Driver "aids" Why so many? Can no-one drive anymore?

[Mr2Mike]

doogz said:

Actually, now that I think about it, when I got in the car this morning, when it was dark and pissing with rain outside, as I stuck the key in the ignition, I thought to myself:

"This doesn't feel right, I wish I had a starter handle, and I'd get out just now and crank the engine over by hand instead of turning this key and having the stupid starter motor do it for me."

Do you actually believe you could swing over a modern diesel engine (or a large petrol engine come to that) with a starting handle?

[otolith]

I like the Elise for driving. I like the Saab for transport. Most cars sold are for transport. Most people would be perfectly happy with a car which drove itself and let them have a snooze in the back.

[Krikkit]

Great, another PH thread to drag the weird beards from the woodwork and let them rant about pure driving experiences... which are totally unwanted by 90+% of the driving population, not to mention requiring greater skills in the event of something happening (e.g. No ABS, ESC etc - I'd rather have a computer helping out those that don't give a toss about driving!)

[Captain Muppet]

Mr2Mike said:

doogz said:

Actually, now that I think about it, when I got in the car this morning, when it was dark and pissing with rain outside, as I stuck the key in the ignition, I thought to myself:

"This doesn't feel right, I wish I had a starter handle, and I'd get out just now and crank the engine over by hand instead of turning this key and having the stupid starter motor do it for me."

Do you actually believe you could swing over a modern diesel engine (or a large petrol engine come to that) with a starting handle?

I'd fit a lawnmower motor to start the car engine and pull-start the lawnmower motor.
Luddite smarter, not harder.

[drivin_me_nuts]

nickbee said:

The primary purpose of cars is to transport people and objects between locations quickly, comfortably and safety. If I'm trying to transport my family the length of the country at night in the rain, I'll happily accept any help that's offered to me without considering it an affront to my dignity, an insult to my driving ability or a question mark over my general manliness. I'm perfectly capable of parking in the multi-story at the station each morning, but it's a joyless experience so if a beepy sensor made it a touch easier I'd welcome it.

If I'm trying to work my way round Brands faster than before then my priorities are entirely different because I'm doing it for fun, but I'm in a small minority of people who ever put themselves in that situation.

Pretty much my view to. comfort and security on a pissing down M25 make for a more practical proposition than 'feel' and 'involvement'. let me get there and back and in the middle function in my working day in the most composed and relaxed way possible.

[Mr2Mike]

Captain Muppet said:

I'd fit a lawnmower motor to start the car engine and pull-start the lawnmower motor.
Luddite smarter, not harder.

Donkey

[AnimalMkIV]

I've no problem with additional driver aids, it's just the natural progression of technology.

It's the proliferation of driver AIDS that annoys me most - lack of lane discipline, poor observation and general frackwittery of the general driving populace.

Driver AIDS - don't drive with ignorance.

[nickbee]

AnimalMkIV said:

I've no problem with additional driver aids, it's just the natural progression of technology.

It's the proliferation of driver AIDS that annoys me most...

Agreed, I like automatic systems on my daily driver but I definitely don't want to have AIDS.

[S2Mike]

My original post only mentions some of the "aids" that have subsequently been ranted about, I realise the benefits of the safety ones, ABS ESP etc,and accept in these days of travel they do help, but when do self illuminating lights become necessary?
Yes I know a starter motor working on the key is preferable, that is not so much an aid as a requirement due to ability to wind a starter handle.
But its up to a driver to be aware of what is going on around them.
Or are they all too busy now they have time to use mobile phones and beard trimmers while driving??

Edited by S2Mike on Wednesday 26th September 11:55

[kambites]

I suspect that at some point within our life-times, it will reach its natural conclusion and all control will be taken away from the driver.

[nickbee]

S2Mike said:

My original post only mentions some of the "aids" that have subsequently been ranted about, I realise the benefits of the safety ones, ABS ESP etc,and accept in these days of travel they do help, but when do self illuminating lights become necessary?
Yes I know a starter motor working on the key is preferable, that is not so much an aid as a requirement due to ability to wind a starter handle.

Are you saying that on cars with small petrol engines, starter motors are a bit unnecessary? Equally, who the hell enjoys switching on their headlights? Anyone's capable, but if the car can do it, let it.

Any line which you draw in the sand is entirely arbitary based on whether you consider something to be necessary. I've heard plenty of people say that ABS is pointless, apparently proven by the fact that a professional driver can stop a non-assisted car quicker on gravel. There is an argument that the more which is done for you, the less attention you pay but it could be countered with an argument that given a person's capacity for attention, the more of it which is focussed on the road ahead, the better.

[gradeA]

S2Mike said:

It wont be long before roads will be like a huge scalextric track, all the dummies just step into a passenger pod which runs in a slot, which transports them to somewhere near where they want to go!

HTH

[AJB]

S2Mike said:

My original post only mentions some of the "aids" that have subsequently been ranted about, I realise the benefits of the safety ones, ABS ESP etc,and accept in these days of travel they do help, but when do self illuminating lights become necessary?
Yes I know a starter motor working on the key is preferable, that is not so much an aid as a requirement due to ability to wind a starter handle.

Personally, I think that auto lights are completely pointless, but I like having most of the other things talked about.

