RE: PH Service History: Down the plug hole

[culpz]

RemarkLima said:

rockin said:

GranCab said:

A friend of mine has a BMW i3 bought new as a company car 3 and a bit years ago @ £36K ... he was recently offered £9K (with 26,0000 miles on the clock) for it as a trade-in against a new i3......

That's shocking.

But trade in values are always absolutely shocking right? That'd Retail for circa 15k I'd guess?

Buy low, sell high. Cheapest i've seen them on AT is around 15k.

[RemarkLima]

culpz said:

RemarkLima said:

rockin said:

GranCab said:

A friend of mine has a BMW i3 bought new as a company car 3 and a bit years ago @ £36K ... he was recently offered £9K (with 26,0000 miles on the clock) for it as a trade-in against a new i3......

That's shocking.

But trade in values are always absolutely shocking right? That'd Retail for circa 15k I'd guess?

Buy low, sell high. Cheapest i've seen them on AT is around 15k.

And don't forget being a main dealer, if they sold the car for £15k, they'd have to pay VAT on the £6k - that's £1200 to the g'ment for the privilege of existing, so the £6k becomes £4.8k, then corporation tax at 20% so ~£4k - plus they'd need to valet and prep the car, and given the overheads of a main-dealer - nice coffee machines, staff, a few million quids worth of stock, land, lighting, security and no doubt a monthly chunk of interest to be paid back to the bank, suddenly that £4k seems like a paper thin margin to me.

My i3 will come to end of the lease next year so will see what's the deal then but reckon it'll be ~£17k - but then a lease is just a case of funding the depreciation right?

[Yipper]

The Renault Zoe is losing -84% of its value from new within 3 years. The fastest-falling car in Britiain. Used prices are a disaster for some electric cars.

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-49...

Edited by Yipper on Monday 4th December 10:09

[oilspill]

The i8's performance is very realistic with our ever increasing congestion and reducing speed limits.
The other thing I like about the car is they havn't made it macho looking. German cars are about sophistication and refinement yet the favourites on piston heads tended to be the ones that have been made to look and sound the opposite.

The comments I've heard about this car being 'overpriced' are unfair. I doubt the profit is that great. With a V8 thrown in and (now banned) exhaust valves, people would be all over this like a rash, with barely any critics.

I'm guessing the price has more to do with the expensive production costs in combination with them only making two dozen or so cars per day? If BMW go all electric for the Mini they have the capacity to make nearly 3 times that many cars in 1 hour! and produce around the clock.

[IanCress]

Yipper said:

The Renault Zoe is losing -84% of its value from new within 3 years. The fastest-falling car in Britiain. Used prices are a disaster for some electric cars.

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-49...

Edited by Yipper on Monday 4th December 10:09

I haven't read the article, but it will be due to the fact that you have to rent the battery pack separately. Basically if you buy a Zoe it's like buying a car without an engine, which is why it's so cheap.

[oilspill]

Yipper said:

The Renault Zoe is losing -84% of its value from new within 3 years. The fastest-falling car in Britiain. Used prices are a disaster for some electric cars.

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-49...

Edited by Yipper on Monday 4th December 10:09

For people who dont sell their cars they will still be saving money though.
40+ age doing higher mileages keeping cars long term and/or DIY mechanics get the most value from a new car.

I've herad that EV batteries have a decdent resale value to be used for power storage, athough this obviosuly doesn't apply to Renault with their leasing strategy

[sjg]

peter450 said:

Tesla do seem to be hold there own value wise compared to petrol powered rivals. I think their are a few things supporting them, first demand, second it's still cutting edge the only proper full electric vehicle you can buy, it's the first proper useable electric car (so one for the history books) and third it's a nice looking car and I was very impressed with the base model I had a drive in a couple of years back, prices on new ones are higher now too.

The range, performance and supercharger network are still unrivalled in the electric car space, plus they're a proper big family size - for a lot of people a Leaf or Zoe or i3 would be quite a compromise on passenger and luggage room.

With Tesla 2nd hand values the key thing is that if you buy a used one from Telsa they fix anything that needs doing and put a fresh 4 year / 50k mile comprehensive factory warranty on it (as well as the remaining powertrain warranty). If you're looking at private or a non-Tesla dealer it would have to be quite a bit cheaper to make up for it.

Private sales are dropping below £35k now. Tesla frequently have used stock dipping below £40k.

[Guvernator]

My main worry about buying a second hand Tesla or similar would be the condition of the batteries, my iPhone is about 2 years old but already its battery operates at less than 80% of when it was brand new.

If you buy a 3 year old Tesla, are you buying a car which can only carry 80% charge? How long do the batteries last and by that I don't mean how long till they completely fail but until they do an iphone and start to achieve range that is far less than stated when new?

I'm not sure if any proper studies have been done on this but if I bought a second hand car which only did 150 miles rather than 300 on a charge, I'd be pretty pissed.

