Are modern cars becoming too.. accomplished?
Discussion
Just to say great post - haven't read anything as sensible as that in a long while.
havoc said:
I tend to agree.
Modern cars are becoming more capable and arguably more homogenous than ever (despite the increasing number of niches-within-niches that manufacturers are inventing). But they're losing their character.
I think 'character' (no, not the TVR style
) in a car comes from 3 sources:-
- Aural - how the engine sounds to you in the cabin. Most modern cars are woeful here compared to their elder siblings - blame almost obligatory turbos and emissions legislation. Even where they DO sound good (F-Type, Golf-R...), often it's clearly artificially-induced or theatrically-engineered in - it doesn't feel 'natural' anymore...
- Kinesthetic - simply speaking, how it 'feels' to drive - pedal responsiveness/feedback and steering responsiveness/feedback. Here the engineers have over-egged the responsiveness - aggressive DBW throttles, ultra-quick steering and over-servo'd brakes removing the finesse from a drive - while at the same time removing the feedback element. In this regard cars ARE becoming like a computer game...
- Visual - how a car looks, both from the outside and from the driver's seat (interior ambience and look over the bonnet). Here it's mixed - some great looking cars (F-Type coupe take a bow), but some real dog's dinners. And the "view over the bonnet" typically isn't anymore - how many people can see anything of their bonnet from the driver's seat anymore?
Modern cars are becoming more capable and arguably more homogenous than ever (despite the increasing number of niches-within-niches that manufacturers are inventing). But they're losing their character.
I think 'character' (no, not the TVR style
) in a car comes from 3 sources:-- Aural - how the engine sounds to you in the cabin. Most modern cars are woeful here compared to their elder siblings - blame almost obligatory turbos and emissions legislation. Even where they DO sound good (F-Type, Golf-R...), often it's clearly artificially-induced or theatrically-engineered in - it doesn't feel 'natural' anymore...
- Kinesthetic - simply speaking, how it 'feels' to drive - pedal responsiveness/feedback and steering responsiveness/feedback. Here the engineers have over-egged the responsiveness - aggressive DBW throttles, ultra-quick steering and over-servo'd brakes removing the finesse from a drive - while at the same time removing the feedback element. In this regard cars ARE becoming like a computer game...
- Visual - how a car looks, both from the outside and from the driver's seat (interior ambience and look over the bonnet). Here it's mixed - some great looking cars (F-Type coupe take a bow), but some real dog's dinners. And the "view over the bonnet" typically isn't anymore - how many people can see anything of their bonnet from the driver's seat anymore?
I just took delivery of a facelift new BMW 320D M-sport touring - with manual gearbox in fact. Well - its a very impressive machine with incredible grip and extraordinary road holding. But to drive, its just like sitting at home on the sofa in front of the TV. Very comfortable.
I had a clapped out E91 before and that was definitely more fun to drive.
The best of all was a first generation 316 compact with puny engine and non-linear suspension. That was fun - especially when you learned how the back axle suddenly, under load, adjusted to a new equilibrium. definately not impressive, but real fun and real mastery too.
I had a clapped out E91 before and that was definitely more fun to drive.
The best of all was a first generation 316 compact with puny engine and non-linear suspension. That was fun - especially when you learned how the back axle suddenly, under load, adjusted to a new equilibrium. definately not impressive, but real fun and real mastery too.
Couldn't agree more, most modern cars have lost their 'fun' factor and just become a box of electrical safety components and synthesised sounds AND it wont be long before they drive themselves! 
My first car, a mini 998! Bucket loads of fun, grining from ear to ear and the most character you could get! Despite its crap reliability, having to wrap up warm inside and the rust! I progressed many years later to a Scooby and the exhaust note was just the most sublime, brilliant, beautiful sound I could imagine and even on the coldest mornings I would have the windows down to hear it pop and bring a smile to my face
Theseare the things that make cars great.
Now, I have a Bmw 135 coupe, honestly, it does everything you could want, starts first time, comfy, goes like the preverbial and doesnt sound too bad either, and yet, I don't get the smiles like I did with the other two!
