Say there is a diesel backlash ?

[fivepointnine]

Maybe it will firm up the value on my Petrol BMW X3!

[Limpet]

Taxation's primary purpose is to raise revenue for the Exchequer, but it is a powerful influence on people's behaviour. The combination of these two factors mean the goalposts have to keep moving as people naturally gravitate towards "tax friendly" options, and revenue decreases as a result.

The idea that vehicle taxation, or any other for that matter, is driven by environmental considerations is fundamentally dishonest. The environmental message is simply an excuse to justify whatever tax rules are to be imposed at the time. Hence when there were hardly any diesels on the road, they were made tax friendly alongside of message of being "environmentally friendly" due to their relatively low CO2 emissions, and tax on the petrol cars everyone owned was ramped up 'because global warming'. Now the behaviour has been influenced to the point where everyone is in diesel cars, revenue has dropped and the cost of running a private diesel car is going to have to go up to compensate (or tax rises will need to be found elsewhere).

The increasing rhetoric around diesel's damage to the environment and our health over the last year is not a coincidence. And neither are the tax changes that are coming. And whatever type of vehicle the tax system steers us towards now will be similarly disastrous for the environment in 10-15 years when we are all driving them.

This dishonest nonsense is the root of a lot of climate change scepticism and hostility towards the environmental movement in general, in my view.

[austinsmirk]

I've just got a new Nissan Leaf for my wife to replace her diesel car.

I am not an environmentalist. Any prospective car could run on the juice of mashed kittens, puppies, Brexit voters and those who choose not to work for a living, for all I care.

Its about pounds shillings and pence and overall running costs.

without a doubt, an all electric car is probably the future.

for reference, its currently doing 297 mpg (equivalent of) in the 400 miles we've done so far. It might get up to 343 mpg with a less heavy foot and so on. but its actually rather quick and its good fun whizzing about silently !

I don't see how going back to petrol powered cars is the way forward at all, if diesels are outlawed/restricted.

I do accept diesel engines are needed for vans/trucks and so on, until EV's/technology might get there.

[milfordkong]

austinsmirk said:

I've just got a new Nissan Leaf for my wife to replace her diesel car.

I am not an environmentalist. Any prospective car could run on the juice of mashed kittens, puppies, Brexit voters and those who choose not to work for a living, for all I care.

Its about pounds shillings and pence and overall running costs.

without a doubt, an all electric car is probably the future.

for reference, its currently doing 297 mpg (equivalent of) in the 400 miles we've done so far. It might get up to 343 mpg with a less heavy foot and so on. but its actually rather quick and its good fun whizzing about silently !

I don't see how going back to petrol powered cars is the way forward at all, if diesels are outlawed/restricted.

I do accept diesel engines are needed for vans/trucks and so on, until EV's/technology might get there.

My wife's just got herself a Leaf too last week - I love driving it, I get a bizarre and rather addictive satisfaction from trying to grow as many of those dashboard trees from driving as economically as possible... It's pretty much the perfect car for her, costs barely a penny to run and gets her to all the places she needs or wants to go - If she needs to do a long journey she can just take one of my conventionally fueled cars.

[J4CKO]

Two very informative posts.

Austin, hope you are correct, just not sure people are quite ready for EV's quite yet but I think the uptake will increase massively, like I said, first Tesla in the office, and very nice it is as well. We could easily manage with one for 99 percent of our use, for that 1 percent, am sure I could rent or use public transport, not the same for everybody but I think diesels economy, range an low operating costs has meant people drive more than they have to, take jobs with very long commutes, that otherwise would no be viable.

[ChemicalChaos]

BoRED S2upid said:

icepop said:

I've driven both the SEAT 1.2tsi, and Fiesta 1lt Ecoboost, and been given a lift in a new Astra 1lt, and all three are a revelation. They really do pull very nicely, well into licence loosing speeds.

I went for another SEAT 1.6 Tdi, and as before am getting 60mpg around town and 70mpg on a run, but do think it might be my last diesel, those petrols are mighty smooth and impressive, and f course, cause wild flower meadows to bloom

Really? You thought a 1ltr Astra was a revelation? I thought it needed screwing in every single gear to make any progress it was hard work over 200 miles a lot more changing gear required over a Tdi. Fiesta was much better Focus and Astra are too big and heavy for such small engines IMO.

I will stick to the devils fuel for a long time yet.

I drove to Germany in a Focus ecoboost last year. With 4 people and a week's worth of luggage, it pulled ridiculously strongly through the gears for such a small engine and easily kept up with traffic. With the leggy 6th it easily cruised at 100 on the autobahn too.

Maybe it helped that unlike diesel-blinkered sheeple, I knew the boost was at 3-4k RPM rather than trying to make it chug along at 1500 revs

[romeogolf]

I would expect that the increased taxation on diesel vehicles will be in the form of higher rates for new cars, such as we're seeing now with cars over £40,000 having a surchage for the first five years.