[TeaNoSugar]

Guvernator said:

My main worry about buying a second hand Tesla or similar would be the condition of the batteries, my iPhone is about 2 years old but already its battery operates at less than 80% of when it was brand new.

If you buy a 3 year old Tesla, are you buying a car which can only carry 80% charge? How long do the batteries last and by that I don't mean how long till they completely fail but until they do an iphone and start to achieve range that is far less than stated when new?

I'm not sure if any proper studies have been done on this but if I bought a second hand car which only did 150 miles rather than 300 on a charge, I'd be pretty pissed.

Hasn't this been disproved on any number of occasions now? As far as I can tell from what I've read/seen, the battery performance reduces very slowly.

That guy who does the Fully Charged YouTube channel (which I admit o find quite interesting) is often quoting various owners with high mileage Teslas with no battery related woes.

In fact I'm sure i read there are Teslas in Scandinavia somewhere being used as taxis with 200,000+ km on the clock, with battery life/performance of 95% or so.

[Lowtimer]

The thing with lithium-ion / lithium polymer batteries though is that they have a calendar life even regardless of number of charge cycles. Even if they are used and charged according to the book, the calendar life varies with heat in whch they are stored (parked in the case of cars). A Tesla which lives in Arizona can be expected to see battery deterioration well before one that lives in Norway.

[LayZ]

biggles330d said:

i3 - pertinent topic. Mine is due off lease next week. All electric with nice options (pro-nav, nice alloys, tinted windows, HK speaker upgrade, rapid charge connection). Now 2 years old and 11500 miles.
Lease company has offered it at £16,700. I think it's still a bit high (it is the earlier battery model) but I have been really tempted as its a great car and I'm probably going to lease a new one anyway. The appeal of the LCI model and holding out for the next battery upgrade later in 2018 is what's putting me off keeping it.

£9k though. Bandits. It's a steal at that price.

Yours for £16.7k? That is a BEV I assume? Pretty good price I think. BMW would probably retail that for £20k?

[Guvernator]

I far as I am aware, the underlying battery tech is very similar to that in your mobile phone, just on a larger scale. I have two previous iphone 4s phones that are basically useless as they only hold charge for about 3-4 hours rather than the 24 they used to when new and from discussions with friends, this isn't an isolated incident. I would never buy a second hand 3-4 year old iphone off ebay for just this reason.

How is it that they've not managed to fix the decreasing charge efficiency issue on phones but seem to have this issue licked in electric cars?

[IanCress]

Guvernator said:

I far as I am aware, the underlying battery tech is very similar to that in your mobile phone, just on a larger scale. I have two previous iphone 4s phones that are basically useless as they only hold charge for about 3-4 hours rather than the 24 they used to when new and from discussions with friends, this isn't an isolated incident. I would never buy a second hand 3-4 year old iphone off ebay for just this reason.

How is it that they've not managed to fix the decreasing charge efficiency issue on phones but seem to have this issue licked in electric cars?

I don't think you can directly compare. Usage profiles and charging technologies are very different, and it wouldn't surprise me if there's no great push to improve the mobile phone's battery life. It seems quite useful that the batteries start to degrade towards the end of the average 2 year contract.

[oilspill]

rtz62 said:

I’m sure other people have wondered about the following, so I’ll ask it out loud;
Whilst I applied the concept of electrikity-powered cars, I can’t consider one if I want to take the family on holiday by car to France.
Why?
Well, as I see it, I fill up my car with electrickety before leaving home, and by the time I get down to the Chunnel I’m thinking, ‘hmmn, could do with a few more ohms, amps, bolts etc before I get into France’
So I bumble over to the nearest charging point only to find queues to use them.
And it’s not like a splash-and-dash with a fossil fuelled car, I have to sit around for an hour or so for a ‘quick’ charge (ok, I might have the time wrong, but you get the gist)
Or, when I get into or just past Calais, I try the same, only to encounter queues again.
Driving down to the south of France would need to be carefully planned as far as I see it as it will take considerably longer due to the eased time just sat pouring some more electrickety into the tank.
SWMBO asked why they don’t make the roof of such cars out of solar panels, despite the weight, cost etc and also the fact that cloudy countries like the uk won’t have enough sunshine to make a reasonable difference.
Anyway, I’ll stick with my petrol Quattro and diesel Octavia estate based on that, thank you very much.

Teslas are travelling all over Europe (I always see Norwegian and Dutch cars In Milan in the summer) without the slightest hint of concern. There are no queues at Eurotunnel chargers. Tesla could install more chargers if that was the case.

There are two locations in Calais if you dont use the one in Folkestone, then you've go one on each road, to Brussels and Antwerp, from Ghent if heading that way.

