Are todays sports cars just too good??

[zakelwe]

Do people really read top gear magazine?

That's all the problem there in a nutshell, in the past too much Jeremy going Whorra whilst his jowels push up against his face.

And that's just him f**king some bimbo before he got his super injunction out so we can't read about him.



Any car that is fun to drive is a hoot, problem is tyres are so good nowadays and so wide that you go from the fun territory to the brave category, either ditch or police wise .. which is no fun.

I can imagine the sports car in 3 years time coming with a special box on the web configurator saying "wet roundabouts x10 per year £300"

just so you can undo all the boffins.

By 2020 the only fun you can have in a car will actually be the hire car the journo's drive to the launch of the latest and greatest.

Cheap, simple, fun, loud, ragging.

Considering the penchant for niche vehicles all the manufacturers have nowadays the list of attributes I stuck above should surely be a niche in itself?

Andy

[Altrezia]

This is why Elises are so good - slow in real terms, but mega grin factor.

[Toro Rosso]

marcosgt said:

So how does the Mondeo fit in?

I'm sure 99.9999% of people (even here) would find the 458, Adventcalendar or any other super car awesome to drive, but they're mostly rather huge and not really very usable on B roads where something like an MX5, Elise or maybe a 911 could really be made to hustle.

On the other hand, whilst Dario might be able to get the most out of an F40, I suspect that same 99.9999% would be faster A-B in a 458.

If anyone cares to make available a selection of today's supercars and some top 80s ones I'm quite happy to take a day off work to pop along and compare them and then make my findings available

I'd love an F40, but I can't think of a single current supercar I'd actually WANT to own. If I won the lottery, I'd stick an F40 in my garage for fun and get something like a BMW M3 or a Maserati Gran Turismo.


M.

Edited by marcosgt on Thursday 19th May 11:54

Almost word for word what I would have said. That car combo would see me happy.

[Streetrod]

zakelwe said:

Do people really read top gear magazine?



Andy

To be honest it was the only new magazine that I had not already read and I love to read over my early morning coffee.

But my statements were not just based on something I read but also on my own experiences of driving a number of the modern super cars including the 458. Great car that it is I have been critical of how detached the driver is because of the huge computing power that is employed to keep the thing on the road and out of the nearest hedge.

[ROOODBOY]

I would agree with the thread title.

I have done quite a lot of the 'driving experience' days, as birthday and Xmas presents for the last several years, so I've had breif drives of quite a few high end cars now.

My most recent was a Nissan GT-R.
It was an amazing machine technically, I admire Nissan's acheivment with it, the performance was amazing. But I still don't want one.
As I shifted up and down the gearbox, or powered out of a corner in it, I kind of felt like I was cheating, like the car was doing all the work, it just didn't make me feel like I'd DRIVEN it.

Give me a 1980's 911 any day!

[Streetrod]

ROOODBOY said:

I would agree with the thread title.

I have done quite a lot of the 'driving experience' days, as birthday and Xmas presents for the last several years, so I've had breif drives of quite a few high end cars now.

My most recent was a Nissan GT-R.
It was an amazing machine technically, I admire Nissan's acheivment with it, the performance was amazing. But I still don't want one.
As I shifted up and down the gearbox, or powered out of a corner in it, I kind of felt like I was cheating, like the car was doing all the work, it just didn't make me feel like I'd DRIVEN it.

Give me a 1980's 911 any day!

I had the same experience with a the 458

[otolith]

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

[rhinochopig]

[quote=otolith]Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

Sorry old boy I cannot accept your surrender, I simply don't have the room - I'm assuming that's what you said as I can't read French.

[otolith]

rhinochopig said:

otolith said:

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

Sorry old boy I cannot accept your surrender, I simply don't have the room - I'm assuming that's what you said as I can't read French.

French surrender would be a subset of the meanings.

[davidf4]

Many modern Super cars are a nonsense outside of use in motorsport.

They are unattainable for most of us because of price and production numbers, and many of the extreme examples are too powerful to fully exploit safely on the road by all but the best drivers.
This relegates a lot of the ‘road going’ versions to being track toy curiosities and posing mobiles for the rich and famous, or simply museum exhibits in a collection.

They all seem to look more or less the same, and it’s not a particularly attractive look compared to many sports cars gone by. So they’re often not even desirable as an objet d'art.

Every time I see a story about another 500BHP + car, costing hundreds of thousands of pounds my heart sinks. It holds absolutely no interest for me. I can never afford to own it, and wouldn’t want to anyway, since its exotic nature will make it a pain in the ain to keep and run in the real world. So it can do 200 miles an hour. Whoop-de-do. But why would I need that ability on all but a run way?

