RE: British-built track specials: Market Watch
Discussion
A friend of mine recently messaged me asking about a GTR or R8 V10. (42 Shape) He wanted a "sunny days" car. I said that as and when he wanted to look at any cars Id tag along and give my professional opinion.
Few weeks passed and then he sent me a pic of an Aerial Atom in his garage. Have yet to see it in the metal, but he seems to love it. Obviously not the best time of year for such a thing. And as I said to him I wouldn't have one, but if he's happy with it. Who am I to say how he should have spent his money?
Few weeks passed and then he sent me a pic of an Aerial Atom in his garage. Have yet to see it in the metal, but he seems to love it. Obviously not the best time of year for such a thing. And as I said to him I wouldn't have one, but if he's happy with it. Who am I to say how he should have spent his money?
To me, this is the logical conclusion if you want to have fun on four wheels - get a track day car. If it is road legal that makes it a bit easier as you can drive it to the track instead of trailering it there. It is becoming more difficult to enjoy 'spirited' driving on the road, so the place to go is the track.
I'm not sure why people get so angry about the idea of this as a toy - most sports cars are that. Sure, you might use a sports car for transportation, but if it is a second car that is used for the odd sunny drive, then it is the same thing. How many super car owners go for a 'fun' drive when it is peeing down?
I'm not sure why people get so angry about the idea of this as a toy - most sports cars are that. Sure, you might use a sports car for transportation, but if it is a second car that is used for the odd sunny drive, then it is the same thing. How many super car owners go for a 'fun' drive when it is peeing down?
Can't help but think that a vx220 (i know, biased) offers all of the Elise without the larger price tag. The 2.2 is pretty reliable, you can drive it too and from a td in relative comfort with a roof should it rain and running costs are reasonable. The turbo gives you that bit extra power. The similarities are greater than the differences between the Vx/Elise.
Sford said:
Can't help but think that a vx220 (i know, biased) offers all of the Elise without the larger price tag. The 2.2 is pretty reliable, you can drive it too and from a td in relative comfort with a roof should it rain and running costs are reasonable. The turbo gives you that bit extra power. The similarities are greater than the differences between the Vx/Elise.
A 2ZZ swapped Mk3 MR2 gives even more bang for the buck. baronbennyt said:
I've taken the plunge by ordering another British-built track special: a road-spec Lotus 3-Eleven through Bell & Colvill in Surrey. When I came across the 3-Eleven in the flesh at the Geneva Motor Show last year, I was hooked. I'm a track day enthusiast who regularly enjoys circuit days across the country as well as travelling further afield for my fix, including Spa-Francorchamps and the Nurburgring. But not having experienced a truly dedicated track day weapon, which could also be driven to and from the circuit (at a push), I decided the Lotus was the special one to indulge my passion. Now, I know the price tag is very high but I'm hoping it won't depreciate like an anvil off a ten storey building. Hell, it might even hold its value if pre-owned 2-Elevens are anything to go by. It's also nice to buy British for once instead of forking over my hard earned to Stuttgart or Munich. Foolhardy or inspired? I'll find out soon enough when mine arrives in March...
You won't be disappointed. Edited by baronbennyt on Sunday 12th February 13:22
Edited by baronbennyt on Sunday 12th February 15:09
I was driven by a B & C lotus chappie in a 3-11 around Goodwood in September. It will kill the road cars with ease. The rest is up to you
405dogvan said:
I've often thought the main reason Caterhams/Ariels and the like keep their value is that the manufacturer/dealer network is very close-knit and can afford to sit-on used-cars which are priced at cheeky levels until the next mug arrives...
This obviously doesn't work if the manufacturer tanks - although plenty of marques have continued to be 'buoyed up' by dealers after 'death' as they wring every-last-quid out of owners - you know which marques/dealers I'm talking about, I'm sure.
The main issue you'll have moving any car like this is that it might take a while to sell a car once you've done with it - trade-ins are further south of showrooms prices than with regular cars (reflecting the months/years the dealer will be looking at your car) and I suspect quite a few people sell privately at somewhat less than you'd think just to get rid of the thing so they can buy the other thing...
