Potential issues with garage
Discussion
StoatInACoat said:
Repairs I have paid for from a "backstreet" garage are stated on the invoice as guaranteed for 12 months. Any issues with any repair they have carried out has been rectified quickly and without charge.
I have used the same garage for many years, as has my Dad but so do colleagues of mine now and have had the same service. Make of that what you will.
EDIT: I disagree with the above. You have paid for a job to be completed and it hasn't been done properly. I would be cross and would lose my job if I just "had a bash at it" and charged the client when it went wrong because I didn't do it properly.
Sorry, that's just not the case. You've paid for an expert's time. That's all. I have used the same garage for many years, as has my Dad but so do colleagues of mine now and have had the same service. Make of that what you will.
EDIT: I disagree with the above. You have paid for a job to be completed and it hasn't been done properly. I would be cross and would lose my job if I just "had a bash at it" and charged the client when it went wrong because I didn't do it properly.
Edited by StoatInACoat on Tuesday 22 October 14:12
It went from broken to fixed in his care. Result. If it's gone back to broken again, that may be because he's got something wrong, or more likely, the problem is bigger than whatever he was able to do for £500.
Perhaps if you'd given him £1000 to spend, it wouldn't have gone back to broken because he'd have got more done/changed/cleaned/whatever.
Who knows? But leaping to charges of incompetence or dishonesty because an electrical gremlin isn't banished at the first attempt AND within an arbitrary price target is more than a bit off.
If you hire a great barrister but still lose the case, he won't do your appeal for free. And it doesn't mean he isn't a great barrister.
SpeckledJim said:
Sorry, that's just not the case. You've paid for an expert's time. That's all.
It went from broken to fixed in his care. Result. If it's gone back to broken again, that may be because he's got something wrong, or more likely, the problem is bigger than whatever he was able to do for £500.
Perhaps if you'd given him £1000 to spend, it wouldn't have gone back to broken because he'd have got more done/changed/cleaned/whatever.
Sorry, but there was no budget set, just if the costs were going to be over a certain pre-agreed level then the customer should be contacted. It went from broken to fixed in his care. Result. If it's gone back to broken again, that may be because he's got something wrong, or more likely, the problem is bigger than whatever he was able to do for £500.
Perhaps if you'd given him £1000 to spend, it wouldn't have gone back to broken because he'd have got more done/changed/cleaned/whatever.
If the garage couldn't do the repair for less than £500 why have they said they had?
JM said:
SpeckledJim said:
Sorry, that's just not the case. You've paid for an expert's time. That's all.
It went from broken to fixed in his care. Result. If it's gone back to broken again, that may be because he's got something wrong, or more likely, the problem is bigger than whatever he was able to do for £500.
Perhaps if you'd given him £1000 to spend, it wouldn't have gone back to broken because he'd have got more done/changed/cleaned/whatever.
Sorry, but there was no budget set, just if the costs were going to be over a certain pre-agreed level then the customer should be contacted. It went from broken to fixed in his care. Result. If it's gone back to broken again, that may be because he's got something wrong, or more likely, the problem is bigger than whatever he was able to do for £500.
Perhaps if you'd given him £1000 to spend, it wouldn't have gone back to broken because he'd have got more done/changed/cleaned/whatever.
If the garage couldn't do the repair for less than £500 why have they said they had?
The repair WAS done, it WAS fixed. To all appearances, they'd fixed the problem within the OP's target. Great job, surely?
If it came back, there are a thousand potential reasons why. Fixing electrical gremlins really isn't easy, and often there are many small issues combining to manifest in a single larger issue.
If it was a simple problem, it would have stayed fixed. For it to be fixed and then recur, that suggests something or somethings complicated.
StoatInACoat said:
If it costs more than £500 to fix you phone the customer and tell them. You don't just do £500 worth of work and leave it at that without telling them, that's ridiculous.
When it left them, it was fixed. Should they have carried on working and changing things AFTER the problem disappeared?Then you'd REALLY have grounds for a complaint thread.
Much depends on the problem and the solution.
Without details it's just too hard to answer.
An electrical problem could be a blown fuse. The fuse is replaced.
A week later the fuse goes again, on investigation a dodgy earth is found in the lights causing the fuse to blow.
This is fixed, but the fuse blows again.
Another bad earth is found on the windscreen wipers.
Sure. A fuse doesn't cost £400.
But the point is that a nonspecific fault is very different to a specific one.
Without details it's just too hard to answer.
