Why I didn't buy a Lotus
Discussion
Captain Muppet said:
What? The Elise SC has just been relaunched with a new 220bhp engine, the new Exige has got a V6 and a new body, the Elise CR is cheaper and lighter than the standard car, and the five year plan has a new Elise in it (due in three years?). That seems to cover their current customers nicely.
Depends on what you mean by "current" I suppose. I pretty much lost interest in the Elise when they picked the Toyota engine to replace the K-series and added nearly 100kg to the weight in the process. If I ever come to replace my Elise with something newer to fulfil the same role, it will probably be a Ginetta.The Wookie said:
Yes you have to make a few sacrifices in terms of perceived quality and a bit of practicality but I think it's worth it.
I thought it was more actually quality rather than perceived! At least Lotus are addressing this now, if the plans are allowed to come to fruition!I'm not desirous of either marque but did once test drive an Elise 111S Series 2. It was a demonstrator and I found the interior a little too stark and shoddy but the gearchange was very good, the ride acceptable but when the trim behind the door fell off, it effectively sealed my rejection of it as little more than a kit car (an a not inexpensive one).
LuS1fer said:
I'm not desirous of either marque but did once test drive an Elise 111S Series 2. It was a demonstrator and I found the interior a little too stark and shoddy but the gearchange was very good, the ride acceptable but when the trim behind the door fell off, it effectively sealed my rejection of it as little more than a kit car (an a not inexpensive one).
Yes, I'd never have bought a Lotus if I minded bits falling off. I like the simplicity of the interior though - I think modern mainstream cars with huge expanses of black plastic are hideous, personally.skmark said:
Very eloquently put that man 
I personally currently own a very lovely 997 C4S which took me ages to find in such great condition and spec. I've never owned a Lotus but after a trip to the factory and spin round the test track last year I find myself yearning for an Elise.......do you think this whole argument is just a case of 'the grass is always greener' ??
No the grass is actually greener in Hethel than it is in Stuttgart. Well, there's certainly a lot more of it anyway.I personally currently own a very lovely 997 C4S which took me ages to find in such great condition and spec. I've never owned a Lotus but after a trip to the factory and spin round the test track last year I find myself yearning for an Elise.......do you think this whole argument is just a case of 'the grass is always greener' ??
And I don't mind saying that as a very proud and delighted V12 Vantage owner, there are still roads where the humble Elise is the car of choice. Same goes for the Evora. Those interested in status will never get that but it's their loss. Dismiss my Elise as a kit car or a toy car from your 911 all you like but don't misinterpret the look on my face. It will never be one of jealousy. Only pity.
I'd far rather not but I could live without my Vantage. But life would be unbearably insipid without a car with that joyous little yellow roundel on its nose. You know what though, I'm done with trying to convince people here on the Lotus forum how special their cars are (NB I never go anywhere near the porsche forum). If you don't get it now you probably never will.
egomeister said:
I thought it was more actually quality rather than perceived! At least Lotus are addressing this now, if the plans are allowed to come to fruition!
Yes, the MY12 cars are much much better in terms of fit and finish and general interior quality (in fact, I'd go as far as to say the leather is better quality than my Porsche was).The 997 I had burnt a litre of oil every 800 miles, developed significant vibration through the gearstick and started making some extremely peculiar noises from the rear on occasions. All of this after only 10,000 miles of road driving.
My MY11 Evora S, started off as a factory Marketing car including plenty of on-track demo laps. It hasn't burnt a drop of oil in 12,000 miles, and generally hasn't missed a beat.
I think Lotus came to rely on the odd mindset of people who bought Elises - loyal customers who are, by and large, happy to finish the design & build process themselves.
I imagine they must have had a rude awakening if they thought the same strategy would work with the Evora. Few people spending that kind of money are prepared to play that game.
I imagine they must have had a rude awakening if they thought the same strategy would work with the Evora. Few people spending that kind of money are prepared to play that game.
Edited by Risotto on Thursday 9th February 15:04
kambites said:
Captain Muppet said:
What? The Elise SC has just been relaunched with a new 220bhp engine, the new Exige has got a V6 and a new body, the Elise CR is cheaper and lighter than the standard car, and the five year plan has a new Elise in it (due in three years?). That seems to cover their current customers nicely.
Depends on what you mean by "current" I suppose. I pretty much lost interest in the Elise when they picked the Toyota engine to replace the K-series and added nearly 100kg to the weight in the process. If I ever come to replace my Elise with something newer to fulfil the same role, it will probably be a Ginetta.Captain Muppet said:
... I drive cars, I don't weigh them. If the driving experience is good I'll buy it.
Yes me too, I obviously misstated that - from what I've read of it I'd happily own an Evora, which is much heavier. However, I just didn't like the Toyota engined Elise's that I've driven very much because they felt heavy and slightly unresponsive compared to the older cars to me. The Pits said:
No the grass is actually greener in Hethel than it is in Stuttgart. Well, there's certainly a lot more of it anyway.
