Pretend What Car - Classic 2+2, ideally with a V8

[DonkeyApple]

renrut said:

I think the child seat requirement and mpg is realistically gonna limit me to 80s cars onwards.

If I were to say 25mpg cruiseing instead what options does this open up for me?

A saloon isn't really what I want, coupe/convertible is. I've got a 4x4 and hatchback for daily duties and this would replace a 2 seater soft top if it happened.

I would get a straight six BMW to be honest. It's a lovely engine whether M or not and will meet most of your other criteria.

[300bhp/ton]

renrut said:

I've amended the first post to clarify what I mean about the 30mpg. I mean on a steady cruise on the motorway in clear traffic. If it only gets 18mpg round the doors and drinks like Olly Reed on track thats fine and dandy by me, that mileage will be very limited. I said this to rule out cars I really couldn't justify e.g. XJS V12s and similar.

XK8 is a good suggestion though and possible a more boxes ticked alternative to the Cerbera.

How about 25mpg on a run? Unless it's lots of miles it really won't make much difference in running cost, but would open up a lot of other cars.

And XK8 driven very well might do 30mpg, but you are far more likely to be mid 20's in one.

Also as much as I am a Jag fan, an XK8 is auto only, the rear seats are tiny and unless you plan to upgrade the suspension it's not a track car either. The convertible is slower, heavier, worse on fuel and worse on track. I think the boot might be smaller too.


I know I sometimes mentioned yank cars, but they do honestly tick the boxes of reliable performance V8 cars and are not as a rule luxury GT's as per things like the Jag XK8.



Something like this is rare in the UK (I've only seen 2 or 3), so it would take some hunting or importing yourself. 18 months ago I saw one sell for £7900.


This is a Mach 1, it uses an all aluminium 32v DOHC 4.6 V8 and makes 320hp. Most are 5 speed manuals and have uprated suspension compared to a regular Mustang GT.


Cruising mpg will be near to 30. They are fast and robust, rear seats are bigger than those of an XK8. It has a sensible boot, reliable and easy to maintain and work on. Track capable and lots of upgrade parts if you really want to get serious. Generally pretty good residuals.




Some reading here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Mustang_Mach_1#M...


Only available as a coupe though. If you want a vert you'll need to look at a Mustang Cobra. The 99-01 years are similar to the Mach 1 and the 2003/4 (last year of them) had a supercharger. Biggest difference is the Cobra has IRS instead of a live rear.


Think of them as being as close as you can get to a mass produced Cerbera.

[braddo]

DonkeyApple said:

I would get a straight six BMW to be honest. It's a lovely engine whether M or not and will meet most of your other criteria.

They're not going to feel remotely special though, which rather dilutes their weekend-car appeal. Perhaps an E21 323i might work since they're so rare these days.

[mrtwisty]

marshalla said:

http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C350882

Am I being stupid, or is there no price in that ad?




(i bet I'm being stupid)

[300bhp/ton]

braddo said:

DonkeyApple said:

I would get a straight six BMW to be honest. It's a lovely engine whether M or not and will meet most of your other criteria.

They're not going to feel remotely special though, which rather dilutes their weekend-car appeal. Perhaps an E21 323i might work since they're so rare these days.

I agree. While I like BMW's, they are very much everyday transport and not weekend specials. A titdy 635CSI might be nice. But would likely fail the mpg test, the speed test, the track use test and maybe some other points too, oh lack of a V8.

[AA88]

Supercharged MG ZT 260?

[300bhp/ton]

AA88 said:

Supercharged MG ZT 260?

I like these. But a Mustang has the same engine/transmission (or better version if Mach 1/Cobra) and weighs less, with more upgrade parts, bigger and cheaper spares, better looks, rarer and better looking.

If you don't need a saloon or an estate a Mustang is a better bet. Also being a lot lighter means a massive performance difference too in favour of the Yank.

[mikeveal]

renrut said:

Safely I said, not EuroNCAP 5*, something with a bad safety record or built like tin foil or without seat belts probably isn't a good call but most other things considered.

I also said capable of 30mpg on a run, some of the big saloon V8s (4.2 S-type for example) can do that so why not a lighter 2+2?

Please define "safely".
Anything prior to the late 90's would struggle to achieve 2* in a modern NCAP test if it were new, let alone after it has a decades worth of rot. Safety is a very personal concept.

Large = heavy.
Heavy = not nimble.
Heavy = poor economy.
Light & small = better acceration & economy.
Light & small = less safe.
Good Acceleration = poor economy.


