to Russell Carr for achieving what he did, but the package was a bridge too far to deliver a stunner.
A shorter wheelbase, 2-seater Evora would have facilitated a more desirable shape, improved the handling response, freed up some more accessible rear boot space (for a given overall length), would have been cheaper and delivered a stiffer platform. That last point is important since it may have allowed the roof to be taken off, a fundamental factor in sales success for this market is the spider option.
One final opinion (and it just that, so please don’t get frothy), I believe the views of enthusiasts re. engine provenance and carryover platforms are important for the reason that it is enthusiasts who inform the general buying public. If the magazines and forums berated Porsche for finishing races at the back and using VW engines on their halo sports car products then the general public would be less inclined to buy the SUVs. Porsche’s sporting brand is built on credible, global, technical achievements and unique platforms to this day, in contrast to Lotus whose success in F1 is a distant memory and unknown to anyone born in the last 30 years, bar budding historians.
I wish Lotus every success, it’s my favourite marque without doubt, but nobody should underestimate the scale of the task in hand. Let’s hope they nail it!
If they want the replacement to be a success then it needs to be shaped and pitched for journalists to put it up against a Ferrari and to talk about Lotus's Ferrari bearing F1 days, the genius of the company and that it'll do a track day as well as that Ferrari but cost chump change. If they build a 911 alternative again then they will have exactly the same problem as they have incurred now which is that joirnos line it up against the 911 and point out in every paragraph why the 911 is the king of the 911 segment and that no one who wants a Porsche 911 is going to find a Lotus a superior proposition.
Frankly, it's degrading to the heritage of a brand such as Lotus to be spoken in the same sentence as my accountant's daily, the daily of my local publican, my lovely neighbour who makes curtains from her home or every single middle office City worker who's had a couple of good bonuses and pay rises and now needs an object that explains that this has happened. The Lotus brand and history has nothing in common with a mass produced, generic sports car that defines and owns its own segment.
A Lotus is a car that does what a Ferrari does but for a fraction of the cost. For years the only thing management have done that is remotely aimed at Ferrari is the opening of a tat shop for spods on holiday.
DonkeyApple said:
It's part of the massive failings of the management of the modern era in that they have perpetually aimed low and still missed. The Evora should never have been pitched at the 911, as you say. The 911 is a generic, mass produced sports car that can be sold for less than an Evora almost. Lotus lacked the management belief and ability to deliver a halo product into the right spot in the market which was against Ferrari and that level of sports car. Absolutely no one wants a 911 alternative. They want a 911. They certainly won't be paying 911 prices for something that isn't a 911. Conversely there is no shortage of consumers who want a product that's pitched at Ferrari or Lamborghini yet costs half as much. Suddenly your product becomes highly desirable because it is unbelievably cheap compared to what it is line up against instead of being the same price and not a 911.
If they want the replacement to be a success then it needs to be shaped and pitched for journalists to put it up against a Ferrari and to talk about Lotus's Ferrari bearing F1 days, the genius of the company and that it'll do a track day as well as that Ferrari but cost chump change. If they build a 911 alternative again then they will have exactly the same problem as they have incurred now which is that joirnos line it up against the 911 and point out in every paragraph why the 911 is the king of the 911 segment and that no one who wants a Porsche 911 is going to find a Lotus a superior proposition.
Frankly, it's degrading to the heritage of a brand such as Lotus to be spoken in the same sentence as my accountant's daily, the daily of my local publican, my lovely neighbour who makes curtains from her home or every single middle office City worker who's had a couple of good bonuses and pay rises and now needs an object that explains that this has happened. The Lotus brand and history has nothing in common with a mass produced, generic sports car that defines and owns its own segment.
A Lotus is a car that does what a Ferrari does but for a fraction of the cost. For years the only thing management have done that is remotely aimed at Ferrari is the opening of a tat shop for spods on holiday.
If they want the replacement to be a success then it needs to be shaped and pitched for journalists to put it up against a Ferrari and to talk about Lotus's Ferrari bearing F1 days, the genius of the company and that it'll do a track day as well as that Ferrari but cost chump change. If they build a 911 alternative again then they will have exactly the same problem as they have incurred now which is that joirnos line it up against the 911 and point out in every paragraph why the 911 is the king of the 911 segment and that no one who wants a Porsche 911 is going to find a Lotus a superior proposition.
Frankly, it's degrading to the heritage of a brand such as Lotus to be spoken in the same sentence as my accountant's daily, the daily of my local publican, my lovely neighbour who makes curtains from her home or every single middle office City worker who's had a couple of good bonuses and pay rises and now needs an object that explains that this has happened. The Lotus brand and history has nothing in common with a mass produced, generic sports car that defines and owns its own segment.
A Lotus is a car that does what a Ferrari does but for a fraction of the cost. For years the only thing management have done that is remotely aimed at Ferrari is the opening of a tat shop for spods on holiday.
Who keeps thinking the Evora was pitched against the 911?
The Evora was a natural progression as a larger touring model up from the Elise
and a successor to Excel as a 2+2 and some Esprit too.
The way they managed to create a mid engined 2+2 is unique?
