Real world driving - LSD vs no LSD

[aeropilot]

madevo said:

but also agree that I probably wouldn't notice it with the type of driving I do.

If that's the case, then I'd ask why the hell do want a car like a C63 then?

A car like a C63 NEEDS a LSD frankly, and I can't even imagine how bad one would be like without one

The lack of a LSD is my one and only serious critism of my 135i, and that's only got just over 300hp and 400Nm of torque (and a stupid TCS system )

[Olivera]

No comments on an LSD increasing understeer in certain conditions?

[VinceFox]

Olivera said:

No comments on an LSD increasing understeer in certain conditions?

never noticed it personally. perhaps i subconsciously drive round it, but tbh a lot of the feel of how i drive, i find difficult to communicate.

[JDMDrifter]

Only a very tight LSD will cause understeer on decelleration and if thats the case a tight LSD will probably cause more power on sliding than understeer.

[Crispy Rice]

I would never buy a car without an LSD, front or rear wheel drive.

It's an absolute must.

Good examples with LSD are:
Focus RS
R26
ITR
S2000
200sx
350Z
M3/5
Monaro
RX8

Bad Examples with out lovely LSD:
Cayman/Boxster (unless spyder or later models as an option)
Most 911s
Clio 200 - still fun tho
Lots of AMG Mercs
Lesser BMWs
Alfa GTVs


Clearly not an exhaustive list... Do Jag XK8/Rs have one?

[anonymous-user]

Crispy Rice said:

I would never buy a car without an LSD, front or rear wheel drive.


Clearly not an exhaustive list... Do Jag XK8/Rs have one?

The latest 5.0 XKR has an electronic LSD, but none of the previous models do and they really could benefit from it. Straight 6 XJR had one, and it worked nicely.

[J4CKO]

My 944 will go sideways quite convincingly without one, my old Manta's and Capri's used to unload one tyre and spin it, this doesnt seem to do it the same, might be down to the greasy roads at the moment though.

[redgriff500]

I like my RWD cars to have an LSD BUT making progress in slippery conditions is far safer without one.

If you accelerate without an LSD you may find one wheel spins and you don't get any acceleration - safe

With an LSD it means the rear can step out - great if you were expecting it - not so great if you weren't. (I'm assuming no computer nannying on the car)

IIRC the 944 Turbo was originally supplied with an LSD and after loads were crashed it was removed and became an option.

[gangzoom]

Before I had a LSD fitted to my 335i, the stupid TC/ESP light use to come on at the slightest prod of the throttle. With a LSD fitted even on damp roads the car now just squats down and goes, the TC will still kick in but only when the backend has started to slip....which is fine if your expecting it, but if your not awake can catch you out.

[Aizle]

Crispy Rice said:

I would never buy a car without an LSD, front or rear wheel drive.

It's an absolute must.

Good examples with LSD are:
Focus RS
R26
ITR
S2000
200sx
350Z
M3/5
Monaro
RX8

Bad Examples with out lovely LSD:
Cayman/Boxster (unless spyder or later models as an option)
Most 911s
Clio 200 - still fun tho
Lots of AMG Mercs
Lesser BMWs
Alfa GTVs


Clearly not an exhaustive list... Do Jag XK8/Rs have one?

Fairly sure 350Zs don't have an LSD. Otherwise I agree with your list and view!

[rallycross]

J4CKO said:

My 944 will go sideways quite convincingly without one, my old Manta's and Capri's used to unload one tyre and spin it, this doesnt seem to do it the same, might be down to the greasy roads at the moment though.

You are not driving it hard enough if you think it does not need an LSD! the difference between a 944/968 with/ without LSD is massive have owned loads of them and even a 944' S2 3.0 would go much better with an LSD however very fee have other than turbo S / SE models.

[sleep envy]

Aizle said:

Crispy Rice said:

I would never buy a car without an LSD, front or rear wheel drive.

It's an absolute must.

Good examples with LSD are:
Focus RS
R26
ITR
S2000
200sx
350Z
M3/5
Monaro
RX8

Bad Examples with out lovely LSD:
Cayman/Boxster (unless spyder or later models as an option)
Most 911s
Clio 200 - still fun tho
Lots of AMG Mercs
Lesser BMWs
Alfa GTVs


Clearly not an exhaustive list... Do Jag XK8/Rs have one?

Fairly sure 350Zs don't have an LSD. Otherwise I agree with your list and view!

Doesn't the m3 have an e-diff?