I think the issue isn't that modern cars have unnecessary aids, whilst older ones didn't, but rather that we tend to think of aids we ourselves used not to have as unnecessary. So, parking sensors, rain sensing wipers or cruise control might seem unnecessary to us, as we learnt to drive without them. Auto ignition timing, electric windscreen wipers, and starter motors seem like fundamental properties of a modern car. The next generation might well think of rain sensing wipers in the same way as we think of electric wipers, which might be the same way that a few generations before thought about having wipers at all (just open the windscreen if it's raining).

And, for what it's worth, the old 2.6 litre Series III Land Rover I learnt to drive in had no power steering, and started just fine from its starting handle. So I don't think that the argument holds up that modern cars are heavier and so power steering and electric starters are now necessary and not aids.

[S2Mike]

gradeA said:

S2Mike said:

It wont be long before roads will be like a huge scalextric track, all the dummies just step into a passenger pod which runs in a slot, which transports them to somewhere near where they want to go!

HTH

.
Oh My Gosh,
Its happening already, my prediction has come true.

I blinkin told you so!!!
We are all dooooomed, doooomed we are!!

[Hoofy]

AnimalMkIV said:

Driver AIDS - don't drive with ignorance.

Very good.</showingmyage>

[Davel]

kambites said:

I suspect that at some point within our life-times, it will reach its natural conclusion and all control will be taken away from the driver.

I have that in every car that I drive - with the wife sat next to me in the passenger seat.

[KaraK]

I have to effusively thank the OP for helping me recognise that the key difference that makes my weekend car a "pure"r and more involving driving experience than my daily is the fact that I have to manually control the lights and wipers in it. There was me thinking it had much more to do with the chassis and the engine

I'm getting sick of all these luddite Chicken Little-esque rants that would have us believe that every little gadget or gizmo added to car means the END OF DRIVING AS WE KNOW IT!!!


Right I'm going to go and move some stalks around in my car for a little lunchtime "driving pleasure" - and it won't even cost me any fuel

[stewjohnst]

I'm a lazy arse and quite happy for my car to do the mundane tasks when I'm just pootling to work and back and I don't miss doing those tasks for myself at all - I've never yet bought a car on the basis of a lovely wiper stalk action.

It turns the lights on and the wipers on. Dims the rear view and side mirrors to stop my eyes being vajazzled by Passat's and DS3's with stupid LED DRL's (now there's a technological development I could do without). It even wibbles my steering wheel if I'm indicating and there's someone in my blind spot.

All of these things are secondary systems to my mind. It might wibble my wheel but I've generally looked in my blind spot already, when my rain sensor sometimes seems to think I don't need wipers even though there's quite a bit of water on the screen I curse BMW engineering, intervene and turn them on myself...


Don't shoot me for this one but I even like the two stage traction control. Instead of behaving myself on slightly greasy or wet roads for fear of swapping ends, I can put the TC on half and have a relatively safe little prat about sliding the car on the empty industrial estate as I nip through to on my way to work and arrive with a grin on my face. It has however, meant the rear brakes have only 400 miles left to live according to the cars computer.

I'd also add I'd rather my car turned my lights on for me without thinking than be one of those nobbers I saw all over the last few days in the driving rain without any lights on at all.

Edit : Spelling

Edited by stewjohnst on Wednesday 26th September 12:48

[Twincam16]

I know what the OP's getting at. Some driver aids are OK, but most for me fall into one or both of the following camps:

-The stuff that just shouldn't be needed once you've passed your test. If you are competant to drive, then it should be second nature to switch on your headlights, reverse-park, drive down a motorway without straying out of your lane, turn on and adjust your wipers etc. These things are second-nature to me, and it's annoying when I find myself battling with the car itself over quite how fast I want the wipers to sweep, or how bright I want the headlights to be.

-The stuff that seems like a pleasant novelty when the car is new, but will cost a fortune to put right if it broke, adding to pointless ownership woes once the car hits the second-hand market.

I think we must also remember the principles of good design - that is, the simplest, cheapest, most ergonomic and elegant solution build for longevity. In cars, that means designing it with good visibility in the first place rather than having to resort to cameras everywhere, or on a sports car, ensuring the steering and exhaust note are real rather than having to artificially engineer them in afterwards. Over-complication and unnecessary complexity is the very essence of 'bad design'.

[RWD cossie wil]

I do agree with the op to be fair, so many people now really have zero idea of car control & expect the car to do it all for them, as proven by the huge amount of accidents in the last big snow.

Ask 10 people what ABS is for, I bet you at least 9 will say "to make you stop faster"!

Traction & stability control give people huge confidence boosts, and end up with a big gap between talent & their idea of talent, so when it does go wrong it goes wrong in a rarther spectacular fashion, due to people not driving to conditions & expecting the computers to sort it all out for them.

No doubt I would prefer the vast majority of idiots on the road to use them, but it HAS degraded the average drivers ability IMHO compared to older cars where you had to cadence brake, & corner at an appropriate speed to avoid an accident.

Those are a totally different set of driver aids to auto lights, wipers etc which come under the "useful" heading, that don't really degrade basic driving skills.

My question is, how long before we get the first big "adaptive cruise control" smash? Driver not paying attention, ploughing into the back of a stationary truck etc? It will happen at some point!