An electrical problem could be a blown fuse. The fuse is replaced.
A week later the fuse goes again, on investigation a dodgy earth is found in the lights causing the fuse to blow.
This is fixed, but the fuse blows again.
Another bad earth is found on the windscreen wipers.
Sure. A fuse doesn't cost £400.
But the point is that a nonspecific fault is very different to a specific one.
pti said:
Were you the one that worked on the car SpeckledJim? 
Just got the bit between my teeth!If a garage was liable for every recurring fault never recurring again once they'd had it in for the afternoon, there'd be no garages left by the end of the year.
I think most have no idea of the different things and different ways that can throw faults on a car, and how a part C over there needs cooperation from part Y over here and bus 4 over there relies on messages from a sensor ABC over there, and so on...
And then once it's all working, the temperature changes and part F throws an intermittent wobbler that causes the original fault A to reappear but from a different route...
SpeckledJim said:
I think most have no idea of the different things and different ways that can throw faults on a car, and how a part C over there needs cooperation from part Y over here and bus 4 over there relies on messages from a sensor ABC over there, and so on...
Patronising. Most do, this is a car forum populated by people who have more than a passing interest in cars and are more familiar than most with how they work. And most of us weren't born yesterday.
Two weeks is not an acceptable length of time for a repair costing £500 (which is not an insignificant amount of money) to last. Be it a car, house, tooth or whatever.
Edited by StoatInACoat on Tuesday 22 October 15:03
As long as people keep changing their garages at the drop of a hat this sort of thing will happen. In This case IMHO the garage has done the right thing.
I would take it back and suggest that they find out the true cost of repair, and that you should pay the difference between the original not fixed fix and the completed job. This way you are not really out of pocket- you have to pay for the completed repair anyway- and if it turns out that they missed something they should have caught they should pay the extra time to sort it out. You pay for the parts.
I would take it back and suggest that they find out the true cost of repair, and that you should pay the difference between the original not fixed fix and the completed job. This way you are not really out of pocket- you have to pay for the completed repair anyway- and if it turns out that they missed something they should have caught they should pay the extra time to sort it out. You pay for the parts.
I think it depends on whether the repair has failed, or whether it was not diagnosed correctly.
If it's failed then it's clear that the garage should sort at no cost in my opinion.
If it was something else then it's down to discussion with the garage, explaining what else it could be, and what unnecessary work has been carried out, and how reasonable / unreasonable it was to have missed it in the first place. I'd like to think that the parts cost means that you've already replaced something that could later fail, so no disadvantage, and that perhaps the garage would offer some compromise in labour on the basis that you've paid to replace a part early unnecessarily.
If it's failed then it's clear that the garage should sort at no cost in my opinion.
If it was something else then it's down to discussion with the garage, explaining what else it could be, and what unnecessary work has been carried out, and how reasonable / unreasonable it was to have missed it in the first place. I'd like to think that the parts cost means that you've already replaced something that could later fail, so no disadvantage, and that perhaps the garage would offer some compromise in labour on the basis that you've paid to replace a part early unnecessarily.
StoatInACoat said:
SpeckledJim said:
I think most have no idea of the different things and different ways that can throw faults on a car, and how a part C over there needs cooperation from part Y over here and bus 4 over there relies on messages from a sensor ABC over there, and so on...
Patronising. Most do, this is a car forum populated by people who have more than a passing interest in cars and are more familiar than most with how they work. And most of us weren't born yesterday.
Two weeks is not an acceptable length of time for a repair costing £500 (which is not an insignificant amount of money) to last. Be it a car, house, tooth or whatever.
Edited by StoatInACoat on Tuesday 22 October 15:03
Turns out £500 got a temporary fix, and probably some valuable information about what it isn't. Perhaps £1000 will fix it properly. Perhaps it just needs another £20. Perhaps you could spend another £5000 on the best advice money can buy and still not crack it. It's the OP's car, not the garage's, so that issue remains the OP's
The garage isn't (necessarily) responsible for whatever complexity of problem your car has just because you've given them an afternoon to look at it.
SpeckledJim said:
StoatInACoat said:
SpeckledJim said:
I think most have no idea of the different things and different ways that can throw faults on a car, and how a part C over there needs cooperation from part Y over here and bus 4 over there relies on messages from a sensor ABC over there, and so on...
Patronising. Most do, this is a car forum populated by people who have more than a passing interest in cars and are more familiar than most with how they work. And most of us weren't born yesterday.