As someone mentioned above, older cars were enginered to be brilliant through love for driving and engineering. Todays cars are just to sell to the masses using 'perfect' engineering. And for those that love driving and the feelings that it brings, modern cars will never satisfy! We live in sad times.
My first car, a mini 998! Bucket loads of fun, grining from ear to ear and the most character you could get! Despite its crap reliability, having to wrap up warm inside and the rust! I progressed many years later to a Scooby and the exhaust note was just the most sublime, brilliant, beautiful sound I could imagine and even on the coldest mornings I would have the windows down to hear it pop and bring a smile to my face
Theseare the things that make cars great. Now, I have a Bmw 135 coupe, honestly, it does everything you could want, starts first time, comfy, goes like the preverbial and doesnt sound too bad either, and yet, I don't get the smiles like I did with the other two!
As someone mentioned above, older cars were enginered to be brilliant through love for driving and engineering. Todays cars are just to sell to the masses using 'perfect' engineering. And for those that love driving and the feelings that it brings, modern cars will never satisfy! We live in sad times.
IMO modern cars in some respects are less safe. What's the best way to avoid getting hurt in an an accident? Avoid the accident in the first place!
A friend of mine drove my Elise recently. Unfortunately for him he got caught in a torrential downpour. He reflected after that he had automatically massively reduced his speed and increased the distance from the car in front as he felt through the steering the substantial loss of traction, and through the brakes knew how much his stopping distance has increased. He admitted that in his daily driver, a Mazda 6, he probably wouldn't have changed how he was driving as other than the rain hitting the windscreen, he wouldn't have known what was going on outside.
For me, driving a modern fast car is like watching your team on TV score an important goal in an important game. Driving an old school car is like being on the pitch and scoring that goal yourself.
A friend of mine drove my Elise recently. Unfortunately for him he got caught in a torrential downpour. He reflected after that he had automatically massively reduced his speed and increased the distance from the car in front as he felt through the steering the substantial loss of traction, and through the brakes knew how much his stopping distance has increased. He admitted that in his daily driver, a Mazda 6, he probably wouldn't have changed how he was driving as other than the rain hitting the windscreen, he wouldn't have known what was going on outside.
For me, driving a modern fast car is like watching your team on TV score an important goal in an important game. Driving an old school car is like being on the pitch and scoring that goal yourself.
I much prefer older cars for fun factor, but circumstances and work mean I need something new and reliable as I can't afford to be forever 'fettling' my day to day car, hence paying a monthly amount for a new car. It is what it is.
The most fun I've had in a car was an original Sport Ka. It was peppy enough, but an actual hoot to drive around B roads and never failed to make me smile. I don't think I've ever driven a powerful car and had as much fun, I much prefer the lack of power, and concentrate on the cars 'chuckability'. As said, modern cars don't seem to let you enjoy that childishness that exists in all of us.
The most fun I've had in a car was an original Sport Ka. It was peppy enough, but an actual hoot to drive around B roads and never failed to make me smile. I don't think I've ever driven a powerful car and had as much fun, I much prefer the lack of power, and concentrate on the cars 'chuckability'. As said, modern cars don't seem to let you enjoy that childishness that exists in all of us.
- *Off to AT for second hand Ka's.***
Two things:
1. Rose tinted glasses are very strong on this subject, of course you loved that 'mini/E30/205...ect', becuase for a lot of people that was at a time in your life you were prepared to drive like a loonie and you were going out and partying. It's a bit like asking people when the 'best' music was made, odds on it was when they were 15-25, funny that!
2. Having said that cars ARE too acomplished these days in that they are very boring below the speed limit (and some way above even). My feeling is the only way round it is to have two cars, I have an i3 for the work journey (the very antithesis of mechanical control - although fun in its own way, try and borrow one for a few days and you will see what i mean) and also have a 1980 SL for fun.
I feel like this is the best of both worlds, each car on there own would be very annoying for opposite reasons but together they make the perfect garage
(1 caveat is we also have the missus estate BMW for family duties so I guess now its three cars)
1. Rose tinted glasses are very strong on this subject, of course you loved that 'mini/E30/205...ect', becuase for a lot of people that was at a time in your life you were prepared to drive like a loonie and you were going out and partying. It's a bit like asking people when the 'best' music was made, odds on it was when they were 15-25, funny that!