This isn't reserved to track cars either - the sheer number of supercars in 'specialist dealers' suggest to me they're either on-consignment or that cars are trading for rather less than the ambitious screen prices (there are several high-end cars which certain dealers have been trying to sell for YEARS - even in the so-called bubble)
Caterhams and Ariels have strong residuals, always have. It's quite surprising to see such negativity towards these things. This obviously doesn't work if the manufacturer tanks - although plenty of marques have continued to be 'buoyed up' by dealers after 'death' as they wring every-last-quid out of owners - you know which marques/dealers I'm talking about, I'm sure.
The main issue you'll have moving any car like this is that it might take a while to sell a car once you've done with it - trade-ins are further south of showrooms prices than with regular cars (reflecting the months/years the dealer will be looking at your car) and I suspect quite a few people sell privately at somewhat less than you'd think just to get rid of the thing so they can buy the other thing...
This isn't reserved to track cars either - the sheer number of supercars in 'specialist dealers' suggest to me they're either on-consignment or that cars are trading for rather less than the ambitious screen prices (there are several high-end cars which certain dealers have been trying to sell for YEARS - even in the so-called bubble)
yonex said:
Caterhams and Ariels have strong residuals, always have. It's quite surprising to see such negativity towards these things.
Ah, the old residuals myth, yet again.Actually, when you calculate their residual value against the tiny mileages they typically cover in their lives, they're pretty dismal. And because they're so over-priced in the first place, when you calculate the actual loss in value in £cash, that's pretty dismal, too - especially when measured against much cheaper kit cars that are often just as capable.
It's man-maths; nothing more.
corozin said:
Re the price of the BAC, the amusing thing about all of this is that a few years ago I saw a Mosler GT race car on sale for £120,000. My point is that if you've got that much money for a track toy why wouldn't you just go and buy a real racing car? You'll be trailering it anyway.
Running costs? The mono is relatively tame in engine and suspension tech, rebuilding a set of dampers, or replacing the lifed suspension uprights etc of a full race car compared to a track/road car will be prohibitively expensive.Even saloon/hatchback-based cars are expensive to run in a full race spec.
Plus you would never get a Mosler/F4/Formula Renault car out at a normal track day - you'd have to go out on race test days and mix it up with some highly expensive and very fast machinery.
Rich_W said:
Or buy a Superbike for £10K and fit some race slicks.
Much MUCH cheaper and comparable for thrills.
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/bikes-for-sale/yamah...
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/bikes-for-sale/bmw/s...
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/bikes-for-sale/honda...
You're welcome
Marginally more expensive than a brand new 600ccMuch MUCH cheaper and comparable for thrills.
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/bikes-for-sale/yamah...
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/bikes-for-sale/bmw/s...
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/bikes-for-sale/honda...
You're welcome
Engage Warp Speeeeeeed!
Equus said:
Ah, the old residuals myth, yet again.
Actually, when you calculate their residual value against the tiny mileages they typically cover in their lives, they're pretty dismal. And because they're so over-priced in the first place, when you calculate the actual loss in value in £cash, that's pretty dismal, too - especially when measured against much cheaper kit cars that are often just as capable.
It's man-maths; nothing more.
I have never understood these sorts of comments? I wouldn't look at a BAC and ask the guy 'Why', because it's the answer is blindingly obvious. 'Because'. As for your understanding of the residuals, well, they're just totally wrong. I can say that as a fact after selling a Caterham and having had offers for the Ariel. You'd lose more selling a two year old Fiesta.Actually, when you calculate their residual value against the tiny mileages they typically cover in their lives, they're pretty dismal. And because they're so over-priced in the first place, when you calculate the actual loss in value in £cash, that's pretty dismal, too - especially when measured against much cheaper kit cars that are often just as capable.
It's man-maths; nothing more.
