RE: Harry Metcalfe talks JLR Special Ops
Discussion
Nice idea, but presently this smacks of largely a cosmetic marketing exercise and not worth £135k.
Its only 25bhp more than the R, and bearing in mind the heavy weight F-type, 80kgs is insignificant. I wager that they have added a bigger supercharger to increase the power and chopped the roof off to cut down the weight. Doing this is hardly equivalent to the work that goes into turning a 911 in to a GT3 is it? So what is the customer paying for exactly, where is the value for money? Its cars like the RS - GT3 range of Porsches and Ferrari's GTO and CS - Speciale that command not only the respect but also significant appreciation in the long term, because of the amount of work which goes in to making them special. If they made substantive internal revisions to the engine, and the car weighed significantly less (i.e. 200-300kgs), then yes, I think it would garner a lot more attention and seriously tempt prospective buyers of Porsche, especially if it were also to partake in races.
This effort from Jaguar seems on the face of it to pale in comparison. I like H Metcalfe’s work –he is a genuine car enthusiast. Hopefully he will see to it that JSO are persuaded not to become largely a cosmetic/Bodykit operation like McLaren’s Special Ops’ Department.
Its only 25bhp more than the R, and bearing in mind the heavy weight F-type, 80kgs is insignificant. I wager that they have added a bigger supercharger to increase the power and chopped the roof off to cut down the weight. Doing this is hardly equivalent to the work that goes into turning a 911 in to a GT3 is it? So what is the customer paying for exactly, where is the value for money? Its cars like the RS - GT3 range of Porsches and Ferrari's GTO and CS - Speciale that command not only the respect but also significant appreciation in the long term, because of the amount of work which goes in to making them special. If they made substantive internal revisions to the engine, and the car weighed significantly less (i.e. 200-300kgs), then yes, I think it would garner a lot more attention and seriously tempt prospective buyers of Porsche, especially if it were also to partake in races.
This effort from Jaguar seems on the face of it to pale in comparison. I like H Metcalfe’s work –he is a genuine car enthusiast. Hopefully he will see to it that JSO are persuaded not to become largely a cosmetic/Bodykit operation like McLaren’s Special Ops’ Department.
Pistachio said:
I think it is a great car but it hasn't won any races unlike the D Type that was a race car you could drive on the road.
credibility is the key to Jag success not just looking back in history
Nail on head.credibility is the key to Jag success not just looking back in history
Motorsport = credibility
Look at Cobra and the Ford total performance concept...
GT racing is a much better fit for Jaguar than F1 ever was.
RenesisEvo said:
Pistachio said:
I think it is a great car but it hasn't won any races unlike the D Type that was a race car you could drive on the road.
The problem today is that you can't really race a road car in any meaningful way. By the time you've made it safe, competitive and compliant to all the rules it's far removed from a road car, and would be unbearable to all but the extremely dedicated if you were to try driving on the road.Whilst I am pleased to see JLR pushing their special operations, and kudos to Metcalfe for putting his money where his mouth is, I just can't shake the feeling this is another outlet of vulgarity for the wealthy. Suddenly we have Q by Aston Martin, MSO (McLaren), as well as the older, more established ones like Porsche Exclusive, BMW Individual, and going back further, Rolls Royce Bespoke, to name but a few. I'm all for one-offs and coachbuilt specials (e.g. Glickenhaus' P4/5, Clapton's SP12 EC, McLaren X-1, Aston Martin CC100), as they provide interesting stories and curio for the enthusiast, but we're now arriving at the situation where everyone's car is unique, just like everyone else's...
I love the fact that Jaguar are putting Project 7 into production, I'm sure we will learn more about the car in the future in terms of changes from standard but the fact they are doing it is what matters at the moment. There have been rumours of a Jaguar return to racing and the F-Type R Coupe surely has to be a good base for it so hopefully there will be something great to come there such as a GT3 version.
One question about the Project 7 though - the photos show a LHD car with the fairing behind the driver, are they doing two versions with reversed fairings according to where the steering wheel is?
One question about the Project 7 though - the photos show a LHD car with the fairing behind the driver, are they doing two versions with reversed fairings according to where the steering wheel is?
What I find interesting about most of these special ops divisions at manufacturers is that they fundamentally work along two core lines: either add extra performance or add extra trim.
That is not to say this is bad but all it is really doing is trying to bring in-house what aftermarket firms are doing.