2. Having said that cars ARE too acomplished these days in that they are very boring below the speed limit (and some way above even). My feeling is the only way round it is to have two cars, I have an i3 for the work journey (the very antithesis of mechanical control - although fun in its own way, try and borrow one for a few days and you will see what i mean) and also have a 1980 SL for fun.
I feel like this is the best of both worlds, each car on there own would be very annoying for opposite reasons but together they make the perfect garage
(1 caveat is we also have the missus estate BMW for family duties so I guess now its three cars)
trickywoo said:
Hold on. Are you saying a Corolla feels the same (or at least no more 'special') to drive a F Type or a VXR8?
I think you have that the wrong way around but even so if that's about what the op is saying, (and he didn't say they feel the same, but that they feel more similar than they would once have) then personally I agree.When Alfa stopped making RWD cars I tried 3 series BMWs as an alternative. I drove a few 4 and 6 cylinder E36s, didn't like them because they didn't wake up until they were being caned. At normal road speeds they just felt like an ordinary car and I could have been in a Corolla or something. It wasn't rewarding enough, for enough of the time. And I didn't like the steering.
The E46 was not much better.
I drove a Ferrari 360, and that too felt like a normal car - just better. Certainly the feel was there, the balance, the precision, but it didn't feel different, just better. I guess I'm old school and expect my fun cars to provide a bit more of a challenge to drive smoothly to the shops and back, something to constantly remind me that I'm in something different, like steering that chatters all the time, a heavy clutch, a particularly mechanical feel to the gearchange, stuff like that.
I think it's human nature and the cars that feel right are the ones you grew up with and learnt to drive in, the newer ones feel too refined.
I have one so I am completely biased...but my 2010 MX-5 is simply amazing in terms of feedback/lack of grip/low speed enjoyable handling and an over-riding sense of mechanical interaction.
I cannot think of another car for sale aside from the new MX-5 which offers the same sense of connection at "normal" speeds.
I cannot think of another car for sale aside from the new MX-5 which offers the same sense of connection at "normal" speeds.
Modern cars are fitted with all sorts of luxurious kit, although much of that is unecessary or desirable at best. They are (generally) not temperamental and, relative to older cars, they cocoon the driver from the outside world. Any "driver aids" to handling or traction flatter poor driving or moments of madness (to a point). The engines (bar VW....) are more efficent. When it does go wrong, you're pretty much bo**ocksed as far as DIY/roadside repair is concerned; it's very clever, but it cant work out if there is actually a problem or if is just a sensor that has gone. You operate a "system"......
By comparison, my MGA has no luxurious kit (OK, it has got the optional "heater"...), it is not temperamental because it is maintained properly. It certainly does not cocoon me from the outside world. It has no "driver aids" - I can feel any warning signs, rather then suddenly discover that computer controlled aids have run out of programme thresholds and talent. The entire electrical system is protected by two fuses; there are no electrical/electronic sensors. On the rare occasion that it has gone wrong, it has taken about 20 minutes of DIY repair or tweaking to get going again. You don't "operate" it - you drive it.
Modern Car - Nissan X-Trail - got one to get me from A to B and do everything I want; it's a good workhorse.
Old Car - MGA - got one, had it since 1981 and kept it because it's always fun and rewarding to drive and sling round corners.
MG Mark
By comparison, my MGA has no luxurious kit (OK, it has got the optional "heater"...), it is not temperamental because it is maintained properly. It certainly does not cocoon me from the outside world. It has no "driver aids" - I can feel any warning signs, rather then suddenly discover that computer controlled aids have run out of programme thresholds and talent. The entire electrical system is protected by two fuses; there are no electrical/electronic sensors. On the rare occasion that it has gone wrong, it has taken about 20 minutes of DIY repair or tweaking to get going again. You don't "operate" it - you drive it.
Modern Car - Nissan X-Trail - got one to get me from A to B and do everything I want; it's a good workhorse.
