Urgent Insurance advice - Carpark smash
Discussion
Thanks Chaps, Sigh of relief i'm not alone.
I've given the car a proper wash and found some more, as expected. They are obviously rushing with bad prep. I don't want the car to go back there, they've had their chances. Now, the only panel without defect is the roof. On a 4,500 mile car less than 9 months old. FML.
More blemishes on the bonnet, looks like they haven't sorted the last ones properly and even what appears to be insect splatter under the paint!
20160911_153214 by Rich Perkins, on Flickr
20160911_153355 by Rich Perkins, on Flickr
20160911_153523 by Rich Perkins, on Flickr
20160911_155140 by Rich Perkins, on Flickr
Blemishes on pretty much every panel they've touched:
20160911_153934 by Rich Perkins, on Flickr
20160911_154637 by Rich Perkins, on Flickr
20160911_154751 by Rich Perkins, on Flickr
20160911_154910 by Rich Perkins, on Flickr
20160911_155702 by Rich Perkins, on Flickr
More overspray on the front of the sill:
20160911_153711 by Rich Perkins, on Flickr
Oh, is that a bit of tar.. wipe wipe wipe, yep, it's under the lacquer:
20160911_153724 by Rich Perkins, on Flickr
20160911_153744 by Rich Perkins, on Flickr
Masking lines/Overspray:
20160911_153759 by Rich Perkins, on Flickr
20160911_154649 by Rich Perkins, on Flickr
20160911_160015 by Rich Perkins, on Flickr
20160911_160135 by Rich Perkins, on Flickr
20160911_160437 by Rich Perkins, on Flickr
20160911_160455 by Rich Perkins, on Flickr
More Holograms:
20160911_153849 by Rich Perkins, on Flickr
Scratches:
20160911_160833 by Rich Perkins, on Flickr
20160911_160842 by Rich Perkins, on Flickr
20160911_160936 by Rich Perkins, on Flickr
20160911_154715 by Rich Perkins, on Flickr
Windscreen Seals pulled out:
20160911_155313 by Rich Perkins, on Flickr
20160911_155338 by Rich Perkins, on Flickr
Can you see that dirt? Dried water marks? Well, it's not coming off and I think it's under the clearcoat!
20160911_155551 by Rich Perkins, on Flickr
I've given the car a proper wash and found some more, as expected. They are obviously rushing with bad prep. I don't want the car to go back there, they've had their chances. Now, the only panel without defect is the roof. On a 4,500 mile car less than 9 months old. FML.
More blemishes on the bonnet, looks like they haven't sorted the last ones properly and even what appears to be insect splatter under the paint!
20160911_153214 by Rich Perkins, on Flickr20160911_153355 by Rich Perkins, on Flickr20160911_153523 by Rich Perkins, on Flickr20160911_155140 by Rich Perkins, on FlickrBlemishes on pretty much every panel they've touched:
20160911_153934 by Rich Perkins, on Flickr20160911_154637 by Rich Perkins, on Flickr20160911_154751 by Rich Perkins, on Flickr20160911_154910 by Rich Perkins, on Flickr20160911_155702 by Rich Perkins, on FlickrMore overspray on the front of the sill:
20160911_153711 by Rich Perkins, on FlickrOh, is that a bit of tar.. wipe wipe wipe, yep, it's under the lacquer:
20160911_153724 by Rich Perkins, on Flickr20160911_153744 by Rich Perkins, on FlickrMasking lines/Overspray:
20160911_153759 by Rich Perkins, on Flickr20160911_154649 by Rich Perkins, on Flickr20160911_160015 by Rich Perkins, on Flickr20160911_160135 by Rich Perkins, on Flickr20160911_160437 by Rich Perkins, on Flickr20160911_160455 by Rich Perkins, on FlickrMore Holograms:
20160911_153849 by Rich Perkins, on FlickrScratches:
20160911_160833 by Rich Perkins, on Flickr20160911_160842 by Rich Perkins, on Flickr20160911_160936 by Rich Perkins, on Flickr20160911_154715 by Rich Perkins, on FlickrWindscreen Seals pulled out:
20160911_155313 by Rich Perkins, on Flickr20160911_155338 by Rich Perkins, on FlickrCan you see that dirt? Dried water marks? Well, it's not coming off and I think it's under the clearcoat!
20160911_155551 by Rich Perkins, on FlickrEdited by EnthusiastOwned on Saturday 8th October 10:13
Thanks guys.
I fear I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place.
I've spoken to my insurers who said they will get an image company out within 48 hours to take photos and document. I've said I would strongly prefer the car to not return to the same bodyshop and they agreed. I asked for my local main dealer.
Gave my local dealer a call, they refused to do the work due to liability reasons, understandable but no use to me. Spoke to Seat UK, who were once again useless and advised they can only ask on my behalf and I'm better off ringing around their approved garages finding someone to accept the car. No help as the next main dealer with a bodyshop is an hour away.
I'm realising I'm onto a losing battle and feel like I may need to know my legal rights. I can't keep having my car repaired like this, if I accept the repair I risk hefty financial penalty when it comes to trade in or vehicle return.
I fear I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place.
I've spoken to my insurers who said they will get an image company out within 48 hours to take photos and document. I've said I would strongly prefer the car to not return to the same bodyshop and they agreed. I asked for my local main dealer.
Gave my local dealer a call, they refused to do the work due to liability reasons, understandable but no use to me. Spoke to Seat UK, who were once again useless and advised they can only ask on my behalf and I'm better off ringing around their approved garages finding someone to accept the car. No help as the next main dealer with a bodyshop is an hour away.
