Cars that dont win road tests but are great to own..!
Discussion
Every result has been the same when comparing Audi, BMW and Mercedes. The BWM comes out top because it offers everything the others do, but it caters for keen drivers, with its handling. It's been the same in 1992 and it's the same now, in 2012.
But Audi & Mercedes are hardly bad cars. (generally - thinking compact execs)
But Audi & Mercedes are hardly bad cars. (generally - thinking compact execs)
The Wookie said:
bikemonster said:
Staying with Porsche, the 991 is now being subjected to inhalations of breath past the teeth about its "electrical steering". As if you can tell from the driver's seat exactly how the steering is power assisted.
You know what, I think steering is one of the few things that all enthusiastic drivers can appreciate. Even my girlfriend commented on how nice the steering was in my Evora when she drove it for the first time last week.to put this in context, I have driven cars with recirculating ball steering boxes, on live axles with cart springs that have better feel than some of the over-assisted, totally numb rack&pinoin stuff out there.
it's not hard FFS, yet 90+% of the cars out there it always feels like an afterthought.
(I have the same issue with brake pedal feel on modern cars)
KB_S1 said:
Where is the photo of the boot?
I see the parcel shelf photo, but the boot?
Interesting as no vette has a parcel shelf......I see the parcel shelf photo, but the boot?
Wouldn't fancy you fitting any audio in my car if you can't tell the difference between a parcel shelf and boot space;)
Perhaps you know of other 200mph cars with a bigger boot?
Gixer said:
Hmmm.....
Perhaps you do. My post was clearly T-in-cheek as I indicated by the
Unlike yours of course that had no formatting at all. Perhaps we all need crystal balls?
Good link but still a smaller boot;)
I didn't actually spot the old fashioned winky.Perhaps you do. My post was clearly T-in-cheek as I indicated by the
Unlike yours of course that had no formatting at all. Perhaps we all need crystal balls?
Good link but still a smaller boot;)
The car audio bit threw me. Didn't understand where it came from.
No worries though.
Honda Civic Type-R FN2?
According to all the road tests this apparently was the most s
t hot hatch in the world and driving one for more than 4.5 seconds would make you want to kill yourself.
Owned one for 2 years and sure it wouldn't do any of this lift off oversteer or 4-wheel drifting malarky around a corner, but the rest of the car and driving experience (engine, drivetrain, steering feel) was great.
IMO the biggest practically issues are the two seats rather than the boot space!
According to all the road tests this apparently was the most s
t hot hatch in the world and driving one for more than 4.5 seconds would make you want to kill yourself.Owned one for 2 years and sure it wouldn't do any of this lift off oversteer or 4-wheel drifting malarky around a corner, but the rest of the car and driving experience (engine, drivetrain, steering feel) was great.
cragswinter said:
Mr2 spyder (the mk3 version)
Always spanked by the mx5 in road tests but miles better to drive in my humble. Worse thing was, nearly all tests praised its handling but slated its practicality for its lack of boot, something which was just not the reality in my experience.
Loads of space behind the seats & under the roof in the storage bins plus a wee bit more under the bonnet.
+1Always spanked by the mx5 in road tests but miles better to drive in my humble. Worse thing was, nearly all tests praised its handling but slated its practicality for its lack of boot, something which was just not the reality in my experience.
Loads of space behind the seats & under the roof in the storage bins plus a wee bit more under the bonnet.
IMO the biggest practically issues are the two seats rather than the boot space!
Edited by MarkRSi on Monday 13th February 12:59
Dave Hedgehog said:
The problem is most journos like to think they are close to or are professional race drivers (like monkey boy), what they can achieve and look for in a car on a track is not attainable by 99.9% of people or relevant 99.9% of the time in a road car
Fixed that for you. Comparing the cars I've driven to what the reviews say I'm fairly sure that they are massively exaggerating their "problem" with electric power steering, traction control, stability control, drive-by-wire throttles etc, just to make themselves sound clever. I'm not even going to start on the industry's collective stupidity when it comes to build quality.
There is very little difference between mainstream cars, which is why plenty of people are happy with a Passat instead of an ultimate-oppo spec BMW.
[quote=MarkRSi]Honda Civic Type-R FN2?
According to all the road tests this apparently was the most st hot hatch in the world and driving one for more than 4.5 seconds would make you want to kill yourself.
Owned one for 2 years and sure it wouldn't do any of this lift off oversteer or 4-wheel drifting malarky around a corner, but the rest of the car and driving experience (engine, drivechain, steering feel) was great.
quote]
Think the main problem with the FN2 was due to the fact it seemed less involved compared to the EP3 (which itself was less raw and involved compared to the EK9). IIRC FN2 just used the same engine which was put into EP3's with the same power, but the car in general was more heavy and ditched the fancy suspension system in the EP3's due to costs?
Its such a pitty that FD2 CTR's are import only in the UK
According to all the road tests this apparently was the most s
t hot hatch in the world and driving one for more than 4.5 seconds would make you want to kill yourself.Owned one for 2 years and sure it wouldn't do any of this lift off oversteer or 4-wheel drifting malarky around a corner, but the rest of the car and driving experience (engine, drivechain, steering feel) was great.
quote]
Think the main problem with the FN2 was due to the fact it seemed less involved compared to the EP3 (which itself was less raw and involved compared to the EK9). IIRC FN2 just used the same engine which was put into EP3's with the same power, but the car in general was more heavy and ditched the fancy suspension system in the EP3's due to costs?
Its such a pitty that FD2 CTR's are import only in the UK
I will put my current car forward, Focus ST170.