The car will tell you where it needs to stop when you punch your destination in, no planning required unless you want to plan the charge around Breakfast or lunch (sensible decision) A half an hour charge whilst your family use toilets and get refreshments is also doable.
The first hotel in Switzerland with a supercharger is a top hotel and reasonably priced and has at least half a dozen chargers with 1 or 2 usually free on arrival.

[TooLateForAName]

Yipper said:

The Renault Zoe is losing -84% of its value from new within 3 years. The fastest-falling car in Britiain. Used prices are a disaster for some electric cars.

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-49...

How many times are you going to role out that totally inaccurate article? It isn't as if the errors haven't been pointed out on every other thread that you quote it?

[RemarkLima]

TeaNoSugar said:

Guvernator said:

My main worry about buying a second hand Tesla or similar would be the condition of the batteries, my iPhone is about 2 years old but already its battery operates at less than 80% of when it was brand new.

If you buy a 3 year old Tesla, are you buying a car which can only carry 80% charge? How long do the batteries last and by that I don't mean how long till they completely fail but until they do an iphone and start to achieve range that is far less than stated when new?

I'm not sure if any proper studies have been done on this but if I bought a second hand car which only did 150 miles rather than 300 on a charge, I'd be pretty pissed.

Hasn't this been disproved on any number of occasions now? As far as I can tell from what I've read/seen, the battery performance reduces very slowly.

That guy who does the Fully Charged YouTube channel (which I admit o find quite interesting) is often quoting various owners with high mileage Teslas with no battery related woes.

In fact I'm sure i read there are Teslas in Scandinavia somewhere being used as taxis with 200,000+ km on the clock, with battery life/performance of 95% or so.

I'd also understood that the batteries in a car are a few hundred cells, whilst your phone has maybe 3 or 6 (laptop may have 9) and hence the charge and discharge cycles are limited to those cells.

A car can manage the charge and discharge of banks of cells much more effectively than a phone - so if batteries are best to be discharged to 20% then recharged, there's enough of a pool of cells to manage this more effectively than a 3 cell phone.

Also, bear in mind my Samsung has never suffered the badly and as quickly as any iPhones - I wonder again if Apple just do not focus on the battery management as well as they should?

[ricola]

As others have said, no issue with long distance travel in a Tesla thanks to the supercharger network and that is absolutely key to it. I do over twice the mileage in my Tesla than in any previous cars. Euro road trips for the last 3 summers, South of France, Spain and Venice.

The batteries may be similar tech to other appliances but the key for Tesla's life is the very good power and thermal management of the cells. There's a bit of degradation initially but that levels off pretty quickly. There are cars out there with 300k miles and about 5% degradation which isn't really an issue..

We have a Zoe as our runabout on PCP, I think it's the battery lease that kills values of those, great for local use though..

[big_rob_sydney]

erics said:

Whoever says the i8's performance is lacking should get their head examined.

People get it wrong. It's not the outright power that makes it attractive, it's the torque figure and the immediacy of it. In the real world (and in all weather), it is quicke than -say- my Aston v12v.

Pound for pound, it is the best value sportscar one can buy today. Hybrid or not.

The only reason why it's not more expensive is that a year after launch, bmw arbitrarily elected to double production. They were trading at a premium before that.

It's an exceptional gt / sportscar, that's totally painless to own, super economical and that makes you feel really special.

Edited by erics on Sunday 3rd December 22:52

We'll I guess it's me that needs my head being examined then.

But before you go all extremist on us, bear in mind what you're saying. Best value performance car pound for pound? New what's the price compared to , say, a Nissan GTR or an Ultima Evolution? And same goes for second hand prices?

I would respectfully suggest it'll get its arse handed to it on a platter every which way from Sunday.

The Aston may look pretty, but it's a hairdressers car in drag for a fag. Poseurs only need apply.

[jamoor]

big_rob_sydney said:

We'll I guess it's me that needs my head being examined then.

But before you go all extremist on us, bear in mind what you're saying. Best value performance car pound for pound? New what's the price compared to , say, a Nissan GTR or an Ultima Evolution? And same goes for second hand prices?

I would respectfully suggest it'll get its arse handed to it on a platter every which way from Sunday.

The Aston may look pretty, but it's a hairdressers car in drag for a fag. Poseurs only need apply.

If we are talking pound for pound we may have to look at hot hatches and the like surely?

[oilspill]

Guvernator said:

My main worry about buying a second hand Tesla or similar would be the condition of the batteries, my iPhone is about 2 years old but already its battery operates at less than 80% of when it was brand new.

If you buy a 3 year old Tesla, are you buying a car which can only carry 80% charge? How long do the batteries last and by that I don't mean how long till they completely fail but until they do an iphone and start to achieve range that is far less than stated when new?

I'm not sure if any proper studies have been done on this but if I bought a second hand car which only did 150 miles rather than 300 on a charge, I'd be pretty pissed.

.



Found this comment from Tesla article on Ars Technica. Sounds complex

Edited by oilspill on Tuesday 5th December 00:04