This would have minimal effect on the used car market as people purchasing cars over 5 years old would not be worse off, but would create a shift towards petrol purchasing.

I think it's true to say that the country needs taxation income from somewhere or other, and by reducing one area they will need to increase another, but I think it's overly cynical to say that this is the "only" reason cars with higher levels of CO2 are charged more.

I'm sure in 10 to 15 years, electric vehicles will be charged at much the same rate as current petrol vehicles, but the emphasis will probably be on list price rather than emissions (for obvious reasons) and at the same time I'm sure our inner-city air quality will be much improved.

[austinsmirk]

Cheers jacko- issues are clearly the charging infrastructure and time to do so. we're lucky, we have a drive, garage etc. yr screwed if you don't have this basically.

street charging posts charge slowly- the ones you see at Asda and so on- so a zero empty battery will take 8 hrs to 100%. not an issue when yr car is parked up at night at home of course.

I understand you can use fast chargers in 30 mins in the motorway. I've yet to experience this: not sure I will tbh.

however the chap who installed my charging system at home said Sainsbury's and Lidl are now going to be installing fast chargers at their stores over the next few years, so its all good news.

My honest initial thoughts are now we've tried an EV, I can't see how a diesel, petrol, hybrid would even compete as a viable car: for our "day to day running around purposes" eg the home, school, work, kids activities churn of daily driving: when ease and costs are assessed.

Naturally a stonking great full fat range rover would be far more exciting for those purposes, but my Yorkshire pockets are lined with brass, not gold alas.

and I'm hanging onto my brass.

[ChrisR99]

ChemicalChaos said:

I drove to Germany in a Focus ecoboost last year. With 4 people and a week's worth of luggage, it pulled ridiculously strongly through the gears for such a small engine and easily kept up with traffic. With the leggy 6th it easily cruised at 100 on the autobahn too.

Maybe it helped that unlike diesel-blinkered sheeple, I knew the boost was at 3-4k RPM rather than trying to make it chug along at 1500 revs

That's very impressive, I have an Ecoboost Focus myself and find it has enough power for my current needs and will happily cruise on the motorway in 6th at 70+. I wish it had a bit more poke in first though, doesn't really get anywhere until second and the turbo kicks in.

I average 44mpg, which i think is pretty good!

[Zetec-S]

I can't see any significant backlash on diesels any time soon. The government may make token gestures to appease the current hysteria, but in reality they'd face too much of a backlash from the middle classes if they made any sudden hike in tax, etc. More likely to be a phased decline, but I still think diesel cars will be commonplace on the roads and in showrooms well into the next decade, as the technology is still a way off for anyone doing regular long distances to convert to EV.

That said, the people who started buying diesel 10 years ago because they liked "cheap tax and only having to fill up once a month" will shift to petrol and to a smaller extent, EV, as they realise they don't do the miles to justify it.

[J4CKO]

ChemicalChaos said:

BoRED S2upid said:

icepop said:

I've driven both the SEAT 1.2tsi, and Fiesta 1lt Ecoboost, and been given a lift in a new Astra 1lt, and all three are a revelation. They really do pull very nicely, well into licence loosing speeds.

I went for another SEAT 1.6 Tdi, and as before am getting 60mpg around town and 70mpg on a run, but do think it might be my last diesel, those petrols are mighty smooth and impressive, and f course, cause wild flower meadows to bloom

Really? You thought a 1ltr Astra was a revelation? I thought it needed screwing in every single gear to make any progress it was hard work over 200 miles a lot more changing gear required over a Tdi. Fiesta was much better Focus and Astra are too big and heavy for such small engines IMO.

I will stick to the devils fuel for a long time yet.

I drove to Germany in a Focus ecoboost last year. With 4 people and a week's worth of luggage, it pulled ridiculously strongly through the gears for such a small engine and easily kept up with traffic. With the leggy 6th it easily cruised at 100 on the autobahn too.

Maybe it helped that unlike diesel-blinkered sheeple, I knew the boost was at 3-4k RPM rather than trying to make it chug along at 1500 revs

Please speak to my missus, we had a minor argument the other day, she has an Ecoboost Fiesta 100 (mapped to 140) and its pretty nippy for what it is, but she seems to catch it off boost and then the whole thing shudders as she is trying to make it go up hill, 4 up in 4th at 40, which is complains about and she sees a downchange as an admission of defeat. I tell her she is potentially damaging it, the pistons are trying to go sideways but she just gets all grumpy, strange as she is then happy to bowl along a gear lower than she should be at speed, she is a pretty good driver but has some bad habits.

[bungz]

ChrisR99 said:

That's very impressive, I have an Ecoboost Focus myself and find it has enough power for my current needs and will happily cruise on the motorway in 6th at 70+. I wish it had a bit more poke in first though, doesn't really get anywhere until second and the turbo kicks in.

