Why are executuive cars frequently automatic?
Discussion
martin84 said:
mej023 said:
I have to say I've yet to drive a good auto. Perhaps the Merc will change my mind.
Evrything auto I've driven before has never changed gear when I thought it should. - although maybe
that's an indication that it knows better and I know nothing about when to change up....
Sounds like the common denominator is the squishy bit behind the wheel.Evrything auto I've driven before has never changed gear when I thought it should. - although maybe
that's an indication that it knows better and I know nothing about when to change up....
I had a straight six petrol BMW mated to an auto box and it was lovely. Power delivery was so linear and the gear change so seamless that under moderate acceleration it was almost like having just the one gear!
Now I've got a manual 4-pot diesel BMW... It's a good car but I miss the waft and effortlessness. I'll revert back to auto next time.
For all of you that have not yet experienced a proper auto:
Go out and buy a 80's-90's Jag with 12 months test on it. The 4 litre 6 is best. Auto obviously.
Insurance though a specialist will be a few hundred quid.
And... Waft for a year. It should cost you a grand all in, maximum. The difficulty will be either scrapping or trying to save the Jag after the year is up - large engined auto-wafters are addictive.
Mine was a 500 quid Daimler. Still miss it.
Go out and buy a 80's-90's Jag with 12 months test on it. The 4 litre 6 is best. Auto obviously.
Insurance though a specialist will be a few hundred quid.
And... Waft for a year. It should cost you a grand all in, maximum. The difficulty will be either scrapping or trying to save the Jag after the year is up - large engined auto-wafters are addictive.
Mine was a 500 quid Daimler. Still miss it.
Because anything less than an ideal manual gearchange can introduce a little driveline shudder/shunt/unwanted vibrations into things, which reduces overall refinement. Autos are smoother and generally less perceptible in operation and in a large comfortable saloon, just make infinitely more sense.
How much easier is it as a driver to ensure a smooth experience in something like a Rolls Royce Phantom, complete with a large torquey engine and 3 tonnes of weight (think pulling away, stop start urban driving particularly). Both factors serve to amplify any driveline harshness to the vehicle's occupants. A manual would just be fundamentally wrong in such an implementation, just as a silky smooth torque converter auto would be in an Elise, Caterham or TVR etc.
As a younger man I wondered the same. Then I started driving them (quite literally, my first car was an automatic and yes I did learn and pass my test in a manual) and all became clear. I was glad to lose the largely pointless faff that accompanies a third pedal.
These days I appreciate each in their own ideal environment. Small six-pot RWD coupé in manual and big comfy lazy engined hector with a slushbox. It's the ideal combination for me.
How much easier is it as a driver to ensure a smooth experience in something like a Rolls Royce Phantom, complete with a large torquey engine and 3 tonnes of weight (think pulling away, stop start urban driving particularly). Both factors serve to amplify any driveline harshness to the vehicle's occupants. A manual would just be fundamentally wrong in such an implementation, just as a silky smooth torque converter auto would be in an Elise, Caterham or TVR etc.
As a younger man I wondered the same. Then I started driving them (quite literally, my first car was an automatic and yes I did learn and pass my test in a manual) and all became clear. I was glad to lose the largely pointless faff that accompanies a third pedal.
These days I appreciate each in their own ideal environment. Small six-pot RWD coupé in manual and big comfy lazy engined hector with a slushbox. It's the ideal combination for me.
I think the more miles you do, the more you appreciate having one less thing to do, really dont want a clutch if stuff on motorways day in day out. Also, manuals on bigger engines tend to be a bit truck like, bigger engine, bigger clutch, heavier gears etc, plus they arent as popular so dont get developed, add in the lack of cachet of a manual in an exec, with its tragic resale its no wonder people go for them.
I personally would much rather buy a car with a manual gearbox because I enjoy driving and changing gear myself. I do understand that some people want to "waft" and not change gear, no problem with that at all - everyone is different.
But why do a lot of car companies not even offer a manual gearbox on a number of their cars? The BMW 335d for example, or the new M5, or almost any Mercedes - why can't I have one of them with a manual gearbox if I want one? If you are paying £40k+ for a car, you should at least have the option to have one. And the Audi RS3? Why can't I have that with a manual?
It is really not much to ask!!
But why do a lot of car companies not even offer a manual gearbox on a number of their cars? The BMW 335d for example, or the new M5, or almost any Mercedes - why can't I have one of them with a manual gearbox if I want one? If you are paying £40k+ for a car, you should at least have the option to have one. And the Audi RS3? Why can't I have that with a manual?
It is really not much to ask!!
SD1992 said:
But why do a lot of car companies not even offer a manual gearbox on a number of their cars? The BMW 335d for example, or the new M5, or almost any Mercedes - why can't I have one of them with a manual gearbox if I want one? If you are paying £40k+ for a car, you should at least have the option to have one. And the Audi RS3? Why can't I have that with a manual?
It is really not much to ask!!
Usually because of one of a couple of factors:It is really not much to ask!!
One is that the manufacturer doesn't have a manual gearbox capable of reliably transmitting the torque (such as BMWs bigger diesels, turbo V8s and V12s). The sort of manual gearbox that could transmit it might have been deemed too "agricultural" as a result and not befitting of the premium/luxury car remit.
Another is market demand and placement and cost of development and homologation for the likely number of units sold. When offered, the reality is that new buyers of such cars are content with the auto/automated manual offering. It's the people who want to buy them years later at a fraction of the price who want them with manuals, but manufacturers don't build cars to satisfy used market demand. Look at manual 8 Series for example, most new buyers didn't want them that way, but now most used ones seem to.
There may be other technical or performance reasons why you can't have one. Part of the RS3's marketing value is it's very low 0-62 time, which is only achievable by dint of the gearbox and software employed to achieve it. Would you still buy the "proper" manual with a nominally slower acceleration time?
Most of the cars here in the US are autos. Im sick of it TBH.
My Mercedes 400E, the Jag XJR even my Dodge Ram. the Ram is availiable as a manual but you'll spend an iceage looking for one.
I'm changing my muscle car with alot of effort into a manual six speed.
I sometimes wish the Jag was a manual but I'm not going into all that complication. If nothing else a manual transmission is also much more robust!
My Mercedes 400E, the Jag XJR even my Dodge Ram. the Ram is availiable as a manual but you'll spend an iceage looking for one.
I'm changing my muscle car with alot of effort into a manual six speed.
I sometimes wish the Jag was a manual but I'm not going into all that complication. If nothing else a manual transmission is also much more robust!
Zwolf said:
Because anything less than an ideal manual gearchange can introduce a little driveline shudder/shunt/unwanted vibrations into things, which reduces overall refinement. Autos are smoother and generally less perceptible in operation and in a large comfortable saloon, just make infinitely more sense.
It's definately true that a manual transmission car mated to a big engine is harder to calibrate and the auto is an easier driveline to make smoother but that's a poor excuse- the Porsche 928 GTS with 5.4 litres does ok as does a 5 litre M5.Marquis Rex said:
Zwolf said:
Because anything less than an ideal manual gearchange can introduce a little driveline shudder/shunt/unwanted vibrations into things, which reduces overall refinement. Autos are smoother and generally less perceptible in operation and in a large comfortable saloon, just make infinitely more sense.
It's definately true that a manual transmission car mated to a big engine is harder to calibrate and the auto is an easier driveline to make smoother but that's a poor excuse- the Porsche 928 GTS with 5.4 litres does ok as does a 5 litre M5.Which is something the E39 M5 does not particularly possess IMO, I can't comment upon the 928 having not sampled one, but again - aren't most of them automatic?
Marquis Rex said:
Of course most of them are automatics. That's because that's what sells and it all comes down to business models in the end. That's why Jaguar never released a manual version of the XKR for instance.
I however would still prefer a jerky hard shifting manual than a slush pump.
I do like the vast numbers of PHers that decide something then stick to it like glue.I however would still prefer a jerky hard shifting manual than a slush pump.
You try our manual Defender then our auto 335d then tell me which has the best gearbox...
Marquis Rex said:
Of course most of them are automatics. That's because that's what sells and it all comes down to business models in the end. That's why Jaguar never released a manual version of the XKR for instance.
I however would still prefer a jerky hard shifting manual than a slush pump.
I however would still prefer a jerky hard shifting manual than a slush pump.
Zwolf said:
Market demand and placement and cost of development and homologation for the likely number of units sold.
Absolutely, but you number in a minority that simply isn't worth catering to in the overall scheme of things. So they don't. They did develop one XKR manual so I gather and there is a company out there that can perform the conversion - for a suitable price of course.Just as with the Aston Martin Vanquish, except the company in that instance is AM themselves. How many owners have done so though out of all examples built?
Vladimir said:
There aren't many good ones around (and not many good diesels either) but a decent ZF box is a very useful thing indeed.
I'm not keen on Merc autos.
Aside from the rev counter rising and falling you can't tell when my dads E class is changing gear, and thats with about 210,000 mile on it.I'm not keen on Merc autos.
After owning my D2 A8 with a funtioning but somewhat clunky 4 speed it was a revelation.
Are there some that are better than the mercs then?
If there was an option to have an auto on the company car list I would take it.
I have an E39 6 cylinder BMW with auto tiptronic, bought around 4 years ago just after having major back surgery.. using a clutch was no good at the time
Big exec's are mainly auto as driving a big soft wafted car just does not feel right. When changing gear. Yes its nice having a manual, but boy a good auto is a great place to be...especially in traffic.
My only other auto was a Rover SD1 bought in 1990 at 18!
Big exec's are mainly auto as driving a big soft wafted car just does not feel right. When changing gear. Yes its nice having a manual, but boy a good auto is a great place to be...especially in traffic.
My only other auto was a Rover SD1 bought in 1990 at 18!
Edited by Waynester on Thursday 8th December 19:41
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