I'm realising I'm onto a losing battle and feel like I may need to know my legal rights. I can't keep having my car repaired like this, if I accept the repair I risk hefty financial penalty when it comes to trade in or vehicle return.
anniesdad said:
Hi Rich,
I'm sorry to read about your ongoing problems. Dealing with the third party insurers directly and having their "approved" repairers repair the vehicle sadly is not the best course of action to take for the vehicle owner. I know that this is little help to you right now but I think it's important others know the truth of the matter, instead of offering advice to "just let the third party insurers handle it". This happens all the time, less exacting people let shoddy workmanship go to the benefit of the paying insurer and repairer.
You mentioned the at-fault insurers have instructed an engineer to inspect the vehicle post-repair and that hasn't happened two weeks later? Is that right? have the insurers said anything about your issues being with the repairer and not with them? Have you instructed the insurers not to release any monies to the repairer? Have you considered getting an estimate from an independent shop/mobile repairer, paying for the work to be done yourself and demanding payment from the repairers/insurers (possible moneyclaim online action)?
Regards
Steve
Thanks Steve, I was actually considering contacting you for advice - So it's great to see you're still taking interest in this tread. I agree whole heartily with your advice and I didn't realise at the time I could have chosen my own garage. I was led by the insurers (looking back, it was spiel) to use their own garages. Stay strong and don't use them is my only advice. The insurers will have cut the cost down to the bone, the bodyshops are on a very tight budget and time constraint, meaning their business model is numbers, in and out as fast as possible and quality is low down on the priority list. I'm sorry to read about your ongoing problems. Dealing with the third party insurers directly and having their "approved" repairers repair the vehicle sadly is not the best course of action to take for the vehicle owner. I know that this is little help to you right now but I think it's important others know the truth of the matter, instead of offering advice to "just let the third party insurers handle it". This happens all the time, less exacting people let shoddy workmanship go to the benefit of the paying insurer and repairer.
You mentioned the at-fault insurers have instructed an engineer to inspect the vehicle post-repair and that hasn't happened two weeks later? Is that right? have the insurers said anything about your issues being with the repairer and not with them? Have you instructed the insurers not to release any monies to the repairer? Have you considered getting an estimate from an independent shop/mobile repairer, paying for the work to be done yourself and demanding payment from the repairers/insurers (possible moneyclaim online action)?
Regards
Steve
Ok, to answer your questions - The insurers originally instructed an engineer (IMCS - If that rings a bell?) who came out to look at my car after the 1st rectification (prior to the 2nd rectification, which has just happened). The engineer took notes, agreed it was a mess who then forwarded the agreed works to the insurers and bodyshop. The bodyshop then rectified as per engineer notes and returned the car to me. The insurers have confirmed the engineers did not review the car post the engineer agreed rectification. So basically the bodyshop did the work instructed by the engineer report and no one checked the quality afterwards. Normal process apparently (sounds silly to me).
I've instructed the insurers not to release funds to the bodyshop until this claim is finalised, but they have stated it's their issue to discuss and arrange and not for me to worry about, I've advised I want it on file anyway but it was fairly clear it's their choice of bodyshop so their problem. The insurers have 100% agreed that the car will not go back to that bodyshop and I can choose any of my own choice. However, it is my choice and must take care with my own due diligence - If the repair is not satisfactory the insurers will not take responsibility and it will be my responsibility to take action with the bodyshop for rectification. Fair enough. I am allowed a hire car but must be through the insurer (enterprise) for the agreed repair term, it will be returned once repaired and if rectification works are required, it is on me to organise a hire car (so I will arrange with the bodyshop prior to taking them on).
I've contacted a few bodyshops, but because the car is so new and on finance I want Seat approved which limits me some what. My local dealer does not want anything to do with the repair due to liability reasons, fair enough; I've had a chat with a local-ish dealer (Hayseldons, Barnsely) who seems very interested and deal with a lot of rectification work (quite a few from other Authorised repairers too). I'm going to visit them on Saturday for a quote and chat but they seem good over the phone where they only deal with VAG Group of cars, not on time or budget constraints and quality is their number one priority.
I have a few concerns of my own. I'm expecting the rectification works to cost a fortune. Main dealer, potentially a 60-80% respray, the dealer may refuse to use the same panels, damaged alloys and seals. The insurer may refuse the quote or even write the car off (which I would happily accept if i'm honest). Thoughts?
edo said:
Glad you are able to take it to a place of your choice. I'd seriously consider adding up the time spent and billing the insurer for this. Is it your insurer or the 3rd party insurer you are dealing with?
Is that even an option? I have spent countless hours on this. Kinda feels greedy. I'm claiming off the 3rd party. Bit of an update.
Engineer came to view the car. This time an older chap, more professional and a little more stern (or realistic depending on point of view). He said a lot of the things were not right but the odd little indent or pinhole that you have to really bend down and look for can't be rectified as all repairs will have a certain amount of acceptable defects. He mentioned all new cars have around 3 small defects which is acceptable. Either way he said the car needs a respray, realistically.
I've taken the car to three garages so far, two won't do the work. Too much for them, liability reasons and rectifications are a pain in the arse. Fair enough. The third garage although eager at first, when looking at the car could only say f
kin 'ell at every panel. They seem reluctant now but I am awaiting a quote - He said FULL respray only and all four wheels, roof and all. He said by the time you've masked this bit here, that bit there; it's easier doing the whole lot - That way nothing is missed and there will be no masking marks or blending. I'm now reluctant as I don't really want the car to go somewhere unless they want to do the job. And a full respray terrifies me. All this for a front end smash. The more work done the more likely for issues. I can see where this is heading.
