Are modern performance cars irrelevant?
Discussion
I have a lot more fun driving my 28 year old Land Rover on the roads than my Mercedes.
The Merc runs about 310bhp and plenty of torque, hits 60 in under 6 and pulls hard all the way to stupid speeds, but is so boring to drive, as you simply can't use the power on the roads. On the rare occasion I get the opportunity to open the taps, I just end up joining the back of the next queue in a matter of moments.
The Landy on the other hand, left the factory with 75bhp and can only just hit 60 (the fastest I have ever had it was 62 on the GPS, downhill on the M3). But every corner is a challenge to keep the momentum up, as if you get a line wrong, it takes an age to regain speed. It is much, much more rewarding to drive and I find that 90% of the time, I can keep up with the traffic flow on A roads through a bit of concentration and working at it.
And then, you get it off-road......
The Merc runs about 310bhp and plenty of torque, hits 60 in under 6 and pulls hard all the way to stupid speeds, but is so boring to drive, as you simply can't use the power on the roads. On the rare occasion I get the opportunity to open the taps, I just end up joining the back of the next queue in a matter of moments.
The Landy on the other hand, left the factory with 75bhp and can only just hit 60 (the fastest I have ever had it was 62 on the GPS, downhill on the M3). But every corner is a challenge to keep the momentum up, as if you get a line wrong, it takes an age to regain speed. It is much, much more rewarding to drive and I find that 90% of the time, I can keep up with the traffic flow on A roads through a bit of concentration and working at it.
And then, you get it off-road......
TVRs are the only affordable cars that really excite me. Sure, there are some very capable modern hot hatches and fast saloons that I would like to own at some point, but as the OP suggests, they are a bit too refined.
For all those that are getting bored of the latest fast cars, do yourself a favour and have a go in a Tiv! You don't have to drive them flat-out to get the heart racing either!
For all those that are getting bored of the latest fast cars, do yourself a favour and have a go in a Tiv! You don't have to drive them flat-out to get the heart racing either!
Its a double edged sword though isn't it.
Go and buy an older car that has the rawness you want.. probably be a better car for the road as you'll probably be going slower but still get the sense of speed etc..
But, when its 30 degrees out and you're on the way to a meeting you'll reach for the air con control.. ah. You need to press on a bit (late for the meeting!) and realise that its pretty noisy in this thing..
then it starts raining, the wipers aren't up too much, the screen vents are a bit crap and its misting up a bit.. to say nothing of the service schedule/maintenance... remember having your carb retuned for winter ? Then some muppet decides to crash in to you, no airbag, no crash protection.. suddenly its not so appealing..
On a lesser scale than the OP mentions think about driving a 3.5 year old focus ST or a 35 year old Mk2 escort RS2000.
At the moment I've got a serious "want" for a mk2 as a daily (along with various other cars
), but I don't think its practical. Lovely summer day for the scenic route to work ? Mk2 every time. Cold, icy long distance trip ? Focus...
Of course if we're talking second cars here it doesn't apply as you'd have a daily to fall back on.
Go and buy an older car that has the rawness you want.. probably be a better car for the road as you'll probably be going slower but still get the sense of speed etc..
But, when its 30 degrees out and you're on the way to a meeting you'll reach for the air con control.. ah. You need to press on a bit (late for the meeting!) and realise that its pretty noisy in this thing..
then it starts raining, the wipers aren't up too much, the screen vents are a bit crap and its misting up a bit.. to say nothing of the service schedule/maintenance... remember having your carb retuned for winter ? Then some muppet decides to crash in to you, no airbag, no crash protection.. suddenly its not so appealing..
On a lesser scale than the OP mentions think about driving a 3.5 year old focus ST or a 35 year old Mk2 escort RS2000.
At the moment I've got a serious "want" for a mk2 as a daily (along with various other cars
), but I don't think its practical. Lovely summer day for the scenic route to work ? Mk2 every time. Cold, icy long distance trip ? Focus... Of course if we're talking second cars here it doesn't apply as you'd have a daily to fall back on.
I've often thought my Z4M is a bit too quick for UK roads, doesn't stop me enjoying it though, my S2000 was plenty quick enough and just as much fun if not quite as fast.
I tend to get frustrated now in slower stuff so can't really enjoy myself as much although they can be more exploitable on our roads.
I tend to get frustrated now in slower stuff so can't really enjoy myself as much although they can be more exploitable on our roads.