Yeah that comment about residuals makes little sense. If I drop £20k on a Caterham, keep it for five years, put 10k miles on it and sell it for £15k that's still incredibly cheap. In reality that would be very, very heavy depreciation for a Caterham and if I were to buy a desirable spec I should lose less than that.
The issue is having that much money to tie up in a toy, fair play to people who do.
The issue is having that much money to tie up in a toy, fair play to people who do.
Andy665 said:
cib24 said:
People have the right to use their disposable income as they please. People that can afford a dedicated track car are using them to fulfil their passion and hobby just like others will spend tons on the latest bicylce and licra to ride behind a London bus for a 5km ride in the morning, or how others will spend tons on skiing kit or the latest 70" OLED TV and home theatre setup.
It's a hobby just like any other and some people are able to afford doing it properly. What's wrong with that? No need to be jealous.
This website caters to all motoring enthusiasts regardless of your budget.
The above perfectly sums up why I rarely visit this forum anymore - readers cars is about my limitIt's a hobby just like any other and some people are able to afford doing it properly. What's wrong with that? No need to be jealous.
This website caters to all motoring enthusiasts regardless of your budget.
charltjr said:
If I drop £20k on a Caterham, keep it for five years, put 10k miles on it and sell it for £15k that's still incredibly cheap.
Actually, it isn't, you know. It's £0.50 per mile in depreciation alone (and that's on a second-hand car that has done most of its depreciation: we're talking about the people who buy these cars new, here).There are family hatchbacks out there that have been assessed to give running costs of £0.28 per mile, all-in (depreciation, fuel, maintenance, insurance, tax).
The HMRC reckons it shouldn't be costing you more than £0.45 per mile, all in, and that any more constitutes either:
a) idiocy or;
b) tax fraud
But keep on deluding yourself, if you like...
Equus said:
charltjr said:
If I drop £20k on a Caterham, keep it for five years, put 10k miles on it and sell it for £15k that's still incredibly cheap.
Actually, it isn't, you know. It's £0.50 per mile in depreciation alone (and that's on a second-hand car that has done most of its depreciation: we're talking about the people who buy these cars new, here).There are family hatchbacks out there that have been assessed to give running costs of £0.28 per mile, all-in (depreciation, fuel, maintenance, insurance, tax).
The HMRC reckons it shouldn't be costing you more than £0.45 per mile, all in, and that any more constitutes either:
a) idiocy or;
b) tax fraud
But keep on deluding yourself, if you like...
charltjr said:
That's a rather misleading comparison you're using, as I'm sure you know
No it's not. It's a simple cost per mile. It's the real cost of actually using the car - nothing misleading about it.If you were masochistic enough to use the car at 'normal' mileages, you'd find it even worse - it would be literally worthless, as nobody in their right mind would dream of buying a Caterham with a 6-figure mileage (although my experience, having run one as a genuine all-year-round daily driver when I was younger, is that it would have corroded away to nothing long before then, anyway).
yonex said:
Equus said:
Ah, the old residuals myth, yet again.
Actually, when you calculate their residual value against the tiny mileages they typically cover in their lives, they're pretty dismal. And because they're so over-priced in the first place, when you calculate the actual loss in value in £cash, that's pretty dismal, too - especially when measured against much cheaper kit cars that are often just as capable.
It's man-maths; nothing more.
I have never understood these sorts of comments? I wouldn't look at a BAC and ask the guy 'Why', because it's the answer is blindingly obvious. 'Because'. As for your understanding of the residuals, well, they're just totally wrong. I can say that as a fact after selling a Caterham and having had offers for the Ariel. You'd lose more selling a two year old Fiesta.Actually, when you calculate their residual value against the tiny mileages they typically cover in their lives, they're pretty dismal. And because they're so over-priced in the first place, when you calculate the actual loss in value in £cash, that's pretty dismal, too - especially when measured against much cheaper kit cars that are often just as capable.
It's man-maths; nothing more.
The second I sold for what I paid after 2 years. Both were second hand examples, I suspect if new the result would have been quite different, especially as options don't seem to retain value that well.
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