On that note, I'm busy as hell at the moment, I can't be chasing around all the time, I feel like I need to either put this to bed or put it on hold till after Xmas. And what if I fail to find someone who will take it on? Do you think if I get a reasonable quote that the insurance accepts, they'll pay me, close the case and let me deal with it in my own time? Risk is mine as I may never get it sorted, but that's where we are. In my head, worst case no one fixes is but i'll have cash to balance any negative equity come time to trade in. Thoughts?
Engineer came to view the car. This time an older chap, more professional and a little more stern (or realistic depending on point of view). He said a lot of the things were not right but the odd little indent or pinhole that you have to really bend down and look for can't be rectified as all repairs will have a certain amount of acceptable defects. He mentioned all new cars have around 3 small defects which is acceptable. Either way he said the car needs a respray, realistically.
I've taken the car to three garages so far, two won't do the work. Too much for them, liability reasons and rectifications are a pain in the arse. Fair enough. The third garage although eager at first, when looking at the car could only say f
kin 'ell at every panel. They seem reluctant now but I am awaiting a quote - He said FULL respray only and all four wheels, roof and all. He said by the time you've masked this bit here, that bit there; it's easier doing the whole lot - That way nothing is missed and there will be no masking marks or blending. I'm now reluctant as I don't really want the car to go somewhere unless they want to do the job. And a full respray terrifies me. All this for a front end smash. The more work done the more likely for issues. I can see where this is heading. On that note, I'm busy as hell at the moment, I can't be chasing around all the time, I feel like I need to either put this to bed or put it on hold till after Xmas. And what if I fail to find someone who will take it on? Do you think if I get a reasonable quote that the insurance accepts, they'll pay me, close the case and let me deal with it in my own time? Risk is mine as I may never get it sorted, but that's where we are. In my head, worst case no one fixes is but i'll have cash to balance any negative equity come time to trade in. Thoughts?
Edited by EnthusiastOwned on Thursday 22 September 20:54
Sheepshanks said:
Could you get it fixed at a SEAT approved bodyshop - or have you already tried that?
At least that way you shouldn't have any trouble if you want to return the car at the end of the PCP.
It was a SEAT approved bodyshop who's got it to this stage At least that way you shouldn't have any trouble if you want to return the car at the end of the PCP.
Unsure what they'll say, on one argument its a Seat approved bodyshop. On the other it's my responsibility and duty of care work is done to good standard. And in my experience all these dealers and approvals don't help much, they are all independent of each other so not their problem what f
k up someone else does, same network or not. It'll be a headache come trade in, it either needs to be right or I need to be financially subsidised - Issue is, it;s only guess work what that may be. TazLondon said:
This whole saga sucks. Personally, if I got to this stage, I'd just leave it now and take the financial hit when you hand the car back. I think that going for a full car respray is a lot of hassle and you still don't know how it will end up.
Just cut your losses and put all this behind you. Make doubly sure that your insurance is not impacted in any way.
This is my current thinking. With a full respray, especially one that no one really wants to do, it's only going to get worse (more than likely). But if I don't sort it now with the insurers it's only going to be more difficult as time passes. I think I'll have a chat with the insurers when I get the quote, see if we can come to an agreement. Just cut your losses and put all this behind you. Make doubly sure that your insurance is not impacted in any way.
chr15b said:
Have you explored seeing what deal you could get part-ex'ing this one for a new one?
No end of colleagues have traded in a 1.5-2 year old car for a new one with a similar or in some cases lower monthly amount, extending the term back to the original length.
I.e., assuming you have 1.5 years of a 3 year term, taking a new car and starting a fresh 3 year term.
Ok overall you'll be paying for the 'car' longer, but it'd get you into a new never damaged (to your knowledge) car.
Yes, currently have negative equity even with a top price. Car is too new. Need to keep it for another year before I get anywhere near equal equity. Plus i'm at least £2k down with substandard repair from the garages I've spoken to, some won't even take it.No end of colleagues have traded in a 1.5-2 year old car for a new one with a similar or in some cases lower monthly amount, extending the term back to the original length.
I.e., assuming you have 1.5 years of a 3 year term, taking a new car and starting a fresh 3 year term.
Ok overall you'll be paying for the 'car' longer, but it'd get you into a new never damaged (to your knowledge) car.
Issue is, I would like to start again due to the repairs (I would have kept it for the full term otherwise, like the car a lot), but not prepared to pay off negative equity.
saaby93 said:
edo said:
Talk frankly to the 3rd party insurer.
Explain you are sick and tired of spending time on something that was not your fault. Explain you cant spend more time on it.
Explain that 2 bodyshops have refused to rectify the substandard work and that only one will touch it and the quote is x.
See if you can get a part exchange value on the car - try to establish what the poor work is reducing it by, plus all you time. If this figure is less than the above the insurer may pay you to go away. You have the money in the pocket to change in your own time and not be out of pocket..
Failing that ask the insurer to buy your car off you for what it would be worth if perfect as it was before their clients car rolled into it.
been there got ticket Explain you are sick and tired of spending time on something that was not your fault. Explain you cant spend more time on it.
Explain that 2 bodyshops have refused to rectify the substandard work and that only one will touch it and the quote is x.