Crafty_ said:
Its a double edged sword though isn't it.
Go and buy an older car that has the rawness you want.. probably be a better car for the road as you'll probably be going slower but still get the sense of speed etc..
But, when its 30 degrees out and you're on the way to a meeting you'll reach for the air con control.. ah. You need to press on a bit (late for the meeting!) and realise that its pretty noisy in this thing..
then it starts raining, the wipers aren't up too much, the screen vents are a bit crap and its misting up a bit.. to say nothing of the service schedule/maintenance... remember having your carb retuned for winter ? Then some muppet decides to crash in to you, no airbag, no crash protection.. suddenly its not so appealing..
You borrowed my 944 perchance Go and buy an older car that has the rawness you want.. probably be a better car for the road as you'll probably be going slower but still get the sense of speed etc..
But, when its 30 degrees out and you're on the way to a meeting you'll reach for the air con control.. ah. You need to press on a bit (late for the meeting!) and realise that its pretty noisy in this thing..
then it starts raining, the wipers aren't up too much, the screen vents are a bit crap and its misting up a bit.. to say nothing of the service schedule/maintenance... remember having your carb retuned for winter ? Then some muppet decides to crash in to you, no airbag, no crash protection.. suddenly its not so appealing..
I'll stick with my MR2 roadster thanks. Fun, cheap, does 30mpg even when being thrashed, reasonably quick but license friendly, no driver aids, handles like a dream and has air con-o-natural lol.
I used to have a focus ST for years, mega torque, quick, refined. It just got boring. Press loud pedal, ride wave of torque, doesn't matter if your in the wrong gear. Screw up a corner - ESP kicks in. Wheel spin and understeer. Constant 20mpg and 3 points and a £60 fine from mr plod who basically did me a favour I should have ended up in court.
I used to have a focus ST for years, mega torque, quick, refined. It just got boring. Press loud pedal, ride wave of torque, doesn't matter if your in the wrong gear. Screw up a corner - ESP kicks in. Wheel spin and understeer. Constant 20mpg and 3 points and a £60 fine from mr plod who basically did me a favour I should have ended up in court.
Todays roads are the perfect storm of cars that are too boring to drive within the speed limit and a fanatical tax-fishing expedition on the motorist who speeds to avoid that boredom.
I did have a fast car _with_ character a few years back, but you couldn't thrash it without almost instantly breaking the speedlimit, and a decent rev in 2nd would damage the national speed limit in a second or two.
So as I actually like thrashing cars and revving the engine out properly I now have transport with much much smaller engines! More fun and the added bonus of not paying 75% of my fuel bill as tax to the wasters in government to give to Argentina or Somalians living in Kensington on benefits.
Or and road tax is much less too. Smaller engines are a win-win.
I did have a fast car _with_ character a few years back, but you couldn't thrash it without almost instantly breaking the speedlimit, and a decent rev in 2nd would damage the national speed limit in a second or two.
So as I actually like thrashing cars and revving the engine out properly I now have transport with much much smaller engines! More fun and the added bonus of not paying 75% of my fuel bill as tax to the wasters in government to give to Argentina or Somalians living in Kensington on benefits.
Or and road tax is much less too. Smaller engines are a win-win.
Nowhere near the same league as an M5 but I was finding this problem out in my last car and that was just shy of 300bhp. On a twisty b-road I was could do it no quicker than the Civic, and quite possibly slower than the Integra. Both of which are more fun due to the fact you have to rev them hard to make good progress. It's that thought at the moment that's put me off an M3 to be honest.
My dd at the moment is a base Cayman 2.7. She is not the slowest but far from quick: really to slow for the track, to long gearing etc. Sometimes I think about p/x for a Cayman S (Cayman is a great chassis). But then the insurance will go up, the Road tax will almost double and the most important thing: will I ever be able to rev it and not break the limits? Go figure LOL
Wasn't this James May's point that such powerful cars are not being used anywhere near their limit. So its better to have a car which has proper usable power.
I now have a car which doesn 0-60mph in 8seconds and its really too slow. I need something with sub 7-seconds time and doesn't scrabble for grip. Thats enough for me.
I now have a car which doesn 0-60mph in 8seconds and its really too slow. I need something with sub 7-seconds time and doesn't scrabble for grip. Thats enough for me.
OP, I think that's more to do with the M5 than with modern performance cars as a whole.
