Do people *really* want drivers' cars?
Discussion
Mr Gear said:
300bhp/ton said:
wow talk about missing the point. Neither of the cars you've posted look to be road legal and both will have had HUGE, sorry did I say H U G E sums of money spent on them to get to that level.
Japanese performance cars on the whole gained their notoriety because they where turbocharged and often sold for modest money. This meant a low cost tweak after purchase could significantly increase the HP output. Neither of the points are relevant to the FT-86 at present.
Why argue with me just because you disagreed with something I said in a previous thread?Japanese performance cars on the whole gained their notoriety because they where turbocharged and often sold for modest money. This meant a low cost tweak after purchase could significantly increase the HP output. Neither of the points are relevant to the FT-86 at present.
Mr Gear said:
Both these cars are at the peak of what you can do to them
Not really, at that level of tuning they represent 100% bespoke custom built machines, so have little or no bearing on the production model.Mr Gear said:
but there are thousands of Civic type Rs and RX7s around the country that have been modified to varying degrees. It's what the market for Jap sports cars wants.
Yes, but very few of these where modified at all when sold from new and still under warranty. Modifying may well exist in the UK, albeit to a smaller more modest scale than that of Japan or the USA, but it is generally on old(er), cheaper used cars. Either that or highly expensive ones where money really isn't an issue anyhow (jazzed up RRS's and Porshces for example).Mr Gear said:
Pick up a copy of Japanese Performance and look at the way they have hailed it as the messiah.
Umm ok, but that is proof of what? Nothing.. yes that's correct.Mr Gear said:
That market will lap it up, and the low-ish bhp available from the factory is no barrier to it being popular with people that want to fiddle with it.
In years to come maybe. But why not explain to all of us here, exactly how forgiving Toyota and Subaru will be with their warranties if you start modding say a 2 month old car?excel monkey said:
300bhp/ton said:
I can. The FT-86 isn't exactly a tiny Elise type car, in fact I suspect its very much identical size to the Genesis coupe if you put the tape measure on them.
The RX-8, a similar type of car was also pitched at this market, along with the 1 Series Coupe and at the time the Pontiac Solstice coupe and Saturn Sky.
Behave! The current Mustang and Camaro are both two feet longer than the FT86. They're in a bigger size class. The Solstice and Sky are both better competitors size-wise, although they are only two seaters.The RX-8, a similar type of car was also pitched at this market, along with the 1 Series Coupe and at the time the Pontiac Solstice coupe and Saturn Sky.
Solstice 159 inches
Sky 161 inches
FT86 164 inches
Genesis 182 inches
Mustang 188 inches
Camaro 190 inches
UK market I admit is different, but I suspect a much smaller market.
Rawwr said:
OllieC said:
300bhp/ton said:
The thing is, in the "mass" market there are many who want, or rather 'think' they are petrol heads, but then go out and buy a Golf 
I do hope your wrong.Rawwr said:
You see it as a RWD alternative to a hot hatch, whereas I see it as a 4-seat alternative to a Lotus Exige.
I think it's firmly a hot hatch alternative tbh.I do like the idea of a 4 seater Elise and think the RX-8 could have been just that, had Mazda actually offered a stripped down more focused variant. As it is, I see the RX-8 as a Focus ST alternative and the FT 86 as a Clio 200 alternative.
Mr Gear said:
Basically the size and weight of a Clio. Impressive.
Indeed. If I was in the position to be buying new, I would be very interested in a Toybaru. As I said in the GT-86 thread, in real terms this car is cheaper than the old 200sx was, and about on par with the Rx8 at launch. Even at the £28k price point it doesn't cost much more than a warmed over Golf, while being more practical than a similarily performing MX5. Given the specs, it should be just as affordable to run as a Clio RS or the like. I think as a all round sports coupe, it's a pretty convincing package. If the handling is as good as people are saying it will be, I can imagine it will become a PH classic in 'what car' threads in no time.
I think it depends on your definition of "drivers' car". I think 95% of drivers buy their car predominantly for a combination of white-goods transport and a statement of wealth.
If we consider only people who consider themselves "car enthusiasts" (and assume that Pistonheads is a representative sample), I think the balance shifts slightly, but not as far as you'd think, with the white-goods element falling down the list a bit but the main think that takes its place seems to be straight line speed rather than other elements of how a car drives. Obviously some of us care more about handling and whatnot than speed, but I think we're in a very small minority.
If we consider only people who consider themselves "car enthusiasts" (and assume that Pistonheads is a representative sample), I think the balance shifts slightly, but not as far as you'd think, with the white-goods element falling down the list a bit but the main think that takes its place seems to be straight line speed rather than other elements of how a car drives. Obviously some of us care more about handling and whatnot than speed, but I think we're in a very small minority.
300bhp/ton said:
Japanese performance cars on the whole gained their notoriety because they where turbocharged and often sold for modest money. This meant a low cost tweak after purchase could significantly increase the HP output. Neither of the points are relevant to the FT-86 at present.
Why? You could add a turbo or modify the turbo on this... I don't see your point.300bhp/ton said:
Not really, at that level of tuning they represent 100% bespoke custom built machines, so have little or no bearing on the production model.
Shows what you know about these cars then. Both of the examples I showed use the original engine and chassis. The class rules insist on it.300bhp/ton said:
Yes, but very few of these where modified at all when sold from new and still under warranty. Modifying may well exist in the UK, albeit to a smaller more modest scale than that of Japan or the USA, but it is generally on old(er), cheaper used cars. Either that or highly expensive ones where money really isn't an issue anyhow (jazzed up RRS's and Porshces for example).