See if you can get a part exchange value on the car - try to establish what the poor work is reducing it by, plus all you time. If this figure is less than the above the insurer may pay you to go away. You have the money in the pocket to change in your own time and not be out of pocket..
Failing that ask the insurer to buy your car off you for what it would be worth if perfect as it was before their clients car rolled into it.
At this stage TP insurer decides its cheaper to pay out, take the car to auction than try to undo the paintwork.
How do I calculate cost, my time and how do I justify it?
Blue Oval84 said:
I'd seriously be considering looking outside of the dealer approved range, or, how about any other VAG approved bodyshop? Bit of a longshot but would an Audi repairers or VW for example be able to do it without breaking the warranty?
Whereabouts are you OP?
What exactly is it that they've done to the other panels that means they need a respray? If it's the marring then that's to be expected but will polish out (not by the bodyshop if you want it done right). Obviously bad paint with stuff under lacquer definitely won't rectify with a polish. I'm just confused how they managed to ruin doors etc.
I had my Z4 done at a BMW bodyshop years ago and it came out marred everywhere from a bad wash. A quick chat with the insurers later and I had a cheque to get a pro-detailed re-polish the whole car
Sheffield. Any VAG bodyshop can repair which will not affect warranty. I want dealer network as they prioritise quality, non dealer network usually work to time and cost, and don't specialise in the brand.Whereabouts are you OP?
What exactly is it that they've done to the other panels that means they need a respray? If it's the marring then that's to be expected but will polish out (not by the bodyshop if you want it done right). Obviously bad paint with stuff under lacquer definitely won't rectify with a polish. I'm just confused how they managed to ruin doors etc.
I had my Z4 done at a BMW bodyshop years ago and it came out marred everywhere from a bad wash. A quick chat with the insurers later and I had a cheque to get a pro-detailed re-polish the whole car
Marring can be polished out but is inconsequential as basically front end needs a full respray for other issues, bumper, bonnet and both wings. Front of both doors are scuffed we believe due to sanding of the wings overlapping and need doing but once again, this ares needs blending anyway. Both sills need doing because of overspray on them as do the A-Pillars so blending pushing into doors, rear quarters and roof. Rear bumper needs painting and o/s rear quarter. N/s rear quarter needs blending as will boot as a result. By the time all this is done it's easier doing the whole lot rather than masking, blending and being selective. Both Engineer and Bodyshop said this (without any prompts). As the bodyshop said, head in hands and f
kin' 'Ell. Everytime a mistake is made, the rectification works stretch a little further. I'm expecting a £4-6k quote. Any less and I'm concerned quite frankly.
lord trumpton said:
Having just read this through, its just a prime example of how much of a complete faff the whole insurance company thing can be. Even more so in this case where OP has not done anything other than parked his car safely away in a corner of a car park.
We all pay through the nose for our premiums and are rewarded by dreadful service and standards of repair.
Oh, OP....Just one more thing
What in the blue fk are those on your feet?
Tell me about it, terrible right? A prime example why to NEVER accept the insurers bodyshop, all this because someone wanted to save a few hundred quid. Ended costs thousands more. Buy cheap, buy twice for twice the price once again. We all pay through the nose for our premiums and are rewarded by dreadful service and standards of repair.
Oh, OP....Just one more thing
What in the blue f
k are those on your feet?Havaianas. If you've not tried them, jump on it.
jamei303 said:
When I had a no fault hit on my Focus I contacted my own insurers, rejected their repairers and took it to a Ford-branded bodyshop. They were great and replaced all the relevant panels, a scuffed tyre sidewall meant a new tyre etc. They knew how to document everything and get it agreed by the insurers. I couldn't imagine an insurance company would have given their own repairer free-reign like that.
The other party's insurers were desperate to uplift it to some bodyshop 40 miles away and give me a hire car, which I didn't need. The Ford dealership offered me one anyway.
Thats the issue, I accepted the insurers bodyshop due to being approved. I was wrong. The other party's insurers were desperate to uplift it to some bodyshop 40 miles away and give me a hire car, which I didn't need. The Ford dealership offered me one anyway.
edo said:
Your time is easy - take your weekly salary, divide by standard working week hours.
Ahh, easy. I can justify a good £500 at a minimum then. rb5er said:
Your car deserves to be impounded and crushed for wearing that sort of footwear. The hit and runner is a hero in this situation.
Did that sound cooler in your head then it came across? Or are you just a dhead in general? Edited by EnthusiastOwned on Sunday 25th September 10:42
I've received my quote. It's as expected really. At this point I don't want to divulge figures as I've had that frank conversation with the insurers. I've asked for payment in lieu or the other option is repair, my time and costs, their time, their expenses, engineer expenses plus hire car costs - Which'll add a couple of grand, at least. They sounded eager at the prospect. Fingers crossed.
I'm taking a big risk but I want to put this to bed now. If they agree my options are repair in my own time, keep the car and deal with it later or trade in. Repair comes with risk as there is no guarantee it'll be any better (more likely to be worse). Keeping and dealing with at a later date is a risk as poor bodywork deteriorates over time (in my experience). Trade in will bite me due to equity and a very poor valuation, but it's one known hit and I start fresh - Seems like the best option to me. Cut and run effectively.
I've been to a few dealers looking at trade in's to assess viability and the valuation for my car is, well, eye watering. The payment in lieu I've asked for will just about get me out of this car, depending where I go; but either way I'm going to have to negotiate the value which'll put me in a weak position when negotiating a deal on the new car. It's going to cost me what ever solution I find.