Old Car - MGA - got one, had it since 1981 and kept it because it's always fun and rewarding to drive and sling round corners.
MG Mark
Charlie Michael said:
I have one so I am completely biased...but my 2010 MX-5 is simply amazing in terms of feedback/lack of grip/low speed enjoyable handling and an over-riding sense of mechanical interaction.
I cannot think of another car for sale aside from the new MX-5 which offers the same sense of connection at "normal" speeds.
A lot of it is down to what you're used to. To me the mk3 MX5 feels like a big numb barge of a car. I cannot think of another car for sale aside from the new MX-5 which offers the same sense of connection at "normal" speeds.
I completely agree and I think Kambites, havoc and the OP sum up my own feelings and observations so well that I've not much to add.
Most cars of old with character probably had that character accidentally. What most people actually want in a car is the same as what I want from a washing machine (as kambites quite rightly says), and I'd add that what most performance car buyers probably want is a flash looking washing machine with a few fancy features. Driving for the sake of the pleasure of just driving, like one might surf, mountain bike or ski, has virtually vanished from modern road cars.
I'd like to think that some manufacturers do offer glimpses of light, I'm thinking primarily of all Lotus cars and the Toyota GT86, but both cars are heavily criticised and perhaps guided to future iterations by people who view and judge sports cars by numbers, not feelings.
Like many people, I own the best daily driver that I can find (relatively speaking!) and then find my solace by owning an older and more specialised car for weekends. That car sits in my garage alongside my bikes, windsurf boards and other sports stuff, which harks back to what I was just saying about few people enjoying cars like others enjoy skiing or mountain biking: for me this where driver's cars are heading - a minority interest sport or past-time, not a feature of a daily driver.
Most cars of old with character probably had that character accidentally. What most people actually want in a car is the same as what I want from a washing machine (as kambites quite rightly says), and I'd add that what most performance car buyers probably want is a flash looking washing machine with a few fancy features. Driving for the sake of the pleasure of just driving, like one might surf, mountain bike or ski, has virtually vanished from modern road cars.
I'd like to think that some manufacturers do offer glimpses of light, I'm thinking primarily of all Lotus cars and the Toyota GT86, but both cars are heavily criticised and perhaps guided to future iterations by people who view and judge sports cars by numbers, not feelings.
Like many people, I own the best daily driver that I can find (relatively speaking!) and then find my solace by owning an older and more specialised car for weekends. That car sits in my garage alongside my bikes, windsurf boards and other sports stuff, which harks back to what I was just saying about few people enjoying cars like others enjoy skiing or mountain biking: for me this where driver's cars are heading - a minority interest sport or past-time, not a feature of a daily driver.
kambites said:
Charlie Michael said:
I have one so I am completely biased...but my 2010 MX-5 is simply amazing in terms of feedback/lack of grip/low speed enjoyable handling and an over-riding sense of mechanical interaction.
I cannot think of another car for sale aside from the new MX-5 which offers the same sense of connection at "normal" speeds.
A lot of it is down to what you're used to. To me the mk3 MX5 feels like a big numb barge of a car. I cannot think of another car for sale aside from the new MX-5 which offers the same sense of connection at "normal" speeds.
I love chucking it down a B road!
gm77 said:
For me, driving a modern fast car is like watching your team on TV score an important goal in an important game. Driving an old school car is like being on the pitch and scoring that goal yourself.
Perfect analogy.Having now had to give up motorbike riding for various reasons including medical one, once the bike is sold, a proper old & slow, but fun weekend toy will be on the shopping list to fill the space in the garage, and when the 135i goes at some point in the future, it will be just replaced by a comfy barge that I won't really care about
Strela said:
an early 80s Merc SL, which handles like a narrowboat, has more wind noise with the roof up than with the roof down, drinks super unleaded in the quantities one would expect of a 33 year old ton and a half V8, and gets 5 minutes idling from a cold start before I set off so as not to startle it. It will cruise all day long at 90-100 (where permitted, by me) but when I had to do a modest emergency brake on a motorway I did actually think the f
ker was going to capsize.
ker was going to capsize.
I think that's the winner for this week's PH literature prize!
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