Why does a sports car need to be so fast and powerful anyway and why does it need to be made of such expensive materials? What is it actually competing with on the road in reality? It’s just a load of willy waving w@nkery to appear best on paper isn’t it? I suppose the figures help sell to the insecure millionaire that needs the biggest numbers to win at top trumps. But car bores aside, who else really gives a chuff about any of that to that degree?

When I see a sports car news story, why can’t it more of the time be about a good looking, quick, fine handling and affordable car that I can aspire to own and use? Something that has relevance to me as a driver. Even Lotus appear to be moving upmarket. I’m not looking for a status symbol. I want a fun, useable car.

What’s wrong with medium powered, but lighter cars that are actually affordable to own and operate with a more modest budget? I don’t need carbon fibre, titanium, and gold foil heat shields. Just strip out unessential heavy crap to save weight and maximise performance that way. Sports cars by definition are meant to be lean and focused after all.

Make super cars by all means…but please don’t forget the actual sports cars!

Just my two penneth…I do enjoy a good rant.

[otolith]

davidf4 said:

Just strip out unessential heavy crap to save weight and maximise performance that way.

I don't think the weight in modern cars is in the crap which can be stripped out so much as in the sheer size of them and the robustness of construction necessary to meet modern consumer demand for not dying in accidents and high levels of refinement.

[yellowbentines]

In short, yes. I had a loan of a friends 911 Turbo (997) for a weekend, and couldn't get close to exploiting the full potential of it on public roads - it was far too civilised for a fun car for my liking, and I got bored of doing easy overtakes just for the hell of it.

Great car overall, blisteringly fast, 4 seats, lovely noise, superb grip, but ultimately not very much fun.

[Schnellmann]

BarnatosGhost said:

Yes, just as modern racquets have spoilt tennis, and modern balls and drivers haven't helped golf, technology (and especially tyres and DSC-type technology) is spoiling driving.

The pace of a modern hot hatch across country is phenomenal, without breaking sweat, and the resulting crashes are enormous. To feel 'involved' you have to be going like the clappers, but whilst cars have got so much faster, hedgerows haven't got any lower, and tractors haven't got any lighter, so visibility and margins of safety have got worse.

Disagree on your first point: for the average player modern racquets have made tennis more interesting. At least in my opinion. Even for professional tennis, if you have seen recent battles between Nadal and Djokovic or Federer playing at his prime, I'm not sure it holds true. Of course, looking at the state of the women's game you may have a point.

Fully agree with your second paragraph though. Modern cars are just too capable and too fast. I recently drove a Ferrari 360. It was quite good fun but I found myself going far too quickly and it was all very easy. I haven't driven a 458 but it is so much more capable you probably need to be driving well into three figures, even on country roads, to get any sense of speed. Which is great until you crash or get caught.

Strangely, the older I get the more interested I get in even older cars and stuff that I wouldn't have considered 20 years ago (like old English sports cars), when I was more obsessed about out and out performance, turn my head.

[crofty1984]

ROOODBOY said:

I would agree with the thread title.

I have done quite a lot of the 'driving experience' days, as birthday and Xmas presents for the last several years, so I've had breif drives of quite a few high end cars now.

My most recent was a Nissan GT-R.
It was an amazing machine technically, I admire Nissan's acheivment with it, the performance was amazing. But I still don't want one.
As I shifted up and down the gearbox, or powered out of a corner in it, I kind of felt like I was cheating, like the car was doing all the work, it just didn't make me feel like I'd DRIVEN it.

Give me a 1980's 911 any day!

I miss my 1980's 911.

Far better than the 2001 1.2 8v clio I'm driving now. But then again, most things are.

[clonmult]

Schnellmann said:

Strangely, the older I get the more interested I get in even older cars and stuff that I wouldn't have considered 20 years ago (like old English sports cars), when I was more obsessed about out and out performance, turn my head.

My feelings to the nth degree.

I remember driving friends cars back at sixth form, Triumph Spitfires, Alfa 33, MG Bs, etc. At the time I enjoyed them but figured they were never the kind of cars that I would ever want to own.

But now I love the idea of having a Spitfire or MG B, maybe an original Mini Cooper. Something that I could easily work on myself with a box of spanners and drivers, and not need a PC to diagnose engine problems.

Over the last few years I've driven/owned a few generations of 3 series - E30 318i, E36 318iS, E36 325, E46 318Ci, and an E92 335d. This has really shown me how the cars have changed. The E30 felt totally connected to the road. The E36's were not quite as connected, but still conveyed plenty of feeling.