There's a 2 +0 too
If you want an Evora thats what you buy
If you want a 911 ditto
Look at Blueg33 bought 2 Evoras then wanted to try a Ferrari.
Still appreciates Evora for what it is ( hope that's ok Blueg33)
The Evora was a natural progression as a larger touring model up from the Elise
and a successor to Excel as a 2+2 and some Esprit too.
The way they managed to create a mid engined 2+2 is unique?
There's a 2 +0 too
If you want an Evora thats what you buy
If you want a 911 ditto
Look at Blueg33 bought 2 Evoras then wanted to try a Ferrari.
Still appreciates Evora for what it is ( hope that's ok Blueg33)
saaby93 said:
Who keeps thinking the Evora was pitched against the 911?
Click back to some Evora launch reviews and to what Lotus were saying in 2009. The price was pitched between the two Porsche cars with a view to competing with both of them. Ended up falling between two stools so they had to introduce the supercharged Evora S a year later trying to get closer to 911 and the price went up with it. That's the way things have stayed, with Evora costing 911 money. What's truly scary is today's Elise at £44,640 is only a packet of crisps cheaper than a Cayman at £44,790. Lotus are going to have to work hard to get their new car looking like a "value" proposition. The right car at the right price - no compromises.rockin said:
saaby93 said:
Who keeps thinking the Evora was pitched against the 911?
Click back to some Evora launch reviews and to what Lotus were saying in 2009. The price was pitched between the two Porsche cars with a view to competing with both of them. Ended up falling between two stools so they had to introduce the supercharged Evora S a year later trying to get closer to 911 and the price went up with it. That's the way things have stayed, with Evora costing 911 money. What's truly scary is today's Elise at £44,640 is only a packet of crisps cheaper than a Cayman at £44,790. Lotus are going to have to work hard to get their new car looking like a "value" proposition. The right car at the right price - no compromises.Lee Jones Jnr said:
saaby93 said:
If you want an Elise you dont buy a Cayman. Chalk and cheese
Because most would buy a Boxster?For most people Porsche is a more prestigious marque and in the case above, significantly ‘more car’.
What is a competitor to an Elise? Is there one really?
Ubiquitous MX5 is there and based on an elan
Alfa 4c
Alpine
saaby93 said:
Isnt buying Lotus partly due to its British Heritage = that doesnt work for a Cayman or a Boxster
Ubiquitous MX5 is there and based on an elan
Alfa 4c
Alpine
I know I'm a sample of one, but the British built aspect is something that didn't factor into me stumping up the money for an Evora. Ubiquitous MX5 is there and based on an elan
Alfa 4c
Alpine
It's nice to know that my purchase is, in a small way, helping to keep a number of people employed in Norfolk, but it wasn't in any way a driving factor. That said, I've heard that sales in every other market is very very much driven by that 'British sports car' prestige, particularly in markets like Japan.
leglessAlex said:
I know I'm a sample of one, but the British built aspect is something that didn't factor into me stumping up the money for an Evora.
It's nice to know that my purchase is, in a small way, helping to keep a number of people employed in Norfolk, but it wasn't in any way a driving factor. That said, I've heard that sales in every other market is very very much driven by that 'British sports car' prestige, particularly in markets like Japan.
Exactly. I bet it doesn't factor in many peoples' decision making when buying a car in the UK. It's nice to know that my purchase is, in a small way, helping to keep a number of people employed in Norfolk, but it wasn't in any way a driving factor. That said, I've heard that sales in every other market is very very much driven by that 'British sports car' prestige, particularly in markets like Japan.
Whilst I don't think having a hand built car is any better or worse than a machine built one, it does make me more forgiving of its flaws
DonkeyApple said:
It's part of the massive failings of the management of the modern era in that they have perpetually aimed low and still missed. The Evora should never have been pitched at the 911, as you say. The 911 is a generic, mass produced sports car that can be sold for less than an Evora almost. Lotus lacked the management belief and ability to deliver a halo product into the right spot in the market which was against Ferrari and that level of sports car. Absolutely no one wants a 911 alternative. They want a 911. They certainly won't be paying 911 prices for something that isn't a 911. Conversely there is no shortage of consumers who want a product that's pitched at Ferrari or Lamborghini yet costs half as much. Suddenly your product becomes highly desirable because it is unbelievably cheap compared to what it is line up against instead of being the same price and not a 911.
If they want the replacement to be a success then it needs to be shaped and pitched for journalists to put it up against a Ferrari and to talk about Lotus's Ferrari bearing F1 days, the genius of the company and that it'll do a track day as well as that Ferrari but cost chump change. If they build a 911 alternative again then they will have exactly the same problem as they have incurred now which is that joirnos line it up against the 911 and point out in every paragraph why the 911 is the king of the 911 segment and that no one who wants a Porsche 911 is going to find a Lotus a superior proposition.
Frankly, it's degrading to the heritage of a brand such as Lotus to be spoken in the same sentence as my accountant's daily, the daily of my local publican, my lovely neighbour who makes curtains from her home or every single middle office City worker who's had a couple of good bonuses and pay rises and now needs an object that explains that this has happened. The Lotus brand and history has nothing in common with a mass produced, generic sports car that defines and owns its own segment.
