RE: Lotus Evora 400 lap time

[ORD]

Simples: very low and light cars are much easier to set up to ride comfortably without sacrificing handling. It's ridiculous to compare a lotus to something 500kg heavier and much taller and then say 'Why is the bigger car so unforgiving? The Lotus has a much less jittery ride'. No st! It has a lot less to cope with and retain composure.

[RobM77]

ORD said:

Simples: very low and light cars are much easier to set up to ride comfortably without sacrificing handling. It's ridiculous to compare a lotus to something 500kg heavier and much taller and then say 'Why is the bigger car so unforgiving? The Lotus has a much less jittery ride'. No st! It has a lot less to cope with and retain composure.

I'm not sure we're comparing an Elise to a Vectra though are we? We're comparing a 900kg Elise 111R Touring to a 900kg MR2, a 1400kg Evora S to a 1400 Cayman S or even perhaps a 1400 kg Esprit to a 1400kg Porsche 933 and a 1400kg NSX.

[McSam]

HeMightBeBanned said:

McSam said:

ETA: For those who've run at Blyton, Richard's time was a standing start from the marshall's post onto the Eastern layout, with the end beams at the braking point for the square right before the pit entry. He did a 75.09, just the one run. My best of four in my E36 328i was an 80.63

For some sort of reference, I did a 76.99s at Blyton Park's Outer Circuit (http://www.blytonpark.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/circuit4.jpg) at a sprint last year in my '99 S1 Elise. It has 135bhp, weighs 730kg and was running Avon ZZR tyres.

Nice. If you had the chicane in on the back straight, the Outer layout is about two seconds quicker than Eastern in most cars - though an Elise, being much better through the twisties than down straights, would probably post more similar laptimes between the two.

Edited by McSam on Friday 1st May 16:08

[ORD]

RobM77 said:

I'm not sure we're comparing an Elise to a Vectra though are we? We're comparing a 900kg Elise 111R Touring to a 900kg MR2, a 1400kg Evora S to a 1400 Cayman S or even perhaps a 1400 kg Esprit to a 1400kg Porsche 933 and a 1400kg NSX.

We might be here and now, but the motoring press always refer to Lotus' ride and handling balance as though it could be reproduced in much heavier and taller cars.

I agree with you that L does seem to outdo cars even when the weight (but not height) is similar.

[RobM77]

ORD said:

RobM77 said:

I'm not sure we're comparing an Elise to a Vectra though are we? We're comparing a 900kg Elise 111R Touring to a 900kg MR2, a 1400kg Evora S to a 1400 Cayman S or even perhaps a 1400 kg Esprit to a 1400kg Porsche 933 and a 1400kg NSX.

We might be here and now, but the motoring press always refer to Lotus' ride and handling balance as though it could be reproduced in much heavier and taller cars.

I agree with you that L does seem to outdo cars even when the weight (but not height) is similar.

Surely the Cayman has a lower CofG than an Evora doesn't it? I don't kmow the figures, but I'm assuming based on the position and design of their engines.

[redroadster]

Wished they had made it look a bit wilder more super car than just warmed over ,I admire Lamborghini styling that would pull punters into lotus.

[moribund]

That's a fantastic reduction in lap time. I guess this is the point where we have to be careful what we wish for - hope the improved laptime doesn't come at the expense of the amazing ride/handling compromise of the old car. But amazing ride/handling doesn't sell cars as we've seen, pub Top Trumps does

[ORD]

RobM77 said:

Surely the Cayman has a lower CofG than an Evora doesn't it? I don't kmow the figures, but I'm assuming based on the position and design of their engines.

I was just thinking that. Engine is an advantage to the Cayman - quite a lot lower in the Pork and a fair old weight in both cars. But for most other things, the mass will be lower in the Evora, won't it? I really notice the lower hip point if I pull alongside a Lotus. Driver lower; doors much lower; panels lower; etc.

Interesting to find out, though.

As an aside, the doors on my car are bloody ridiculously heavy. The 981 and the 991 have much lighter doors. An obvious and quite easy weight saving.

[kambites]

I remember looking this up a while ago and if I'm remembering correctly, there was surprisingly little in it either way - no more than a few mm. I vaguely remember the Cayman being lower than the Evora but the 911 slightly higher (this would probably have been the 997, 987 and non-supercharged Evora).

I was never entirely convinced by the accuracy of the sources I found, though.

Edited by kambites on Friday 1st May 22:10

[AER]

It's a shame it goes so fast given that it has such a hideous backside!

[LasseV]

öh, other Evora's doesn't have a LSD?

What you guys think, could this 400 model push prices down for older Evora models?

[lotus83]

lotus has to this day never built a bad car.. sure some bad race cars but never a bad car. The reliability hasn't always been great but they have always been superb to drive.


lotus elite
lotus 7
lotus eleven
lotus elan
lotus elan +2
lotus europa
lotus cortina
lotus esprit
lotus carlton
lotus talbot
lotus elan m100
lotus elise
lotus exige
vaxhaull vx220
lotus europa
lotus 340r
lotus 2-eleven
lotus evora


all great cars

[shoestring7]

lotus83 said:

lotus has to this day never built a bad car.. sure some bad race cars but never a bad car. The reliability hasn't always been great but they have always been superb to drive.


lotus elite
lotus 7
lotus eleven
lotus elan
lotus elan +2
lotus europa
lotus cortina
lotus esprit
lotus carlton
lotus talbot
lotus elan m100
lotus elise
lotus exige
vaxhaull vx220
lotus europa
lotus 340r
lotus 2-eleven
lotus evora


all great cars

The (50s) Elite was by any rational standard a bad car.

Actually, coming to think of it, the 70s one wasn't much better.