And I don't mind saying that as a very proud and delighted V12 Vantage owner, there are still roads where the humble Elise is the car of choice. Same goes for the Evora. Those interested in status will never get that but it's their loss. Dismiss my Elise as a kit car or a toy car from your 911 all you like but don't misinterpret the look on my face. It will never be one of jealousy. Only pity.
I'd far rather not but I could live without my Vantage. But life would be unbearably insipid without a car with that joyous little yellow roundel on its nose. You know what though, I'm done with trying to convince people here on the Lotus forum how special their cars are (NB I never go anywhere near the porsche forum). If you don't get it now you probably never will.
TBH if "getting it" as you put it requires me to be a condescending, narrow minded and sanctimonious berk then TBH I think I'd rather not....And I don't mind saying that as a very proud and delighted V12 Vantage owner, there are still roads where the humble Elise is the car of choice. Same goes for the Evora. Those interested in status will never get that but it's their loss. Dismiss my Elise as a kit car or a toy car from your 911 all you like but don't misinterpret the look on my face. It will never be one of jealousy. Only pity.
I'd far rather not but I could live without my Vantage. But life would be unbearably insipid without a car with that joyous little yellow roundel on its nose. You know what though, I'm done with trying to convince people here on the Lotus forum how special their cars are (NB I never go anywhere near the porsche forum). If you don't get it now you probably never will.
Always been a big Lotus fan but if your posts are in any way representative of their owners then all you have managed to do is lower my opinion of the brand.
If you were to judge cars by their typical owners then very few high performance cars would be any good. Did you consider the Lotus Europa's - although just a glorified Vauxhall VXT, I think the look of them aged really well. Thought they were fugly at first.
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/3481581.htm?
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/3481581.htm?
You can drive for over 50 years - i'm sure that during that period you can experience many different cars.
As I have owned both Porsche and Lotus and would happily own either again I really cannot see why there is so much bickering - surely people like change for change sake - it doesn't always have to be a rational decision backed up by whether it burns x amount of oil or is lighter by x kg FFS.
Buy one then a few years later buy something else then buy another of the first one if you want.... enjoy life, enjoy the car and stop trying to justify it all the time
As I have owned both Porsche and Lotus and would happily own either again I really cannot see why there is so much bickering - surely people like change for change sake - it doesn't always have to be a rational decision backed up by whether it burns x amount of oil or is lighter by x kg FFS.
Buy one then a few years later buy something else then buy another of the first one if you want.... enjoy life, enjoy the car and stop trying to justify it all the time
Herbs said:
You can drive for over 50 years - i'm sure that during that period you can experience many different cars.
As I have owned both Porsche and Lotus and would happily own either again I really cannot see why there is so much bickering - surely people like change for change sake - it doesn't always have to be a rational decision backed up by whether it burns x amount of oil or is lighter by x kg FFS.
Buy one then a few years later buy something else then buy another of the first one if you want.... enjoy life, enjoy the car and stop trying to justify it all the time
This. Very nicely put that man.As I have owned both Porsche and Lotus and would happily own either again I really cannot see why there is so much bickering - surely people like change for change sake - it doesn't always have to be a rational decision backed up by whether it burns x amount of oil or is lighter by x kg FFS.
Buy one then a few years later buy something else then buy another of the first one if you want.... enjoy life, enjoy the car and stop trying to justify it all the time
Lotus do some things better than Porsche and vice versa. Both make good cars in their own ways and both certainly have a place on the road. I'd love to see a joint venture - let Lotus do the chassis design and setup and the major controls and Porsche do, well, everything else really.
The Pits said:
If there ever was a rivalry between porsche and lotus it was years ago and porsche won in a very big way.
The unwashed hoards of savages can't get enough of them.
Porsche is an automotive monolith that will be around forever. They are Man United. They win everything. All the time.
Lotus is a minnow teetering on the brink. The tragedy for many so called 'enthusiasts' is that they won't even realise the scale of what will have been lost if, or when, Lotus goes under. A lot of you porsche sympathisers (people for whom stuff like 'hewn from solid' is all that really matters) probably think TVR were hopeless and they deserved to fail. If only you had an inkling of what they achieved for the price of a garish GT3RS sticker kit you'd have more respect for the design and engineering talent that has gone for good. And TVR isn't just a loss for britain, it's a loss for motoring in general. A bright spark of individuality forever lost to the insidious creep of joyless conservatism.
Posts dedicated to all that's wrong with Lotus written by someone who has just bought a 911 are only helping a company that doesn't need any help.
Worse still, there are idiots on here who are very easily dissuaded by something as trivial as the flat battery story because it's taken as evidence of a negative preconception they have about the company. Of course it's disappointing but its forgiven if it happens at a porsche dealer, terminal if it happens at a lotus dealer. So I have to question what the OP is hoping to achieve from his post?
To persuade more people to buy porsches? To kick Lotus up the arse and motivate them to do better by publicly shaming them?