I average 44mpg, which i think is pretty good!

Torque limited for first gear isn't it?

[Zetec-S]

J4CKO said:

Please speak to my missus, we had a minor argument the other day, she has an Ecoboost Fiesta 100 (mapped to 140) and its pretty nippy for what it is, but she seems to catch it off boost and then the whole thing shudders as she is trying to make it go up hill, 4 up in 4th at 40, which is complains about and she sees a downchange as an admission of defeat. I tell her she is potentially damaging it, the pistons are trying to go sideways but she just gets all grumpy, strange as she is then happy to bowl along a gear lower than she should be at speed, she is a pretty good driver but has some bad habits.

I could write a book about Mrs ZS and (her lack of) mechanical sympathy. If it's not being in too low a gear, it's her attempt to remove the handbrake lever from the rest of the mechanism whenever she parks up

[Sheepshanks]

J4CKO said:

Please speak to my missus, we had a minor argument the other day, she has an Ecoboost Fiesta 100 (mapped to 140) and its pretty nippy for what it is, but she seems to catch it off boost and then the whole thing shudders as she is trying to make it go up hill, 4 up in 4th at 40, which is complains about and she sees a downchange as an admission of defeat. I tell her she is potentially damaging it, the pistons are trying to go sideways but she just gets all grumpy, strange as she is then happy to bowl along a gear lower than she should be at speed, she is a pretty good driver but has some bad habits.

Like turbo diesels, these cars probably work better as autos. The issue of being in the right gear goes away then.

[J4CKO]

Sheepshanks said:

J4CKO said:

Please speak to my missus, we had a minor argument the other day, she has an Ecoboost Fiesta 100 (mapped to 140) and its pretty nippy for what it is, but she seems to catch it off boost and then the whole thing shudders as she is trying to make it go up hill, 4 up in 4th at 40, which is complains about and she sees a downchange as an admission of defeat. I tell her she is potentially damaging it, the pistons are trying to go sideways but she just gets all grumpy, strange as she is then happy to bowl along a gear lower than she should be at speed, she is a pretty good driver but has some bad habits.

Like turbo diesels, these cars probably work better as autos. The issue of being in the right gear goes away then.

Irony is, I have the auto, with nigh on 400 lb/ft it could probably work with 2 gears quite happily.

Her other bad habit it accelerating towards a prevailing situation, I find myself braking in an empty passenger footwell (empty apart from all her crap) doest leave much margin for error...

[valiant]

rxe said:

Even as a London dweller, I think the whole diesel thing is massively overplayed.

At the moment, the only thing on the cards is the central congestion charge zone, an area that I haven't driven in for about a decade because driving is a really crap way of getting around. You can't move, you can't park, and there is a perfectly good tube system. So no impact there. I doubt the zone will be extended because the financial impact to the number of voters that matter will be huge. Other cities will be similar.

So really, you're looking at fuel price hikes (won't happen because the freight industry will scream), and direct tax rises on the cars - doesn't affect the current s/h fleet.

Now is the time to buy a nice cheap Euro 3/4 car and enjoy 600+ miles on a tank, easy tuning and low maintenance costs for a few years. Having picked up a temporary 140 mile a day commute, my diesel shed has paid for itself in a month.

You could be in for a nasty surprise in the next few years. Mayor Kahn wants to extend the ULEZ to the North/South Circular borders and anything that isn't Euro 6 will be clobbered. Sure you may get a discount but it is still an extra cost you will have pay for the joy of driving through London.

Whether he'll have the budget to implement it though remains to be seen but you can't not have noticed all the bad air reports in the media in the last few months which will only strengthen his case (despite diesel being only one of many reasons for the poor quality air in that there London)

[tjlees]

fathomfive said:

Roger Irrelevant said:

tjlees said:

I always take pheasant transport into cities since its usually faster and cheaper

Do you ride shotgun when you do that?

Puns, it's that ptarmigan.

Only when in Atlantis - it keeps the web feet people away

[Croutons]

Standards residential permit in Merton, £65. Diesel, to be £215. Nothing to do with only getting away with a 5% rise in council tax before you have to have a referendum, nothing to do with tax short falls, it's all environmental, innit.

We are sitting fking ducks for st like this.

[Limpet]

Croutons said:

Standards residential permit in Merton, £65. Diesel, to be £215. Nothing to do with only getting away with a 5% rise in council tax before you have to have a referendum, nothing to do with tax short falls, it's all environmental, innit.

We are sitting fking ducks for st like this.

This.

[tjlees]

Limpet said:

Croutons said:

Standards residential permit in Merton, £65. Diesel, to be £215. Nothing to do with only getting away with a 5% rise in council tax before you have to have a referendum, nothing to do with tax short falls, it's all environmental, innit.

We are sitting fking ducks for st like this.

This.

..and the diesel bashing starts