A Lotus is a car that does what a Ferrari does but for a fraction of the cost. For years the only thing management have done that is remotely aimed at Ferrari is the opening of a tat shop for spods on holiday.
I find myself nodding along to what you say there.If they want the replacement to be a success then it needs to be shaped and pitched for journalists to put it up against a Ferrari and to talk about Lotus's Ferrari bearing F1 days, the genius of the company and that it'll do a track day as well as that Ferrari but cost chump change. If they build a 911 alternative again then they will have exactly the same problem as they have incurred now which is that joirnos line it up against the 911 and point out in every paragraph why the 911 is the king of the 911 segment and that no one who wants a Porsche 911 is going to find a Lotus a superior proposition.
Frankly, it's degrading to the heritage of a brand such as Lotus to be spoken in the same sentence as my accountant's daily, the daily of my local publican, my lovely neighbour who makes curtains from her home or every single middle office City worker who's had a couple of good bonuses and pay rises and now needs an object that explains that this has happened. The Lotus brand and history has nothing in common with a mass produced, generic sports car that defines and owns its own segment.
A Lotus is a car that does what a Ferrari does but for a fraction of the cost. For years the only thing management have done that is remotely aimed at Ferrari is the opening of a tat shop for spods on holiday.
I’ve had an Evora and although it was a 7 year old, £30k car with 275bhp the general public to a man reacted to it as if it was a Mclaren. Conversations at every petrol stop, photos on the motorway, the lot.
And to drive and be in it really felt much more like a junior supercar in terms of handling, compromises and character (but not performance).
A 400bhp £80k 2-seater in 2009 really could have hit the spot. I hope it does 10 years later.
CABC said:
p4cks said:
Whilst I don't think having a hand built car is any better or worse than a machine built one, it does make me more forgiving of its flaws
a lot of the flaws are less about the hand built aspect and more about cheap components. same can be said about Morgan.I certainly think Lotus are aiming, with their price range far to high.
How many people would buy an elise for 27k-35k, say with 180-200bhp engine at 900kg
An Exige for 40k -55k with 280-350bhp
An Esprit 60k - 100k with 400-500bhp.
The Esprit name needs to return, so many Lotus fans love the name and are dying to have one!
Keep it simple will bring buyers in!!!
Unfortunately we'll probably see a Hybrid which will just add weight and reduce the character of Lotus brand.
How many people would buy an elise for 27k-35k, say with 180-200bhp engine at 900kg
An Exige for 40k -55k with 280-350bhp
An Esprit 60k - 100k with 400-500bhp.
The Esprit name needs to return, so many Lotus fans love the name and are dying to have one!
Keep it simple will bring buyers in!!!
Unfortunately we'll probably see a Hybrid which will just add weight and reduce the character of Lotus brand.
M4CK 1 said:
I certainly think Lotus are aiming, with their price range far to high.
How many people would buy an elise for 27k-35k, say with 180-200bhp engine at 900kg
An Exige for 40k -55k with 280-350bhp
An Esprit 60k - 100k with 400-500bhp.
The Esprit name needs to return, so many Lotus fans love the name and are dying to have one!
Keep it simple will bring buyers in!!!
Unfortunately we'll probably see a Hybrid which will just add weight and reduce the character of Lotus brand.
I’m in for a £60-100k Esprit if it looks anything like the 2010 car.How many people would buy an elise for 27k-35k, say with 180-200bhp engine at 900kg
An Exige for 40k -55k with 280-350bhp
An Esprit 60k - 100k with 400-500bhp.
The Esprit name needs to return, so many Lotus fans love the name and are dying to have one!
Keep it simple will bring buyers in!!!
Unfortunately we'll probably see a Hybrid which will just add weight and reduce the character of Lotus brand.
The current NSX type styling is ideal.
M4CK 1 said:
I certainly think Lotus are aiming, with their price range far to high.
How many people would buy an elise for 27k-35k, say with 180-200bhp engine at 900kg
An Exige for 40k -55k with 280-350bhp
An Esprit 60k - 100k with 400-500bhp.
The Esprit name needs to return, so many Lotus fans love the name and are dying to have one!
Keep it simple will bring buyers in!!!
Unfortunately we'll probably see a Hybrid which will just add weight and reduce the character of Lotus brand.
Low weight costs money - whether it be aluminium, fibreglass or even more so carbon fibre (even the recycled variety) so there is not a hope in hell of Lotus getting anywhere near your figures (except perhaps 100k for 500bhp). Keeping it simple won't bring buyers in - they need to increase equipment levels and refinement to close Alpine levels for the Elise replacement and well beyond that for an Evora replacement. How many people would buy an elise for 27k-35k, say with 180-200bhp engine at 900kg
An Exige for 40k -55k with 280-350bhp
An Esprit 60k - 100k with 400-500bhp.
The Esprit name needs to return, so many Lotus fans love the name and are dying to have one!
Keep it simple will bring buyers in!!!
Unfortunately we'll probably see a Hybrid which will just add weight and reduce the character of Lotus brand.
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