But all of these terms are relative. Define "good accleration" and "poor economy". As one goes up, the other will go down.

You're chasing the holy grail. Expect lots of compromise.

Vtec CRX or Prelude, both FWD straight 4's . The rex will do 37mpg, 0-60 in 7.8 and is a ball to drive. It isn't quick by modern standards.
The Prelude will only get 24 ish mpg. Neither are remotely safe by modern NCAP standards.

M3, Low 20's mpg, straight six. But handles well and you can go modern enough to be "safe".

[AA88]

300bhp/ton said:

I like these. But a Mustang has the same engine/transmission (or better version if Mach 1/Cobra) and weighs less, with more upgrade parts, bigger and cheaper spares, better looks, rarer and better looking.

If you don't need a saloon or an estate a Mustang is a better bet. Also being a lot lighter means a massive performance difference too in favour of the Yank.

Did you mean to say better looking twice?

[300bhp/ton]

AA88 said:

Did you mean to say better looking twice?

No

I meant to put striking looks. The MG is ok, but it sort of blends into the background visually and isn't a poster car. A Stang is much more wow and noticeable, even if you don't like the way it looks.

[DonkeyApple]

braddo said:

DonkeyApple said:

I would get a straight six BMW to be honest. It's a lovely engine whether M or not and will meet most of your other criteria.

They're not going to feel remotely special though, which rather dilutes their weekend-car appeal. Perhaps an E21 323i might work since they're so rare these days.

True. You could have a comoflage wrap put on it though? Not much more says 'special' more loud and clear than that.

The problem is that a cheap GT/coupe capable of carrying a family, doing tracks, has a rewarding engine and works most of the time is actually a difficult remit.

[renrut]

To define safely and good acceleration I'd say:

Safely - seat belts all round must, substantial construction not degraded by rot. I know its hard to define but I'd consider a well kept Porsche 911 safe but an equivalent age and condition MGB not. Obviously 90s onwards where NCAP and things like ISOFIX started to appear this is more measurable but I'm not of the opinion that just because a car is 20+ yrs old its immediately unsafe.

Acceleration - better than 7s to 60. Faster is better but I'd say a car with nice steering feedback that does 60 in 7s would make me far happier than a poor feedback car that does it in 5s.

A 911 does jump out as a good option and only the lack of V8 wouldput it down. But 10K won't get me an older one now.

I find it hard to believe that some of the 80s and 90s v8s with fuel injection would struggle to do 30mpg over a distance in a sleek coupe when a saloon can manage it. I have looked over the real world MPG Wiki and it does suggest that sub 4.5L V8s can manage over 30mpg. People say an early XKR can do 28mpg FFS.

840i BMW sounds interesting but what are they like on fuel?

[renrut]

300bhp/ton said:

AA88 said:

Supercharged MG ZT 260?

I like these. But a Mustang has the same engine/transmission (or better version if Mach 1/Cobra) and weighs less, with more upgrade parts, bigger and cheaper spares, better looks, rarer and better looking.

If you don't need a saloon or an estate a Mustang is a better bet. Also being a lot lighter means a massive performance difference too in favour of the Yank.

Saloon/estate so no thanks.

This is meant to be a 'special' weekend car not something that blends in at the company car park.

[300bhp/ton]

renrut said:

I find it hard to believe that some of the 80s and 90s v8s with fuel injection would struggle to do 30mpg over a distance in a sleek coupe when a saloon can manage it. I have looked over the real world MPG Wiki and it does suggest that sub 4.5L V8s can manage over 30mpg. People say an early XKR can do 28mpg FFS.

840i BMW sounds interesting but what are they like on fuel?

Thing is, the early 1996 XK8 used largely the same engine as the one today does. Maybe some changes in the software, but it's a lot more similar than you'd think.

Todays XK8 only rated at 25mpg (Parkers). So while it might be possible to extract 30mpg from one, you really shouldn't make it a target. Jumping in it and blasting up the M1 then off onto the country roads for an hour will likely result in well below 30mpg as a real true "mode" average. Personally I'd say an XK8 is more like 19-22mpg normal use +-5mpg for the extremes of cruising or hooning.


The BMW 840i is a BIG and HEAVY car. Parkers claim 1895kg, that's nearly 350kg heavier than my Camaro. They also claim 22mpg.... so in the teens will likely be frequent.

Edited by 300bhp/ton on Thursday 10th January 14:22

[Dr Interceptor]

You will not see 30+ MPG out of a 2+2 Sports Car with a V8, especially one of any vintage!