I was tempted with a Golf R as the deals at the moment are insane, but the whole experience has really put me off the VW Group - Their network is st an they have no power over them. Sad, as I've been a VAG fanboy since I was a kid. I'm off to BMW today to see what they can do for me, I think I'll wear my Havaianas; people seem to like them
I'm taking a big risk but I want to put this to bed now. If they agree my options are repair in my own time, keep the car and deal with it later or trade in. Repair comes with risk as there is no guarantee it'll be any better (more likely to be worse). Keeping and dealing with at a later date is a risk as poor bodywork deteriorates over time (in my experience). Trade in will bite me due to equity and a very poor valuation, but it's one known hit and I start fresh - Seems like the best option to me. Cut and run effectively.
I've been to a few dealers looking at trade in's to assess viability and the valuation for my car is, well, eye watering. The payment in lieu I've asked for will just about get me out of this car, depending where I go; but either way I'm going to have to negotiate the value which'll put me in a weak position when negotiating a deal on the new car. It's going to cost me what ever solution I find.
I was tempted with a Golf R as the deals at the moment are insane, but the whole experience has really put me off the VW Group - Their network is s
t an they have no power over them. Sad, as I've been a VAG fanboy since I was a kid. I'm off to BMW today to see what they can do for me, I think I'll wear my Havaianas; people seem to like them red_slr said:
Personally I would say 90% of that could be sorted out by a good detailer, wet sanding, 3 full days for a skilled detailer would probably cost a heck of a lot less than a full respray also.
The pin holes and debris under the paint not really possible but minor enough IMHO.
The rest of it, should be possible to fix without any more paint.
The lip on the bonnet might also be a pain to sort. If the detailer knows a skilled smart repair guy you might be able to sort a few more of the issues at the same time.
Also, if it makes you feel any better there are almost always signs of a respray no matter how good the body shop is. There are shops who will do the perfect job but you are looking at £10k+.
I think a detailer will get the majority looking nice, I really do. If i'm honest though, i'm not comfortable for a car which is less than a year old to have paint which has been sanded and polished to an inch of it's life. In a years time any scratch, swirl or mark needing a polish is going to be very hard to remove without burning through. It feels like a cover up to me. The pin holes and debris under the paint not really possible but minor enough IMHO.
The rest of it, should be possible to fix without any more paint.
The lip on the bonnet might also be a pain to sort. If the detailer knows a skilled smart repair guy you might be able to sort a few more of the issues at the same time.
Also, if it makes you feel any better there are almost always signs of a respray no matter how good the body shop is. There are shops who will do the perfect job but you are looking at £10k+.
Bit of an update.
I've still not had a response, per se. They needed to have an internal discussion with the original repairers around who will be paying for the new work, in essence the insurance company does not want to pay out to for two repairers. Not sure how this is my issue, but there you go. But it sounds like higher level conversations are starting to happen.
I've pretty much tagged one chap in the department i'm dealing with - He's the only one who calls back when he says he will and actually makes things happen, although he has very little authority. Speaking with anyone higher up has been impossible.
I gave them a week to decide with whats gong on, otherwise I would forward an invoice for my costs. Just trying to push a fast resolution, if anything. Deadline has been and gone so I'll be submitting my costs this weekend, I don't feel like I have any other choice and I don't expect them to pay up; but it's certainly something for them to digest. It's pushing £1k so far. 40 hours, 330 mile and about 500 minutes talk time. Stupid.
The news today is that the insurance company internal engineers and original repairers are disputing the work required as highlighted by the bodyshop and independent engineer they organised. They don't believe the car needs a full respray and want to come view the car for inspection. I'm uncomfortable with this as I can't help but feel they want to come and nit pick to reduce costs. 1) We have a professional independent report, of their instruction. 2) The engineer works for the insurance company, conflict of interest and bias. 3) this is going to delay things once again. 4) Putting restrictions in place on work allowed to be done will not only make it even harder to find a willing bodyshop, but will only increase the risk of further issues; which may I add will be my responsibility being my bodyshop of choice.
I'm feeling telling them no and they should honour the independent report, at a push i'll get my own report. It all feels too little, too late and they should now be considering how this is affecting me. Being blunt, fk their costs; I've been amicable and they've had their chances. Just fix my bloody car to how it was before, give me the funds to do so myself or write it off.
I can see this going to court.
I've still not had a response, per se. They needed to have an internal discussion with the original repairers around who will be paying for the new work, in essence the insurance company does not want to pay out to for two repairers. Not sure how this is my issue, but there you go. But it sounds like higher level conversations are starting to happen.
I've pretty much tagged one chap in the department i'm dealing with - He's the only one who calls back when he says he will and actually makes things happen, although he has very little authority. Speaking with anyone higher up has been impossible.
I gave them a week to decide with whats gong on, otherwise I would forward an invoice for my costs. Just trying to push a fast resolution, if anything. Deadline has been and gone so I'll be submitting my costs this weekend, I don't feel like I have any other choice and I don't expect them to pay up; but it's certainly something for them to digest. It's pushing £1k so far. 40 hours, 330 mile and about 500 minutes talk time. Stupid.
The news today is that the insurance company internal engineers and original repairers are disputing the work required as highlighted by the bodyshop and independent engineer they organised. They don't believe the car needs a full respray and want to come view the car for inspection. I'm uncomfortable with this as I can't help but feel they want to come and nit pick to reduce costs. 1) We have a professional independent report, of their instruction. 2) The engineer works for the insurance company, conflict of interest and bias. 3) this is going to delay things once again. 4) Putting restrictions in place on work allowed to be done will not only make it even harder to find a willing bodyshop, but will only increase the risk of further issues; which may I add will be my responsibility being my bodyshop of choice.