Two weeks is not an acceptable length of time for a repair costing £500 (which is not an insignificant amount of money) to last. Be it a car, house, tooth or whatever.
Edited by StoatInACoat on Tuesday 22 October 15:03
Turns out £500 got a temporary fix, and probably some valuable information about what it isn't. Perhaps £1000 will fix it properly. Perhaps it just needs another £20. Perhaps you could spend another £5000 on the best advice money can buy and still not crack it. It's the OP's car, not the garage's, so that issue remains the OP's
The garage isn't (necessarily) responsible for whatever complexity of problem your car has just because you've given them an afternoon to look at it.
I don't think that will be the case here anyway. It's either a fix that has failed, or a misdiagnosis. Misdiagnosis may be completely reasonable, or not depending on what it is.
surveyor said:
Now your wrong. If it's a temporary fix he should have been told, especially at £500 and given the choice of a proper fix.
I don't think that will be the case here anyway. It's either a fix that has failed, or a misdiagnosis. Misdiagnosis may be completely reasonable, or not depending on what it is.
Nobody knew it was a temporary fix until it failed again. Thats the point. Once it looks like it's fixed, the fault has gone, and a quick test drive doesnt bring it back, you stop work, in the customer's best interests.I don't think that will be the case here anyway. It's either a fix that has failed, or a misdiagnosis. Misdiagnosis may be completely reasonable, or not depending on what it is.
OP is halfway to solving a £1000 problem. Or a quarter of the way to solving a £2000 problem. How can anyone know until it's actually solved?
Agree with your point about diagnosis.
226bhp said:
This ^^
It would help, where has the OP gone?
Sorry for the slow reply. Here's what they put on the invoice:It would help, where has the OP gone?
Investigate various electrical faults. Carried out scan test. Checked fuses - okay. Checked wiring continuity to BCM. Found no earth to pin 12 on CR9. Locate and repair poor pin contact on side harness connection.
Total £416.66 labour + VAT @20% = £499.99
226bhp said:
This ^^
It would help, where has the OP gone?
Sorry for the slow reply. Here's what they put on the invoice:It would help, where has the OP gone?
Investigate various electrical faults. Carried out scan test. Checked fuses - okay. Checked wiring continuity to BCM. Found no earth to pin 12 on CR9. Locate and repair poor pin contact on side harness connection.
Total £416.66 labour + VAT @20% = £499.99
Geekman said:
226bhp said:
This ^^
It would help, where has the OP gone?
Sorry for the slow reply. Here's what they put on the invoice:It would help, where has the OP gone?
Investigate various electrical faults. Carried out scan test. Checked fuses - okay. Checked wiring continuity to BCM. Found no earth to pin 12 on CR9. Locate and repair poor pin contact on side harness connection.
Total £416.66 labour + VAT @20% = £499.99
That's taken quite a lot of time to fault find on the face of it.
SpeckledJim said:
Mr2Mike said:
SpeckledJim said:
Next time you get a bill from the garage, for something without a definite cause, you'll notice you pay for their time. Not the results.
Fixed price servicing is different to diagnosis and remedy work. You've given them an open-ended 'mystery' task. If you don't trust them to honestly work towards that solving the problem, take your car elsewhere.
No garage is going to promise to cure an electrical problem for a fixed fee when they don't know what the cause is. Cars are just too complicated, and parts too expensive, for them to leave themselves open like that.
Take the dentist analogy - you take your mouth in and say 'it hurts, you've got £250, go!" and expect the problem solved. Doesn't work like that, does it?
So you are effectively paying for the level of incompetence of the garage staff. The more useless they are at diagnosing and rectifying problems, the more you pay,Fixed price servicing is different to diagnosis and remedy work. You've given them an open-ended 'mystery' task. If you don't trust them to honestly work towards that solving the problem, take your car elsewhere.
No garage is going to promise to cure an electrical problem for a fixed fee when they don't know what the cause is. Cars are just too complicated, and parts too expensive, for them to leave themselves open like that.
Take the dentist analogy - you take your mouth in and say 'it hurts, you've got £250, go!" and expect the problem solved. Doesn't work like that, does it?
Except...
A good garage (which this may or may not be) will get the problem solved as quickly and cheaply as possible, in the best interests of the 'long-game' of repeat business and a good reputation.
Do you honestly think a workshop manager should look at a car that has a non-specified electrical problem and say "ok, we'll fix it for £500" whilst not knowing if the issue is a £15 relay or a £1500 ECU?
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