I run four V8s, a 1998 XJ8 4.0, a 2002 Merc E430 Estate, the Interceptor with a 7.2 V8 and the Stag with its 3.0 V8. The Merc and Jag can both get 27/28 mpg absolute maximum, but they are geared for cruising. At motorway speeds, their engines sit barely above tick over. In causal daily use they both get 22-24.

The Stag is pretty economical on a run for such an old car - in 4th at 70mph with the overdrive flicked in, it will manage 23-25mpg, but that is tops. Around town, having fun and enjoying the noise its more like 12-15! The Jensen is 10mpg average, 12-15 at absolute tops.

Any 'fun' car with a V8 won't be geared so much for cruising.

On the classic front also, cars weren't fast back then! The Stag with its 3.0V8 is lucky to hit 0-60 in 10 seconds (but it feels faster), so your 7 second target is a long way off. The MG BGT V8 did it in 7.7 seconds when new, but you say that won't be safe enough!

I think on your requirements, something ultimately will need to give...

[CedricN]

Sounds like you are describing a 928 gt(or equiv) manual, great car,.great sound track, nice in the corners. how common are they over there in the uk?

[braddo]

DonkeyApple said:

True. You could have a comoflage wrap put on it though? Not much more says 'special' more loud and clear than that.

That's one way to describe Balotelli

[Alfanatic]

CedricN said:

Sounds like you are describing a 928 gt(or equiv) manual, great car,.great sound track, nice in the corners. how common are they over there in the uk?

Yeah, 928 has been screaming out at me as the obvious choice for this, though a quick glance through the PH classifieds suggests a good one will break the budget. Only a couple in there under 10K.

http://classifieds.pistonheads.com/classifieds/use...

Here's one of them.

[Triumph Man]

renrut said:

Bit of a game and also give me food for thought in a years time and give me impetus to start saving up.

Scenario - I *need* (yes I really do) a car suitable for fun weekend motoring and a little bit of track day hooning.

This car must be capable of seating myself, my missus and young child still in car seat safely.

I *need* acceleration.

I *need* capable handling with good steering feedback.

I would like classic car looks and style.

I would like something different from the pack, so old or interesting or quirky a plus.

I wouldn't like to spend more than about £10K but this is just a 'guide price'.

I would like a vaguely usable boot for an overnight stay somewhere, pushchair fitting not necessary but a bonus.

I would like it to be capable of 30mpg on a run, what it does on a track or when pressing on isn't relevant as that is fun I'm paying for

I would like a soft top or targa but coupe is fine. I don't *need* a 4x4, saloon or 5 door hatchback.

I like spannering but I don't want to have to spend 10yrs restoring a pile of rust to a car shape.

I would like a V8, but other interesting engine layouts will be considered.

What are my options?

First thing to spring to mind is a Cerbera but they're a bit out of this budget now.

Edited by renrut on Thursday 10th January 12:29

Put these criteria in for the £5,000/£10,000 competition! You might win your ideal car

[plasticpig]

renrut said:

To define safely and good acceleration I'd say:

Safely - seat belts all round must, substantial construction not degraded by rot. I know its hard to define but I'd consider a well kept Porsche 911 safe but an equivalent age and condition MGB not. Obviously 90s onwards where NCAP and things like ISOFIX started to appear this is more measurable but I'm not of the opinion that just because a car is 20+ yrs old its immediately unsafe.

Acceleration - better than 7s to 60. Faster is better but I'd say a car with nice steering feedback that does 60 in 7s would make me far happier than a poor feedback car that does it in 5s.

A 911 does jump out as a good option and only the lack of V8 wouldput it down. But 10K won't get me an older one now.

I find it hard to believe that some of the 80s and 90s v8s with fuel injection would struggle to do 30mpg over a distance in a sleek coupe when a saloon can manage it. I have looked over the real world MPG Wiki and it does suggest that sub 4.5L V8s can manage over 30mpg. People say an early XKR can do 28mpg FFS.

840i BMW sounds interesting but what are they like on fuel?

Steady cruising at 60-70mph on the motorway then 30mpg is achievable in an XKR. Averaged I get 22mpg and hooning I get 8-12mpg. Not sure an XKR would make a good track day car. Maserati 3200's can also be had for less than £10k these days but probably a bit more of a risky purchase.

An alternative to an older 911 is a Renault Alpine GTA or A610 Turbo. Same RWD; rear engined layout with quirky looks and rarity value. They are also quite lightweight with the bodywork being a mix of plastics and fiberglass. They have very little boot space and are a V6 though.