I'm feeling telling them no and they should honour the independent report, at a push i'll get my own report. It all feels too little, too late and they should now be considering how this is affecting me. Being blunt, f
k their costs; I've been amicable and they've had their chances. Just fix my bloody car to how it was before, give me the funds to do so myself or write it off.I can see this going to court.
Blue Oval84 said:
In all honesty, burning through the paint is a lot harder than you may expect. I did a detailing training day and it took AGES with the polisher to burn through, and we were trying!
But agree, the job should be done to a good standard, and then finished with a light polish by a detailer if you want it perfect.
Yeah it is, I've done a course too. Modern paint is very thin compared to an old banger though. With the amount of correction required I have my reservations. I'm with you the job should be done to a good standard. But agree, the job should be done to a good standard, and then finished with a light polish by a detailer if you want it perfect.
Ok, now i'm pissed.
After being told countless times over the past few weeks by the claim department there is nothing they can do, with no further information; they are awaiting their internal engineers to make a decision. I've been led to believe this engineer and the original repairer are disputing the independent report and bodyshop quote and want to view the car to verify the work required themselves. I've been told they want to reduce the amount of work (I believe costs).
I've been waiting for a phone call from the internal engineers for over a week so I can discuss, with the belief this engineer holds the power to make a decision and I could put forward my case.
I finally got that phone call this morning and the internal engineer knows very little, he works from home, he hasn't really seen the report and has only been told by the claims department to come view the car to verify, where he'll then pass on his report to the original repairers who may then want to come view themselves. He works direct for the insurers and I explained there is a huge conflict of interest here and they should go by the independent report, that's what it's for. If required I'll get a second independent report. He said no problem and that he'll report back to the claims department.
What. The. fk. I can't tell if they are purposefully wasting my time or their processes are just long winded without the customer in mind.
At the same time my claim handler is out of office this week and only back on Friday. I can't speak with anyone else. Are they taking the piss?
I'm ready to put in a a Section 152 (Road Traffic Act 1988) notice and go small claims court. Any advice is welcome.
After being told countless times over the past few weeks by the claim department there is nothing they can do, with no further information; they are awaiting their internal engineers to make a decision. I've been led to believe this engineer and the original repairer are disputing the independent report and bodyshop quote and want to view the car to verify the work required themselves. I've been told they want to reduce the amount of work (I believe costs).
I've been waiting for a phone call from the internal engineers for over a week so I can discuss, with the belief this engineer holds the power to make a decision and I could put forward my case.
I finally got that phone call this morning and the internal engineer knows very little, he works from home, he hasn't really seen the report and has only been told by the claims department to come view the car to verify, where he'll then pass on his report to the original repairers who may then want to come view themselves. He works direct for the insurers and I explained there is a huge conflict of interest here and they should go by the independent report, that's what it's for. If required I'll get a second independent report. He said no problem and that he'll report back to the claims department.
What. The. f
k. I can't tell if they are purposefully wasting my time or their processes are just long winded without the customer in mind.At the same time my claim handler is out of office this week and only back on Friday. I can't speak with anyone else. Are they taking the piss?
I'm ready to put in a a Section 152 (Road Traffic Act 1988) notice and go small claims court. Any advice is welcome.
Vaud said:
Have your raised a formal complaint to the insurer?
If so, and you are unsatisfied, then try:
A short, polite, factual email to the CEO outlining the points and crucially, the rectification that you seek
Then ombudsman.
Then court.
Formal complaint was raised on my behalf around the 12th July (after the 2nd failed repair). It's been a complaint ever since. If so, and you are unsatisfied, then try:
A short, polite, factual email to the CEO outlining the points and crucially, the rectification that you seek
Then ombudsman.
Then court.
Good idea with the CEO e-mail. At the least the courts will see I've tried every avenue. I've found a CEO e-mail online, not sure it's correct; but I can try.
Ombudsman isn't worth the time and hassle. Usually a minimum of 3 months and in my experience, useless resolve.
anniesdad said:
Hi Rich, this is about par for the course I'm afraid. You've done the right thing in insisting it's an independent engineer that provides a "ruling" not surprised the insurers want to use one of their own employees. 
They'll always try and penny pinch especially where the customer isn't one of their own. Usual complaints rules don't apply.
If I were you I would contact the third party who actually caused the damage and threaten them personally with court proceedings (for the rectification work) explaining why you are contacting them and that you are not prepared to deal with their insurer any more as they are leading you a merry dance. They will be outraged (hopefully) and will be straight on to their insurer. Who will in turn get on to you. Try it, we use it often as a tactic to get resolution. If you don't get anywhere issue a money claim against the third party who will bring their insurers in to it. I think it's important that the courts get to grips with shoddy insurance practice and punish accordingly. What you are claiming for is not unreasonable just "a decent repair please". Often insurers are raised as the shining light and the resolution to all our problems when the reality is somewhat different. We see this a lot. They are purely commercial enterprises interested in their own bottom line.
I always advise against passing the responsibility over to a third party insurer for the reasons you've experienced, not least the lack of support in case things go awry, and not necessarily because I may have a vested interest in doing the opposite of what the insurers might like you, me and everybody else to do.
Thanks for this, makes me feel a little better. I have the other drivers details so I could have a frank conversation with him. Feel pretty bad about having to drag him into it though. Can I not claim direct against the 3rd party insurers rather than the driver? Who do I put the Section 152 notice to?They'll always try and penny pinch especially where the customer isn't one of their own. Usual complaints rules don't apply.