I prefer the latter (I think?) but I suspect the former is all that's going to come out of it.
Quite. To be honest the only thing I could find separating the Evora and the Carrera in the OP's post was 'residuals', especially given that both were flawed in their own way.The unwashed hoards of savages can't get enough of them.
Porsche is an automotive monolith that will be around forever. They are Man United. They win everything. All the time.
Lotus is a minnow teetering on the brink. The tragedy for many so called 'enthusiasts' is that they won't even realise the scale of what will have been lost if, or when, Lotus goes under. A lot of you porsche sympathisers (people for whom stuff like 'hewn from solid' is all that really matters) probably think TVR were hopeless and they deserved to fail. If only you had an inkling of what they achieved for the price of a garish GT3RS sticker kit you'd have more respect for the design and engineering talent that has gone for good. And TVR isn't just a loss for britain, it's a loss for motoring in general. A bright spark of individuality forever lost to the insidious creep of joyless conservatism.
Posts dedicated to all that's wrong with Lotus written by someone who has just bought a 911 are only helping a company that doesn't need any help.
Worse still, there are idiots on here who are very easily dissuaded by something as trivial as the flat battery story because it's taken as evidence of a negative preconception they have about the company. Of course it's disappointing but its forgiven if it happens at a porsche dealer, terminal if it happens at a lotus dealer. So I have to question what the OP is hoping to achieve from his post?
To persuade more people to buy porsches? To kick Lotus up the arse and motivate them to do better by publicly shaming them?
I prefer the latter (I think?) but I suspect the former is all that's going to come out of it.
And that, I'm afraid, doesn't cut any ice with me. If 'residuals' are the reason why you buy a car, then you aren't buying the car because you like it, if you did so you'd get it regardless.
Choosing a car on the strength of its residuals is just a sign that you intend to get rid of it after a relatively short time (in which case surely you won't get to know it and exploit it as a sports car because you'll always be worried about whether thrashing it will affect the resale potential. Also, you won't spec it how you want it, but how you're second-guessing the next buyer will like it), or that you're scared of the post-warranty maintenance costs (in which case you're not truly dedicated to the car, surely?)
This concept of 'residuals' speaks volumes about the way people buy cars in this country. The hysteria over residual values also seems to be filling our roads with identikit cars in dull colours in specifications that the owners don't actually like, while shutting the coffin lid on cars that are actually superb, but aren't part of a narrow cabal of easily-resold blandmobiles.
There's also no getting away from the fact that if you buy a new car, you'll probably be paying interest on a depreciating asset. You're haemorrhaging cash as it is just buying it. Surely it's better to really get your money's worth by enjoying it for a few decades, rather than a few years? Losing £30k in two years is scary, yes, but spread that out over ten or fifteen years, factor in the fact that rival cars will probably end up a similar price over a similar space of time (it just seems to be immediate post-warranty residuals that vary wildly from car to car - once they're 10-15 years old it's not an issue), and it's a lot easier to deal with.
For a site of people claiming to be passionate about cars, a lot of PHers seem to be very dispassionate when it comes to owning them, and rather strangely motivated when it comes to paying for them.
Risotto said:
I think Lotus came to rely on the odd mindset of people who bought Elises - loyal customers who are, by and large, happy to finish the design & build process themselves.
I imagine they must have had a rude awakening if they thought the same strategy would work with the Evora. Few people spending that kind of money are prepared to play that game.
Not surprisingly I see it differently. The Evora is lotus trying to break into a market for whom status is all important. Which is of course an immediate own goal. Lotus is a drivers brand not a status brand. Shoddy 'Kit cars' to those that don't understand. The purest, most focused drivers cars for those that do. Evora sales prove how little driving dynamics counts for in the end.I imagine they must have had a rude awakening if they thought the same strategy would work with the Evora. Few people spending that kind of money are prepared to play that game.
Edited by Risotto on Thursday 9th February 15:04
I bought an S2 111s because I had already had a Boxster S.
Lotus and Porsche certainly do things differently!
I am not sure but I am fairly convinced that the doors are about to fall off my Lotus.
Certainly the roof creaks more than my arthritic knee.
Also, I can't really get in it. Or out.
No A/C, no ABS, no airbag, no stereo (there is but I can't hear it) nor power steering.
Down-shifting into 2nd gear is like finding the holy grail.
There are indeed several neutrals, none of them anywhere near 3rd or 4th.
Oh and hard braking requires Lance Armstrong's thighs.
I fricking love it!
Lotus and Porsche certainly do things differently!
I am not sure but I am fairly convinced that the doors are about to fall off my Lotus.
Certainly the roof creaks more than my arthritic knee.
Also, I can't really get in it. Or out.
No A/C, no ABS, no airbag, no stereo (there is but I can't hear it) nor power steering.
Down-shifting into 2nd gear is like finding the holy grail.
There are indeed several neutrals, none of them anywhere near 3rd or 4th.
Oh and hard braking requires Lance Armstrong's thighs.
I fricking love it!
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