What I would prefer to see instead is limited runs of totally different body shells. I think it would be much more special to see a standard chassis/drivetrain with a totally different shell than basically the same shell with an adjust ECU and a few trim bits stuck on (massive exaggeration for effect).
That is not to say this is bad but all it is really doing is trying to bring in-house what aftermarket firms are doing.
What I would prefer to see instead is limited runs of totally different body shells. I think it would be much more special to see a standard chassis/drivetrain with a totally different shell than basically the same shell with an adjust ECU and a few trim bits stuck on (massive exaggeration for effect).
chelme said:
Nice idea, but presently this smacks of largely a cosmetic marketing exercise and not worth £135k.
Marketing you say , but "the SO division represents a modern form of specialism". Which I imagine was probably translated to and from Chinese a few times until it stopped making sense.
suffolk009 said:
They have to go racing again. It's their heritage. Without racing, their sporting credentials are nearly as daft as the Bentleys of the 80s and 90s.
I'd add that they need to be competitive too. As someone who wishes AM to do well, I was really pleased to see that their V12 and V8 Vantage cars were so competitive recently. Its this level of performance that get people noticing a brand, not body kits and stickers...Edited by chelme on Thursday 26th June 14:07
Edited by chelme on Thursday 26th June 14:09
Pistachio said:
Not quite true as Porsche do a nice trade in GT3 911 which are linked to motor racing. This was my point. Dont just produce specials just because of history, create specials that are linked to making history for instance winning at GT3 category possibly. This was the credibility I was talking about
Good example and I see where you are coming from. I think that might be straying into the arena of homologation specials. I would love to see more of those - they resulted in a swathe of mad, special, unique cars that have become cemented in automotive folklore. I think the last attempt of any note was the BMW E90 320si. The Project 7 is unlikely to ever see competition, sadly.suffolk009 said:
They have to go racing again. It's their heritage. Without racing, their sporting credentials are nearly as daft as the Bentleys of the 80s and 90s.
well keep your ears up as They will be back at Le mans in 2016 with red bull liveried LMP1 car and a certain Mr Newey on the design team...................................
100SRV said:
Pistachio said:
I think it is a great car but it hasn't won any races unlike the D Type that was a race car you could drive on the road.
credibility is the key to Jag success not just looking back in history
Nail on head.credibility is the key to Jag success not just looking back in history
Motorsport = credibility
Look at Cobra and the Ford total performance concept...
GT racing is a much better fit for Jaguar than F1 ever was.
Take the thing racing. Prove it's worth it's spuds. Build a hardcore motorsports version.
Despite building some wholly dull cars, Audi manages to draw motorsport allusions with it's impressive Le Mans TDI success, to it's uninspiring, family wagon A4 road cars.
Jaguar arguably has a considerably less onerous task, drawing links from it's success of old, to a new breed of cars able to compete with Audi, Porsche, BMW. As mentioned previously, a GT series F-Type (GT3?) and some podium positions would probably do enough to cement this in people's consciousness.
Oh and Harry, I'm available for hire has your marketing strategist
It's an interesting concept, and I like the idea of showing a bit of heritage / lineage to the D-Type, with the hump and the stripe. It's great that it's useable as well, rather than something that can be used for 3 days a year in the UK - although details on the roof don't seem to have appeared anywhere...
However, I do have "issues" with it. That spoiler, is quite honestly, dreadful. Hopefully it has a functional purpose because aesthetically it ruins the lines of the car. I suppose, the question for me has to be "is it special enough?" It looks good, but it would have been nice to see some boundaries pushed a little bit more - a manual box would have done that, and evoked the spirit of the D-type a little better, IMO.
However, I do have "issues" with it. That spoiler, is quite honestly, dreadful. Hopefully it has a functional purpose because aesthetically it ruins the lines of the car. I suppose, the question for me has to be "is it special enough?" It looks good, but it would have been nice to see some boundaries pushed a little bit more - a manual box would have done that, and evoked the spirit of the D-type a little better, IMO.
SO sounds like a sensible initiative. Based on the annoucements it is home to an interesting and experienced blend of people. The terms of reference offer them immense scope for some innovative ideas. We already know about two - the five lightweight Jaguars and the 250 Project 7s. That is not a bad start.