[s m]

Aizle said:

Crispy Rice said:

I would never buy a car without an LSD, front or rear wheel drive.

It's an absolute must.

Good examples with LSD are:
Focus RS
R26
ITR
S2000
200sx
350Z
M3/5
Monaro
RX8

Bad Examples with out lovely LSD:
Cayman/Boxster (unless spyder or later models as an option)
Most 911s
Clio 200 - still fun tho
Lots of AMG Mercs
Lesser BMWs
Alfa GTVs


Clearly not an exhaustive list... Do Jag XK8/Rs have one?

Fairly sure 350Zs don't have an LSD. Otherwise I agree with your list and view!

They used to have a VC LSD - what does the 370Z have?

[Aizle]

s m said:

They used to have a VC LSD - what does the 370Z have?

VC?

[davepoth]

Aizle said:

VC?

Viscous coupling.

One thing to bear in mind is that old style LSDs were plate or clutch based, and were 'on' as soon as drive was taken up. Any modern car with a mechanical diff is likely to have a torque sensing (Torsen) one that will only think about locking up when you're booting it, and will run open at light throttle loads, meaning you don't get the understeer often seen with LSDs of old.

[-Z-]

350z's DO have an LSD.

Also some confusion on this thread over E-diffs.

E diffs on a non-LSD C63 are not LSDs they just use the brakes to try to control wheel spin.

E92 M3s have M-diffs. A true LSD with integrated pump for greater operational range.

A Ferrrari F430 has a e-diff that is a true LSD that has an associated electronic brain to alter its characteristics.

[BlitzE34]

sleep envy said:

Doesn't the m3 have an e-diff?

No it has a proper mechanical diff. Even older BMW's 90's older could have an option of an LSD. Even E30 316i's could be optioned with an LSD. I've seen an E30 316i auto with an LSD although its very rare.

My lowly E34 525i sport has a LSD as standard. Shame they dont do it these days with modern BMW's expect M cars.

[Conor D]

My '92 Eunos (LSD) will go sideways from no speed at all - and it's controllable. A dab on the accelerator around a bend in the wet will also send the back end out.

I was in a newer MX5 with an open diff, and it was nowhere near as predictable. No junction fun.

[juansolo]

Lotus opinion of them on the Elise was always funny 'look we set up the car to handle properly so it doesn't need one, however if you want to go racing we will now provide one if you really want it'. Who am I to argue with Lotus when it comes to chassis dynamics?

Their complaint is the main downside to them, they will increase a cars propensity to understeer. If you want to see a great handling car ruined by an LSD, watch Tiff punt an LSD equipped Cayman around Anglesey vs an non-LSD Evora ( found it). Unless the car is set up specifically to use the LSD, sticking one in there without any suspension set up changes will likely do more harm than good. One way or another though, the addition of an LSD will mess with the balance of the car. The Cayman really doesn't understeer like that without one!

The main advantage is that they make oversteer, particularly power oversteer, much easier to deal with. Yes they stop you spinning up a rear wheel out of junctions, though again, on the road, maybe less throttle is all that's required...

They really only become a neccessity with very high power or high power relative to weight. On cars like the Lotus, Cayman/Boxster I'm convinced they're not needed and will have a detrimental effect on their balance. As soon as the power starts creeping up on them though, they start to become useful and as long as they're set up to incorporate them, they're definitely a good thing.

Then again, the GT86 doesn't appear to be doing badly with a Torsen sat in there, which throws a lot of what I've just said on it's head, so what do I know Put it this way then, I wouldn't spec one on an Elise or a boggo Cayman/Boxster. However on a CaymanR/Spyder where it comes set up for it, or a Exige Cup where it's likely to spend a lot of time on track, yeah, it'd be handy. So I suppose my answer is; it depends...

EDIT: Obv I'm only talking about RWD here.

Edited by juansolo on Thursday 16th February 08:22

[Arun_D]

In a FWD car I wouldn't be without one if I could at all help it. All started when I fitted a Quaife ATB to my old Fiesta ST which transformed the car. Then went on to R26, R26.R and mk2 FRS. The effects are easily noticeable in the real world in FWD application, I think.

Current car is an Exige without LSD, but as said above, Lotus tend to say you don't need them. In my experience, the car has huge amounts of grip and traction as it is, only showing signs of it's basic open diff when booting out of extremely tight corners when the inside wheel would slip slightly. I can imagine in RWD applications with much more power, it would start becoming more necessary.