The E46 was starting to take it a little too far, and for me the 335d is just way too cold and clinical, technically amazing, but it stirs absolutely no feelings in me.

Apparently its all in the name of "progress".

[Twincam16]

clonmult said:

Schnellmann said:

Strangely, the older I get the more interested I get in even older cars and stuff that I wouldn't have considered 20 years ago (like old English sports cars), when I was more obsessed about out and out performance, turn my head.

My feelings to the nth degree.

I remember driving friends cars back at sixth form, Triumph Spitfires, Alfa 33, MG Bs, etc. At the time I enjoyed them but figured they were never the kind of cars that I would ever want to own.

But now I love the idea of having a Spitfire or MG B, maybe an original Mini Cooper. Something that I could easily work on myself with a box of spanners and drivers, and not need a PC to diagnose engine problems.

Over the last few years I've driven/owned a few generations of 3 series - E30 318i, E36 318iS, E36 325, E46 318Ci, and an E92 335d. This has really shown me how the cars have changed. The E30 felt totally connected to the road. The E36's were not quite as connected, but still conveyed plenty of feeling.

The E46 was starting to take it a little too far, and for me the 335d is just way too cold and clinical, technically amazing, but it stirs absolutely no feelings in me.

Apparently its all in the name of "progress".

and also I feel validates a notion I've had for quite a while now that a lot of things about modern cars aren't the way they are because people have asked for them, but rather the engineers have invented, the legislators have legislated, and people are told they want for their own good.

I do often wonder quite how cheap it would be possible to make a basic car these days if all the various pieces of technology deemed 'essential' weren't necessary.

[clonmult]

Twincam16 said:

and also I feel validates a notion I've had for quite a while now that a lot of things about modern cars aren't the way they are because people have asked for them, but rather the engineers have invented, the legislators have legislated, and people are told they want for their own good.

I do often wonder quite how cheap it would be possible to make a basic car these days if all the various pieces of technology deemed 'essential' weren't necessary.

Another experience thats similar - when I had the E36, I remember following a mate in his Impreza WRX through some twisty country lanes. No question as to the WRX being massively faster, but when we stopped, I was the one with the huge smile on my face. And iirc I used about half the fuel as well, so I had more fun, for less money. Bargain!

Some people will ask for such things, they want a thousand and one creature comforts. Electric powered thingies all around the cabin.

27 zone climate control that can independently adjust the temperature of the air going to your groin, left ear and elbow. Rear facing radar systems that can allow you to precisely park the car in exactly the wrong place.

When a friend had his car in for repairs, he had one of the new Vauxhall Insignias. What got me was that the steering wheel lit up like the bleedin' Blackpool prom in the middle of the illuminations. It had more controls on the wheel than I've got across the whole interior of my A6. Utterly ridiculous.

[Streetrod]

In this weeks AutoCar Steve Sutcliffe has written an artical about his blueprint for the perfect drivers car and as ever its a good read from Steve.

Some of the hightlights are:
Price £35k
1000kg
VW V6 Turbo diesel (not sure about that)
6 speed DSG gearbox (not sure about that either)
Mid engine
245 BHP
0-60 4.5 sec
0-100 10 sec
147mph top speed
352 ft lb
Double wishbone suspension all round

Even the rendering looks interesting

[rhinochopig]

Streetrod said:

In this weeks AutoCar Steve Sutcliffe has written an artical about his blueprint for the perfect drivers car and as ever its a good read from Steve.

Some of the hightlights are:
Price £35k
1000kg
VW V6 Turbo diesel (not sure about that)
6 speed DSG gearbox (not sure about that either)
Mid engine
245 BHP
0-60 4.5 sec
0-100 10 sec
147mph top speed
352 ft lb
Double wishbone suspension all round

Even the rendering looks interesting

Mine (for a drivers car) would be:

~ 800kg
Front engine RWD
100-120bhp from a 45mpg engine
185 width tyres max
Geared for acceleration - Top speed no more than 110 mph
Agree on the suspension design - set up for b roads though
Spartan interior, but a hardtop design.
£15k

Why, because at that power to traction ratio you'd have a delightfully mobile rear which could be enjoyed at sensible speeds. It would also cost beans to run.

[ewenm]

I'd keep it simple and go manual box, front-engine. Mid-engine limits the practicality so much that it's rare for people to have them as an only car.

It's why I reckon that if Ginetta can sort out the G40 roadcar they could be onto an enthusiasts icon.