Yes it is slower in a straight line than pretty much every other warm/hot hatch out there, but once it's going it devours corners, bumps and all the general foibles of a British B-road superbly.
Most importantly though is one simple fact, it is a mk1 Focus the family hatch that raised the standards to new heights when it was released and on PH of all place we know just how good they were.
In a group test it would always finish behind the Clio172 and the Civic Type R generally with "sublime chassis, average engine" and they are right, but I would rather have the ST170 everyday.
If someone offered you the choice of a 1.4 Clio, 1.4 Civic or 1.4 Focus from that era very few people would ignore the Ford, just because the ST doesn't quite have the firepower of its rival some people seemed to completely miss the point.
And as anyone who has tried to follow me in it will tell you, it's plenty fast enough in the twisties.
Yes it is slower in a straight line than pretty much every other warm/hot hatch out there, but once it's going it devours corners, bumps and all the general foibles of a British B-road superbly.
Most importantly though is one simple fact, it is a mk1 Focus the family hatch that raised the standards to new heights when it was released and on PH of all place we know just how good they were.
In a group test it would always finish behind the Clio172 and the Civic Type R generally with "sublime chassis, average engine" and they are right, but I would rather have the ST170 everyday.
If someone offered you the choice of a 1.4 Clio, 1.4 Civic or 1.4 Focus from that era very few people would ignore the Ford, just because the ST doesn't quite have the firepower of its rival some people seemed to completely miss the point.
And as anyone who has tried to follow me in it will tell you, it's plenty fast enough in the twisties.
I agree with this, Ive often tried to find an ST 170 Estate to consider buying, but have failed!
Back to my original thread, Evo said of the TT RS final running report
"dynamically its not brilliant so its not a group test winner. But as a car to live with, its fantastic".
I guess this sums up a lot of cars out there that are not brilliant at 100% limit on track, but make fine cars to spend some time with.
Back to my original thread, Evo said of the TT RS final running report
"dynamically its not brilliant so its not a group test winner. But as a car to live with, its fantastic".
I guess this sums up a lot of cars out there that are not brilliant at 100% limit on track, but make fine cars to spend some time with.
bikemonster said:
The word you were looking for is "few". Not that a car's on track performance is really of any value for cars that will never be driven on track...which is very nearly all of them.
Motoring journalists are in general utter sheep. As soon as one hits upon a vaguely valid description/criticsm of a car, it sticks.
I'm old enough to remember just about every reviewer criticising the Porsche 944 for having handling that was too good. WTF was that supposed to mean?
Staying with Porsche, the 991 is now being subjected to inhalations of breath past the teeth about its "electrical steering". As if you can tell from the driver's seat exactly how the steering is power assisted.
(Of course the PH lot are all paragons of the driving arts and just as talented as wordsmiths and hence escape my 'in general' criticsm.)
Not heard a single criticism of the electric steering in either evo or autocar. Both have had nothing but praise for the 991 and its new steering.Motoring journalists are in general utter sheep. As soon as one hits upon a vaguely valid description/criticsm of a car, it sticks.
I'm old enough to remember just about every reviewer criticising the Porsche 944 for having handling that was too good. WTF was that supposed to mean?
Staying with Porsche, the 991 is now being subjected to inhalations of breath past the teeth about its "electrical steering". As if you can tell from the driver's seat exactly how the steering is power assisted.
(Of course the PH lot are all paragons of the driving arts and just as talented as wordsmiths and hence escape my 'in general' criticsm.)
Also, I think electric steering is pretty easy to spot. I drive a LOT of new cars (work for a car hire company) and it's very obvious which ones have electric steering.
I agree with your overall point though. It does seem that some unfair criticisms become the de-facto response until someone has the stones to say otherwise.
militantmandy said:
Not heard a single criticism of the electric steering in either evo or autocar. Both have had nothing but praise for the 991 and its new steering.
Indeed. And the GT 86. Both have received praise for their steering in spite of the fact it's electrically assisted, which does have a proven record of robbing feel in other applications.nottyash said:
cragswinter said:
Mr2 spyder (the mk3 version)
Loads of space behind the seats & under the roof in the storage bins plus a wee bit more under the bonnet.
Errr, it hasnt has it? Really??Loads of space behind the seats & under the roof in the storage bins plus a wee bit more under the bonnet.
nottyash said:
Errr, it hasnt has it? Really??
No it hasn't but brilliant otherwise.I remember the mk4 R32 Golf winning a big group test in Evo soon after I'd bought one. They then ran one as a long termer and the reports were all good.
Then it came to the end of test (long term) report and it got a fair old battering. I questioned this and had a bit of a chat with the journalist - he basically admitted they'd got bored and were after the next new thing.
I think this often happens.
Jayho said:
Think the main problem with the FN2 was due to the fact it seemed less involved compared to the EP3 (which itself was less raw and involved compared to the EK9). IIRC FN2 just used the same engine which was put into EP3's with the same power, but the car in general was more heavy and ditched the fancy suspension system in the EP3's due to costs?
Its such a pitty that FD2 CTR's are import only in the UK
Depends what you want from the car - one might say the balance of the car makes it 'uninvolving', but it does give the car tremendous stability and allow you to drive like a tIts such a pitty that FD2 CTR's are import only in the UK
t with confidence. It allows you to give 100% to the engine and gearbox, a real highlight so IMO the car was very involving when you wanted it to be. Even when driving normally it was still a pleasure to drive.Although if you gave me the choice of an FD2 or FN2... I'd probably have the FD2...
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