Sure, but even old cars were new once.300bhp/ton said:
In years to come maybe. But why not explain to all of us here, exactly how forgiving Toyota and Subaru will be with their warranties if you start modding say a 2 month old car?
As above. Manufacturers have never been keen on honouring warranties on modified cars, but that doesn't stop people doing it, and like I said already, even old cars were new once. Look at the number of modified Civic type Rs, RX8s, MX5s, Subarus etc etc etc you see... sorry, what was your point again?
Codswallop said:
Indeed. If I was in the position to be buying new, I would be very interested in a Toybaru. As I said in the GT-86 thread, in real terms this car is cheaper than the old 200sx was, and about on par with the Rx8 at launch.
I think those real terms are slightly off though.A 200SX was in it's day a high performance car. The s13 was what 6.9 0-60mph and 140mph+ in the very early 1990's. That was pretty much beyond any hot hatch of the era, even the famed MG Maestro Turbo. In fact it really wasn't a million miles away from a Porsche 994 Turbo or a n/a 911 of only a coupe of years prior.
The s14 maintained this stance and even in it's day it was for the most part a performance league above the majority of hot hatch alternatives. So in real terms these cars could justify a higher price than a hot hatch.
The RX-8 might have lacked the performance punch and hasn't it been slated from launch on this pretty much? But it did bring a funky engine to the table, an engine some would pay to have/own on it's own rights. The car was also a very clever design being a 4 door saloon that looked more coupe like than many coupes do.
In today's market and in 'real' terms. The FT 86 doesn't offer the same practicality as the RX-8 and it doesn't have the performance over the hot hatch competition to demand the price.
If it is £28k, then for £25k you could buy a vastly faster SEAT Leon Cupra R, or for around £10,000 less (or over 1/3rd of the price cheaper) a Clio 200 with equal performance.
Codswallop said:
Even at the £28k price point it doesn't cost much more than a warmed over Golf
I find this a very odd comparison. The Golf is well know for being a "premium" hatch and one of the most expensive ways of buying a hot hatch. I don't see how it has any relevance as a comparison really.Codswallop said:
, while being more practical than a similarily performing MX5.
Practical is arguable, as it involves a fitness for purpose. If you only need two seats, then an MX-5 is actually better fit for that purpose. But an MX-5 is still £8,00 - 10,000 cheaper. Which is a huge percentage.Codswallop said:
Given the specs, it should be just as affordable to run as a Clio RS or the like.
How do you figure that?How can you right off £10,000 in terms of purchase price?
Codswallop said:
I think as a all round sports coupe, it's a pretty convincing package. If the handling is as good as people are saying it will be, I can imagine it will become a PH classic in 'what car' threads in no time.
Mr Gear said:
300bhp/ton said:
Japanese performance cars on the whole gained their notoriety because they where turbocharged and often sold for modest money. This meant a low cost tweak after purchase could significantly increase the HP output. Neither of the points are relevant to the FT-86 at present.
Why? You could add a turbo or modify the turbo on this... I don't see your point.This 'affordable' coupe would suddenly be looking quite pricey.
In the US I can see this happening more so, but over here in the UK - next to no chance. Seriously, how many people do you know of that bought an RX-8 new and did something similar to it?
Mr Gear said:
300bhp/ton said:
Not really, at that level of tuning they represent 100% bespoke custom built machines, so have little or no bearing on the production model.
Shows what you know about these cars then. Both of the examples I showed use the original engine and chassis. The class rules insist on it.crank, pistons, rods, head, valves, induction, exhaust... ok the block might if you are lucky be the same. But even then in many cases not.
Mr Gear said:
300bhp/ton said:
Yes, but very few of these where modified at all when sold from new and still under warranty. Modifying may well exist in the UK, albeit to a smaller more modest scale than that of Japan or the USA, but it is generally on old(er), cheaper used cars. Either that or highly expensive ones where money really isn't an issue anyhow (jazzed up RRS's and Porshces for example).
Sure, but even old cars were new once.Mr Gear said:
300bhp/ton said:
In years to come maybe. But why not explain to all of us here, exactly how forgiving Toyota and Subaru will be with their warranties if you start modding say a 2 month old car?
As above. Manufacturers have never been keen on honouring warranties on modified cars, but that doesn't stop people doing it, Maybe you cold prove me wrong though.... please find me from the classifieds, autocar, ebay, where ever these examples:
2 month or newer modified Cayman, either engine change or turbo/supercharger conversion
6 month or under 370z twin turbo
1 month old 500hp Evo
1 year old 135i running different turbos and 450hp+
Or even anything remotely similar, i.e. new or very new and in warranty and heavily modified and in a similar price bracket/market segment to the FT 86..... go on off you go.
Mr Gear said:
and like I said already, even old cars were new once. Look at the number of modified Civic type Rs, RX8s, MX5s, Subarus etc etc etc you see... sorry, what was your point again?
WTF??? What is your point, what does any of this rubbish have to do with Toyota and Subaru selling a brand new car? Edited by 300bhp/ton on Thursday 1st December 10:15
Mr Gear said:
Rawwr said:
St John Smythe said:
I have a mk5 GTI. Does that mean I'm not a petrolhead? Damn.......
Depends. Did you buy it believing it was a balls-out sports car or did you buy it believing it was a hot hatch?
300bhp/ton said:
WTF??? What is your point, what does any of this rubbish have to do with Toyota and Subaru selling a brand new car?
My point quite simply was that 200bhp is not any kind of barrier to it being a good car, and people will modify it if they find that insufficient.This has always been the way with Japanese cars.
At no point have I claimed that they will do this straight from the showroom. That is a ludicrous suggestion that you came up with to try and prove me wrong on a point I never made. Asking me to find cars in the classified ads that don't exist isn't really helping you.
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