There are seveal things they could do. Such as substituting carbon fibre panels to replace the exterior aluminium panels (I read somewhere that their body frames are adaptable for this). Such as running a one make racing series for Project 7 cars (cf the Bowler series for Defender owners getting into shape for the Dakar). Such as finding a latter day Group 44 operation for a wider sports car racing operation (Group 44 was an immensely successful US outfit on the US racing scene with Triumphs, MGs and later Jaguar). And for products with zero appeal to PHers, on the LandRover front, creating serious overland/camping versions of the new Discoveries and the Defender replacement when it arrives and working with equipment specialists to make it the vehicle of choice for such applications (as once was the case). According to his Autocar interview, John Edwards was told by Dr Speth that running SO was the best job to have in JLR. He must surely be right.
There are seveal things they could do. Such as substituting carbon fibre panels to replace the exterior aluminium panels (I read somewhere that their body frames are adaptable for this). Such as running a one make racing series for Project 7 cars (cf the Bowler series for Defender owners getting into shape for the Dakar). Such as finding a latter day Group 44 operation for a wider sports car racing operation (Group 44 was an immensely successful US outfit on the US racing scene with Triumphs, MGs and later Jaguar). And for products with zero appeal to PHers, on the LandRover front, creating serious overland/camping versions of the new Discoveries and the Defender replacement when it arrives and working with equipment specialists to make it the vehicle of choice for such applications (as once was the case). According to his Autocar interview, John Edwards was told by Dr Speth that running SO was the best job to have in JLR. He must surely be right.
SO sounds like a sensible initiative. Based on the annoucements it is home to an interesting and experienced blend of people. The terms of reference offer them immense scope for some innovative ideas. We already know about two - the five lightweight Jaguars and the 250 Project 7s. That is not a bad start.
There are seveal things they could do. Such as substituting carbon fibre panels to replace the exterior aluminium panels (I read somewhere that their body frames are adaptable for this). Such as running a one make racing series for Project 7 cars (cf the Bowler series for Defender owners getting into shape for the Dakar). Such as finding a latter day Group 44 operation for a wider sports car racing operation (Group 44 was an immensely successful US outfit on the US racing scene with Triumphs, MGs and later Jaguar). And for products with zero appeal to PHers, on the LandRover front, creating serious overland/camping versions of the new Discoveries and the Defender replacement when it arrives and working with equipment specialists to make it the vehicle of choice for such applications (as once was the case). According to his Autocar interview, John Edwards was told by Dr Speth that running SO was the best job to have in JLR. He must surely be right.
There are seveal things they could do. Such as substituting carbon fibre panels to replace the exterior aluminium panels (I read somewhere that their body frames are adaptable for this). Such as running a one make racing series for Project 7 cars (cf the Bowler series for Defender owners getting into shape for the Dakar). Such as finding a latter day Group 44 operation for a wider sports car racing operation (Group 44 was an immensely successful US outfit on the US racing scene with Triumphs, MGs and later Jaguar). And for products with zero appeal to PHers, on the LandRover front, creating serious overland/camping versions of the new Discoveries and the Defender replacement when it arrives and working with equipment specialists to make it the vehicle of choice for such applications (as once was the case). According to his Autocar interview, John Edwards was told by Dr Speth that running SO was the best job to have in JLR. He must surely be right.
RenesisEvo said:
Whilst I am pleased to see JLR pushing their special operations, and kudos to Metcalfe for putting his money where his mouth is, I just can't shake the feeling this is another outlet of vulgarity for the wealthy. Suddenly we have Q by Aston Martin, MSO (McLaren), as well as the older, more established ones like Porsche Exclusive, BMW Individual, and going back further, Rolls Royce Bespoke, to name but a few.
I don't get what you mean by 'suddenly'. These type of operations have been around for years, for most manufacturers, Jaguar included. 15 years ago, it was called SVO (Special Vehicle Operations) who came up with this:
XK180
and the Manual X100 XKR
(as well as the XK with the rear mounted gun for the James Bond film)
RenesisEvo said:
I'm all for one-offs and coachbuilt specials (e.g. Glickenhaus' P4/5, Clapton's SP12 EC, McLaren X-1, Aston Martin CC100), as they provide interesting stories and curio for the enthusiast, but we're now arriving at the situation where everyone's car is unique, just like everyone else's...
Again, I'm not understanding the point you're trying to make. Cars have been 'personalise-able' from just after Henry Ford said about 'having any colour you want so long as it's black' onwards. Look at Mini for example.
Even if it is an outlet for the wealthy, again I don't understand the issue with it.
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