If I were you I would contact the third party who actually caused the damage and threaten them personally with court proceedings (for the rectification work) explaining why you are contacting them and that you are not prepared to deal with their insurer any more as they are leading you a merry dance. They will be outraged (hopefully) and will be straight on to their insurer. Who will in turn get on to you. Try it, we use it often as a tactic to get resolution. If you don't get anywhere issue a money claim against the third party who will bring their insurers in to it. I think it's important that the courts get to grips with shoddy insurance practice and punish accordingly. What you are claiming for is not unreasonable just "a decent repair please". Often insurers are raised as the shining light and the resolution to all our problems when the reality is somewhat different. We see this a lot. They are purely commercial enterprises interested in their own bottom line.
I always advise against passing the responsibility over to a third party insurer for the reasons you've experienced, not least the lack of support in case things go awry, and not necessarily because I may have a vested interest in doing the opposite of what the insurers might like you, me and everybody else to do.
anniesdad said:
By the way Rich I'm right in saying that the car was repaired by Fix Auto's a non-Seat approved repairer? Correct?...
You'll be suing for a full respray (whatever the estimate of repair cost is that you have obtained), your time, replacement hire whilst the car is being resprayed and any other direct expenses you can think of. I'd get together an estimate of that cost by getting an online quote off a local reputable hire company (make sure you get a quote to fully protect yourself with all the addons to reduce your excess liability to £zero).
I really don't think the insurers will want this going to court but without the threat or receipt of an actual court summons I'm afraid they will lead you a merry dance.
The car firstly went to Fix Auto Sutton is Ashfield which was not SEAT approved - I caught this quickly enough and the car was transferred to Fix Auto Loughborough who are SEAT approved. Fix Auto Loughborough competed all repairs to date. The insurers have confirmed it is their appointed bodyshop and responsibility.You'll be suing for a full respray (whatever the estimate of repair cost is that you have obtained), your time, replacement hire whilst the car is being resprayed and any other direct expenses you can think of. I'd get together an estimate of that cost by getting an online quote off a local reputable hire company (make sure you get a quote to fully protect yourself with all the addons to reduce your excess liability to £zero).
I really don't think the insurers will want this going to court but without the threat or receipt of an actual court summons I'm afraid they will lead you a merry dance.
Edited by anniesdad on Wednesday 5th October 14:11
I have already submitted costs to date. 60+ hours, nearly 500 minutes talk time and 350 miles in travel so far. Calculated at £19 per hour (I believe this is the flat litigant costs as I can't calculate my hourly rate), £0.35 per minute and £0.45 per mile.
I have the bodyshop quote in writing. But I need to get hire car costs. I'll have to figure out how long I'll need the car for. Or could I get the hire car costs via the bodyshop?
edo said:
^ listen to this man.
You need to get stty with them now. Decline their offer to send yet another (biased) assessor. Tell them they have 24 hours to confirm they will be paying you the total (as above) to get it sorted or you will be starting legal proceedings. Remind them this accident was their clients accident, not yours.
I have declined the offer, on more than one occasion. The last independent engineer was truly independent (as far as I could tell). The bodyshop quote I have received is derived from a conversation between this independent engineer and the bodyshop, my main involvement was supplying the car for viewing. Without a doubt the independent engineer thinks the car needs a lot of work - during this visit he even said the bodyshop who takes the work on will likely want to full respray. You need to get s
tty with them now. Decline their offer to send yet another (biased) assessor. Tell them they have 24 hours to confirm they will be paying you the total (as above) to get it sorted or you will be starting legal proceedings. Remind them this accident was their clients accident, not yours.I think my next steps are, e-mail to CEO and Claims Director. Speak with the driver of the other car. Advise of impending proceedings. Then court.
edo said:
Find their twitter account and message them. They dont like the publicity. something along the lines of their poor customer service x months messed about, 3 botched repairs etc etc.
You need to be on the phone asking to speak to the head of customer service. You're being too nice and they are hoping you'll get bored and give up.
Great idea. But I rarely use twitter so it's not really effective in my case. Would have been great as I know they just tweeted that Fix Auto have won some award. You need to be on the phone asking to speak to the head of customer service. You're being too nice and they are hoping you'll get bored and give up.
I've tried and tried, the only opportunity I've been given was a name of someone with authority, I called them for days and was ignored every time. It was clear the person in question was refusing to speak with me (transfer times were suspiciously longer than normal and when the original call handler came back to me they were always flustered).
It's the reason why I'm thinking court is the only way.
saaby93 said:
Remind me again if this quote is from SEAT approved or somewhere else?
Do SEAT have engineers (sic) that come out and inspect?
This new quote is from a SEAT Approved garage who is also a main dealer (the repair was from SEAT approved bodyshop who is independent to the dealer network). Do SEAT have engineers (sic) that come out and inspect?
SEAT have no authority really as their dealers et al are all independent from SEAT UK and the SEAT network all operate independently of each other. So my issue is with Fix Auto, not the SEAT network. All SEAT can do is complain on my behalf to Fix Auto but have no real power - Their only power is that they'll log issues like this and take into account when it comes to renew the garage approved status. Useless.
anniesdad said:
Rich,
As it's the other party's fault that put you in this mess, your initial claim is against him to rectify the problem. He in turn can bring in his liability insurers to indemnify him against your claim. In practice most claimant's circumvent the third party and go straight to the indemnifying insurers to resolve their claim as the insurer is more likely to have the financial capability to resolve the issue. I'm afraid the other party involved himself the minute he left his handbrake off. If you were to issue against him he would be instructed to pass the court documentation to his insurers (you may even wish to suggest to him that he does this). They are obliged to deal with it. That's what you want really. You don't want him satisfying your claim, you want his insurers to do that. The insurers will not want you to continue an action against their policyholder. Imagine you securing a CCJ against their policyholder when he is fully indemnified for what happened...