I've never driven an M anything, and I have liked the 5 series cars that I've driven, but I've driven a few six cylinder 3s of various generations and they've all left me feeling the same as the M5 left you feeling. Just too clinical and refined when not caning it. Perhaps that's just how BMW do things. Quiet family car most of the time, then it comes alive on a track (or so I hear).
I must be honest, I don't see the relevance of that on southern UK roads. Here, I'd rather have a car that feels brilliant and accurate and involving up to 6 tenths but then loses the plot when you're really cracking on, because that's a car I'll appreciate and enjoy for 99% of my time on the road, instead of just 1% when I'm on a bit of tarmac that's clear enough, and clearly sighted enough, and has enough space to exploit all of just about any modern car's performance in safety.
Personally, I do think if you tried a Quattroporte or Rapide, you might not have come to the same conclusion. Those are cars that seem to be able to distract the driver in pleasing ways even when they're not on a mission. And Mercs have a particular lazy or unhurried, stately character that can be appreciated at low speed. Or at least they used to. The car just needs something to make it feel special more often, and it can be done.
I've never driven an M anything, and I have liked the 5 series cars that I've driven, but I've driven a few six cylinder 3s of various generations and they've all left me feeling the same as the M5 left you feeling. Just too clinical and refined when not caning it. Perhaps that's just how BMW do things. Quiet family car most of the time, then it comes alive on a track (or so I hear).
I must be honest, I don't see the relevance of that on southern UK roads. Here, I'd rather have a car that feels brilliant and accurate and involving up to 6 tenths but then loses the plot when you're really cracking on, because that's a car I'll appreciate and enjoy for 99% of my time on the road, instead of just 1% when I'm on a bit of tarmac that's clear enough, and clearly sighted enough, and has enough space to exploit all of just about any modern car's performance in safety.
Personally, I do think if you tried a Quattroporte or Rapide, you might not have come to the same conclusion. Those are cars that seem to be able to distract the driver in pleasing ways even when they're not on a mission. And Mercs have a particular lazy or unhurried, stately character that can be appreciated at low speed. Or at least they used to. The car just needs something to make it feel special more often, and it can be done.
I've moved from a standard MX5 as a daily driver to one running 270 bhp/ton. The standard one was much more fun on UK roads, the turbo'd one is much more fun on the track. If I didn't do trackdays I'd move back to a standard MX5 as I never get to use the power on offer from the turbo'd car on the road. And quite frankly if I did I'd likely kill someone, kill myself or lose my licence. There are just too many other cars, bicylces, motorbikes, pedestrians, dogs, cats, children on the roads these days to push cars to their limits without significant consequences.
I think i'd possibly agree. Nearly bought a VXR8 a couple of years ago, but to do that I would have had to sell both my cars and run just the one.............but then I would have too much to loose if I took it on track.
So kept the Luxo barge and the toy.
The Luxo barge is still quite fast on the traffic lights grand prix (sub 7 secs), but after that it settles into waft mode. I don't even speed in it, its such a pleasant place to be.
The toy is for those early morning blasts and track days.
Barges these days are such a bargain and the quality so good, I really don't get why anyone would get one brand new. Even as a company car, If I had the choice I would take the cash alternative and run a second hand luxo barge.
So kept the Luxo barge and the toy.
The Luxo barge is still quite fast on the traffic lights grand prix (sub 7 secs), but after that it settles into waft mode. I don't even speed in it, its such a pleasant place to be.
The toy is for those early morning blasts and track days.
Barges these days are such a bargain and the quality so good, I really don't get why anyone would get one brand new. Even as a company car, If I had the choice I would take the cash alternative and run a second hand luxo barge.
TBH I think your post says more about the car than the roads. Of course you're not going to be able to use 500bhp all the time in the UK which is why a good car should provide thrills at any speed and the previous M5 was far better at that than the new M5. Personally I'd take an XFR any day of the week because it feels far more special, feeds back at all speeds and sounds like a battle of Britain flypast, all of which makes it enjoyable even when the roads aren't clear. The new M5 is technical tour de force, but anaesthetised until you drive at nine tenths.
The RS6 is sometimes the perfect choice, and I use it a lot (for the combination of its enormous boot size, comfort, pace and V10 roar). But every single day this week I've only used the integrale; it's so much better at being hurled down the little lanes.
Horses for courses and all that.
Horses for courses and all that.
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