SS7

[ads_green]

TWPC said:

'You have to wonder sometimes why anyone bothers with adaptive dampers when Lotus does the conventional methods so well but that's a discussion for another time.'

Good question.
I understand that delivering good ride and handling without adjustable dampers is a difficult job, but I cannot believe it is so hard that only Lotus and Ford have the staff able to do it.

So I think the answers are 'marketing' & 'profits'. Adjustable damping gives the punter another button to press and the manufacturer another system that may go wrong & need an expensive repair.

From my experience it seems that the active stuff is either too firm in sport and too soft in road.
The real issue is that with the number of setup combinations it's hard to find one that works.

With conventional setups the engineers have nowhere to hide and must get one setup that does everything. I've had several lotus cars and as expected this is something they excel at. As above, being lighter makes this job a little easier.
However my old b7 rs4 had one of the best oem suspension setups I've ever found. Soft on roads but very little body roll and sharp response. Sure it is a bit fragile (Google 'rs4 drc ') but when its working it has no competition. And 100% mechanical - no electric at all.

[stuno1]

I wonder how close an evora s tuned to 400hp would be to the 400 times. Clearly the 400 is lighter with more tech but i (and maybe others) will be buying the s and sending it to hanger 111 as the 400 is out of reach.

Stu

[The Wookie]

ORD said:

RobM77 said:

Surely the Cayman has a lower CofG than an Evora doesn't it? I don't kmow the figures, but I'm assuming based on the position and design of their engines.

I was just thinking that. Engine is an advantage to the Cayman - quite a lot lower in the Pork and a fair old weight in both cars. But for most other things, the mass will be lower in the Evora, won't it? I really notice the lower hip point if I pull alongside a Lotus. Driver lower; doors much lower; panels lower; etc.

Interesting to find out, though.

As an aside, the doors on my car are bloody ridiculously heavy. The 981 and the 991 have much lighter doors. An obvious and quite easy weight saving.

The Evora GT4 is a nightmare for oversteer and lunching rear tyres because of the CofG compared to some of the stuff it races against. The engine is a lump mounted back and high and a fibreglass roof isn't as much of a benefit as you might think. The driver also sits proportionally quite high compared to other similar cars because of the tub. The car rides and handles well for what it is, the Cayman should be better.

Also Lotus Engineering have done a good job tuning more conventional stuff for other manufacturers.

They do well as it's a small team who know what they're doing and aren't too constrained by an overbearing marketing department. There are plenty of R&H engineers around the world who know what they're doing but plenty of people setting and applying benchmarks who don't!

[RobM77]

The Wookie said:

ORD said:

RobM77 said:

Surely the Cayman has a lower CofG than an Evora doesn't it? I don't kmow the figures, but I'm assuming based on the position and design of their engines.

I was just thinking that. Engine is an advantage to the Cayman - quite a lot lower in the Pork and a fair old weight in both cars. But for most other things, the mass will be lower in the Evora, won't it? I really notice the lower hip point if I pull alongside a Lotus. Driver lower; doors much lower; panels lower; etc.

Interesting to find out, though.

As an aside, the doors on my car are bloody ridiculously heavy. The 981 and the 991 have much lighter doors. An obvious and quite easy weight saving.

The Evora GT4 is a nightmare for oversteer and lunching rear tyres because of the CofG compared to some of the stuff it races against. The engine is a lump mounted back and high and a fibreglass roof isn't as much of a benefit as you might think. The driver also sits proportionally quite high compared to other similar cars because of the tub. The car rides and handles well for what it is, the Cayman should be better.

Also Lotus Engineering have done a good job tuning more conventional stuff for other manufacturers.

They do well as it's a small team who know what they're doing and aren't too constrained by an overbearing marketing department. There are plenty of R&H engineers around the world who know what they're doing but plenty of people setting and applying benchmarks who don't!

This was basically my original point (from a few pages back). The Cayman has every right to ride and handle better than the Evora, but as with other Lotuses, the Evora does amazingly well for its compromised mechanical layout, and the Cayman surprisingly not as well, especially given Porsche's vast experience (it's an utterly amazing car though, don't get me wrong, I just expected a little more from the ones I've driven).

My 2-Eleven has a very rearward weight bias, which you feel if you get it sideways and after 15-20 minutes on track on a summer's day when the rear tyres start to overheat, but aside from those two things it's absolutely beautiful to drive in a way that it shouldn't be with such a light front end and that big heavy supercharged engine over the rear wheels.

The new Exige V6 Coupé takes things on another level again, with ride and handling that's bordering on magical. The compliance over the bumps coupled with such low roll in the corners is something I've not experienced in any other car before.

[hondansx]

The new Boxster and Cayman have an incredibly good ride, even with the optional 20" wheels.

Always found the comments about Lotus producing cars that rode well far fetched; i thought my Elise and VX220 had a pretty punishing ride.

The issue with the Lotus' is that they tend to have a narrow track and tyres compared to others. Why we'd all say we are in it for the enjoyment, the allure of a car that is faster in a straight-line and around a certain German track does sell. And given Lotus are bragging about a Hethel time whilst dancing around the issue of no 'Ring time, i'd guess they realise that...

[CTE]

It would be interesting to see how a comparable Evora/Cayman do on lap times when driven by a decent driver instead of some numpty journalist who is paid by the advertising department from whichever car manufacturer they are reporting on?
Not that it really matters because most performance cars are capable of going far faster than you can sensibly go on the road, and if someone wants to drive like an idiot, they can do so in any car.

[itcaptainslow]

StottyEvo said:

I wonder if they'll test it at the Ring, if it has the potential to upset Porsche...

They have been-I was out there a couple of weeks ago and there were two of them lapping in the camo paintjob you see here-may even be the same car.

I've got a video of one on my phone-they sound utterly epic.