It's a means to an end. By all means go through the motions and you may in the first instance wish to demand the cost from him and confirm impending court action, so that he can pass this correspondence off to his insurers to see your intent.
For anticipated hire car costs get an estimate of the length of time the car will be off the road and get an online quote but I would say add on another weeks hire at least as a contingency.
S
Ok, brilliant. You are REALLY helping me out here, I can't thank you enough. As it's the other party's fault that put you in this mess, your initial claim is against him to rectify the problem. He in turn can bring in his liability insurers to indemnify him against your claim. In practice most claimant's circumvent the third party and go straight to the indemnifying insurers to resolve their claim as the insurer is more likely to have the financial capability to resolve the issue. I'm afraid the other party involved himself the minute he left his handbrake off. If you were to issue against him he would be instructed to pass the court documentation to his insurers (you may even wish to suggest to him that he does this). They are obliged to deal with it. That's what you want really. You don't want him satisfying your claim, you want his insurers to do that. The insurers will not want you to continue an action against their policyholder. Imagine you securing a CCJ against their policyholder when he is fully indemnified for what happened...
It's a means to an end. By all means go through the motions and you may in the first instance wish to demand the cost from him and confirm impending court action, so that he can pass this correspondence off to his insurers to see your intent.
For anticipated hire car costs get an estimate of the length of time the car will be off the road and get an online quote but I would say add on another weeks hire at least as a contingency.
S
I have spoken with the other driver this morning, turns out I know of him (he owns a coffee shop I use!). Real nice chap and I've explained I'm about to go legal so covering all bases before I do. I've explained to him my situation and asked him to get onto his insurers. He agrees it's not good enough and will push from his end.
I think if I do go legal i'll explain to him in person what's what before I do - He's been amicable and very accommodating so far, I'm obliged to do the same - No point being an ass about it all. If it turns nasty, so be it, but until it does.
I think at least 2-3 weeks work for a full respray. I'll check.
Thanks again.
DottyMR2 said:
I can only sympathise with you, I've been arsed about by insurance companies and still ended up about £1k out of pocket after I got t bones on a roundabout and the other driver played silly buggers. Took 11 months to get repairs started, court case to recover costs and I had to pay some of the repairs myself after a terrible job by the bodyshop and the settlement figure coming up short of repairs after the insurance took their "cut" (for what I have no idea, they took it at source after the court ruling).
They are lying, thieving bd and don't trust them as far as you can throw them. Watch out for the insurance company engineer, be present when he inspects ideally. The one on my claim apparently inspected my car and found the repairs to be "excessive". Thing is, he never even viewed the car, just wrote up the report the insurance company wanted. One the date he apparently inspected it, it was a Sunday. My car (in a garage of my choice) was locked inside the unit and up on a lift 10ft in the air. The garage said they hadn't ever let anyone in so he either broke in to do it or is lying.
Hope you get it sorted soon, they'll try and screw you over at every turn. Shocking that this is a legal requirement yet run by private companies who look to scam people at every opportunity.
Hmm, that worries me. I've refused him viewing. But I suppose nothing stopping him just turning up to look. They are lying, thieving b
d and don't trust them as far as you can throw them. Watch out for the insurance company engineer, be present when he inspects ideally. The one on my claim apparently inspected my car and found the repairs to be "excessive". Thing is, he never even viewed the car, just wrote up the report the insurance company wanted. One the date he apparently inspected it, it was a Sunday. My car (in a garage of my choice) was locked inside the unit and up on a lift 10ft in the air. The garage said they hadn't ever let anyone in so he either broke in to do it or is lying.Hope you get it sorted soon, they'll try and screw you over at every turn. Shocking that this is a legal requirement yet run by private companies who look to scam people at every opportunity.
anniesdad said:
Absolutely, get him on side. He needs to understand it's procedural, he might be the key to you resolving this. Trust me his insurers won't want him involved causing them nuisance but the more heat they feel the better for you.
Sue for 4 weeks hire to be on the safe side you can always return any surplus money that you are awarded.
Ok, I'll get x4 weeks costs to be safe. The bodyshop did say 2-3 weeks work. Sue for 4 weeks hire to be on the safe side you can always return any surplus money that you are awarded.
Another question regarding costs. I know what costs to date I have (time, phone calls and mileage), but what about expected costs - Surely I'll have costs during the claim process? Do I estimate or put in after? Do I take it on the chin? I'm not trying to take the piss by the way, only want what's due.
Also, I've spoke to the bodyshop and asked for the quote to be amended as it was missing the damaged windscreen seals. He's added and sent the new quote, but he did mention anything smaller can be added as and when - What happens if halfway through the work the cost balloons? Is that the risk I take?
Finally, if I notify section 152 to the other driver, does that mean I have to issue court proceedings to him (if it gets that far?)
saaby93 said:
So it doesnt 'get personal' you're sometimes better of trying to get a helpful fellow involved to try to sort it all out on your behalf
Yep, that's my thought too. I can just forsee this is going to get messy - Not everyone likes to play ball. Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff