'Dangerous' Roads?
Discussion
I would go with:
A road is as dangerous as a drivers approach to it. If you consider a road to be 'dangerous' and you moderate your driving accordingly, the road is no longer dangerous. If a road is sufficiently complex/rough and a driver who maybe is not the best does not moderate their driving to accomodate, then that road becomes dangerous.
It's all very exestential apparently....
A road is as dangerous as a drivers approach to it. If you consider a road to be 'dangerous' and you moderate your driving accordingly, the road is no longer dangerous. If a road is sufficiently complex/rough and a driver who maybe is not the best does not moderate their driving to accomodate, then that road becomes dangerous.
It's all very exestential apparently....
off_again said:
I crashed on a dangerous road!
Council workmen resurfaced a small section of country road incorrectly. Mixed the tarmac incorrectly and ended up with an extremely oily top surface that didnt cure. So it was basically a skid pan smooth surface that with a dash of snow and rain were perfect for black ice. I rolled my car and the council were forced to re-lay the road.
Pretty damn dangerous if you ask me!
your username suggests a history? Council workmen resurfaced a small section of country road incorrectly. Mixed the tarmac incorrectly and ended up with an extremely oily top surface that didnt cure. So it was basically a skid pan smooth surface that with a dash of snow and rain were perfect for black ice. I rolled my car and the council were forced to re-lay the road.
Pretty damn dangerous if you ask me!
When I was driving back from the alps, I took the scenic route as advised by a travelling businessman, and it was a single track road, with a cliff overhang above it, and only a few passing points.
Dangers caused by things not me:
Overhang looked unsafe, unless I'm superman I can't do anything about it
Loads of blind corners-other drivers being unsafe puts me at a risk
Very steep at times, with a full car, and maybe cooked brakes, the sharp corners could be lethal. Obviously a good driver should be able to engine brake and all that, but you could still cook your brakes.
Its the alps. It can be very snowy and icy. I was there in the summer, if it were winter, and I lost traction on ice, even with snow chains, I could have gone over the side of the cliff. I might have only been doing 3 mph.
For the record, if anyone is driving to les deux alpes, take the scenic route, it really is fantastic!
So in response to people saying: "Waah wahhh its always the drivers fault". Go outside more.
Dangers caused by things not me:
Overhang looked unsafe, unless I'm superman I can't do anything about it
Loads of blind corners-other drivers being unsafe puts me at a risk
Very steep at times, with a full car, and maybe cooked brakes, the sharp corners could be lethal. Obviously a good driver should be able to engine brake and all that, but you could still cook your brakes.
Its the alps. It can be very snowy and icy. I was there in the summer, if it were winter, and I lost traction on ice, even with snow chains, I could have gone over the side of the cliff. I might have only been doing 3 mph.
For the record, if anyone is driving to les deux alpes, take the scenic route, it really is fantastic!
So in response to people saying: "Waah wahhh its always the drivers fault". Go outside more.
It is always the driver's fault though. They can always go slower. As the Highway Code says, "Slow Down, and Be Prepared to Stop".
Legal precedent in the UK is that drivers must take the road as they find it, unless there is a certain specific circumstance (as in the slippery tarmac mentioned above).
That doesn't stop roads being dangerous. Unmarked hidden dips, off camber corners, poorly maintained surface, mud from farm vehicles, leaves, confusing road markings, soft verges, obscured visibility due to vegetation very close to the road, broken or missing signs, the list goes on and on.
Legal precedent in the UK is that drivers must take the road as they find it, unless there is a certain specific circumstance (as in the slippery tarmac mentioned above).
That doesn't stop roads being dangerous. Unmarked hidden dips, off camber corners, poorly maintained surface, mud from farm vehicles, leaves, confusing road markings, soft verges, obscured visibility due to vegetation very close to the road, broken or missing signs, the list goes on and on.
DaveH23 said:
When you say road im assuming you mean in the UK for the remainder of this post and not the side of a mountain as the TG team drove down.
How can a piece of tarmac be dangerous?
So roads in the UK can't be dangerous, but roads in other countries can? How does that work if they are just bits of tarmac?How can a piece of tarmac be dangerous?
matthias73 said:
So in response to people saying: "Waah wahhh its always the drivers fault". Go outside more.
Well hopefully several thousand miles of back roads in and around mountains throughout Europe and North Africa on endurance rallies will qualify me enough on the "going outside" scale.Sheer drops without barriers and with few passing places are common. Loose gravel on bends and hairpins constructed from polished stones were some of the more endearing traffic calming features.
I don't recall ever thinking "what a dangerous road". Everything could be dealt with by moderating speed. There's a limit to what you can do about other drivers, but is that the fault of the road or the driver?
One of the participants had their car taken out by a local coming around a limited visibility corner at speed on the wrong side of the road. Hardly the fault of the road. Another ended upside down on the exit of a hairpin corner - still not sure how they managed it but the rest of us negotiated it without problem so blaming the road seems wrong.
If you have to slow to a crawl to negotiate corners then so be it.
I still maintain that there are very few circumstances when a road itself can be labelled dangerous. Drivers on the other hand, that's a very different matter.
thiscocks said:
No road is dangerous. Humans driving wheeled objects on them too fast make the situation dangerous.
Even if you are crawling along a road that is prone to subsidence and it collapses? Still the fault of the driver going too quickly?Ever watched Ice Road Truckers? Would you not say that they are inherently dangerous roads?
off_again said:
I crashed on a dangerous road!
Council workmen resurfaced a small section of country road incorrectly. Mixed the tarmac incorrectly and ended up with an extremely oily top surface that didnt cure. So it was basically a skid pan smooth surface that with a dash of snow and rain were perfect for black ice. I rolled my car and the council were forced to re-lay the road.
Pretty damn dangerous if you ask me!
Did everyone who drove along there roll their car...or just you?Council workmen resurfaced a small section of country road incorrectly. Mixed the tarmac incorrectly and ended up with an extremely oily top surface that didnt cure. So it was basically a skid pan smooth surface that with a dash of snow and rain were perfect for black ice. I rolled my car and the council were forced to re-lay the road.
Pretty damn dangerous if you ask me!
Mr2Mike said:
Even if you are crawling along a road that is prone to subsidence and it collapses? Still the fault of the driver going too quickly?
Ever watched Ice Road Truckers? Would you not say that they are inherently dangerous roads?
But its still because someone is driving a 20 tonne truck on it. If they were on a pony or donkey it would most likely be fine.Ever watched Ice Road Truckers? Would you not say that they are inherently dangerous roads?
jagnet said:
This is why I can't agree that roads such as these that are considered dangerous are anything of the sort. It's drivers hurtling around bends relying on percentages that are the problem.
Yes, but if lots of people run out of talent on a particular bit of road, how would you describe it? "Dangerous" is, as I said, a shorthand for "bit of road where people make more mistakes than usual". But it's easier to say and understand.The Black Flash said:
Yes, but if lots of people run out of talent on a particular bit of road, how would you describe it? "Dangerous" is, as I said, a shorthand for "bit of road where people make more mistakes than usual". But it's easier to say and understand.
Or you could say that "dangerous" is shorthand for "bit of road that shows up the existing shortcomings of drivers more than usual". You could straighten/widen/signpost/bypass that road but those shortcomings will still be there. The "safer" you make the roads, the more people will push, and the more "dangerous" roads will appear elsewhere that hitherto were considered "not dangerous", imho.jagnet said:
matthias73 said:
So in response to people saying: "Waah wahhh its always the drivers fault". Go outside more.
Well hopefully several thousand miles of back roads in and around mountains throughout Europe and North Africa on endurance rallies will qualify me enough on the "going outside" scale.Sheer drops without barriers and with few passing places are common. Loose gravel on bends and hairpins constructed from polished stones were some of the more endearing traffic calming features.
I don't recall ever thinking "what a dangerous road". Everything could be dealt with by moderating speed. There's a limit to what you can do about other drivers, but is that the fault of the road or the driver?
One of the participants had their car taken out by a local coming around a limited visibility corner at speed on the wrong side of the road. Hardly the fault of the road. Another ended upside down on the exit of a hairpin corner - still not sure how they managed it but the rest of us negotiated it without problem so blaming the road seems wrong.
If you have to slow to a crawl to negotiate corners then so be it.
I still maintain that there are very few circumstances when a road itself can be labelled dangerous. Drivers on the other hand, that's a very different matter.
Surely a dangerous road, would be one where if you were to run out of talent, the consequences would be far, far worse?
Eg: Badly cambered road, with fields and trees close by, is more dangerous than a badly cambered road that is on an airfield.
I've never thought I've been on a dangerous road per se, but I've been on roads where I've had to concentrate extremely hard, regardless of speed.
We could probably agree that there are dangerous situations that need to be acted upon, such as slowing down, yes?
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