RE: Where is Europe's Corvette? PH Footnote
Discussion
I think one unmentioned reason that the Americans can offer so much is that they have the infrastructure to achieve the economy of scales. You can design a "cheap" sports car which breaks even on high volumes but you can only sell these volumes if you have a large dealer network. GM and Ford can sell corvettes and Mustangs in their thousands as they have this network, supported by selling the bread and butter stuff. Lotus never will so there would be no point in even trying.
unsprung said:
No post above has provided the correct answer.
(although two or three comments are very close)
The answer is not about comparisons of tax that are somehow "unfair". It's not about market size (the EU market has many more households than the US). It's not about SUVs (two-thirds of the US market is SUVs and light trucks). It's not about development costs. It's not about interior aesthetics. It's not about journalists.
What's it about then?(although two or three comments are very close)
The answer is not about comparisons of tax that are somehow "unfair". It's not about market size (the EU market has many more households than the US). It's not about SUVs (two-thirds of the US market is SUVs and light trucks). It's not about development costs. It's not about interior aesthetics. It's not about journalists.
HardtopManual said:
Unfortunately, it would bomb. Some supposed motoring journalist would hunt out a piece of hard, shiny plastic in the interior, in a place most people would never see, tell Joe Public that the interior is crap and that would be that.
Well, to be honest, sit in a "base" AMG GT, you will see a lot of shiny plastic and their like...That's the reason for the options list
The original media chatter would have had you believe that the baby Aston 'AMV8' was aimed at that gap, a few years later the Jaguar F type focused on the spot but I can't think of anything post Cerbera that actually hit the mark.
The Aston was slow, ridiculously stiff but still poor handing and over expensive. The F-type had the looks but chassis dynamics from a 30 year old saloon car and again couldn't bring it in on price.
Short of the seemingly impossible return of TVR to the market they left. Lotus do seem to me to be the best placed company to do it.. if only they could shed 20% off their list prices and make a car slightly more livable with for the day to day. I don't like spinal bifida.
The Aston was slow, ridiculously stiff but still poor handing and over expensive. The F-type had the looks but chassis dynamics from a 30 year old saloon car and again couldn't bring it in on price.
Short of the seemingly impossible return of TVR to the market they left. Lotus do seem to me to be the best placed company to do it.. if only they could shed 20% off their list prices and make a car slightly more livable with for the day to day. I don't like spinal bifida.
unsprung said:
Exige77 said:
GM are using the Corvette as a halo model and will probably lose money on it.
Come now: Does "Hey, guys, let's make no profit" sound like the US of A? Also: any loss-leading by one OEM can be copied by some other OEM.
Making no profit on the Corvette doesn’t mean they are not planning on making money on other cars.
Maybe you’re just trolling ?
I reckon there are a few issues:
1) +20% VAT takes your nominal £50k Lotus Corvette to £60k straight away (+price)
2) Europe is still a fragmented market - hard to create a brand, product and dealership network to address all of it (-volumes)
3) The cost of doing business here is higher than the US, so 'sales costs' are higher (eg your Paris dealership has to obey French labour laws, etc etc) (+price)
4) The above is greatly amplified because of the self-reinforcing vicious circle of price/volume. The car becomes a bit more expensive due to the above factors, quite a lot fewer people can afford it, volumes go down, fixed costs per unit go up, the price goes up again, even more customers drop out, etc until the price stabilises at a bit over £100k and it's a McLaren or NSX. You're probably on the steepest part of the slope on the far side of the bell curve of disposable income here, so each extra £10k on the sticker could knock out a big chunk of the potential market.
I think the early R35 GTR is a great comparison, that was similarly unreasonably quick for the money at launch and got compared to cars costing twice as much. Of course, that's also based on mass-market Skyline mechanicals, albeit highly evolved.
Earlier in this thread, somebody commented that if a value-for-money performance car would be viable in Europe, an OEM would already have offered this. And that comment, for me, was profound.
Although the mid-engined architecture of the C8 Corvette is new, there is nothing new about the tremendous value delivered to consumers by Corvette over the years. And by the likes of Camaro, Challenger, and Mustang. We're talking half a century now.
Over on the other C8 Corvette thread, a PHer waxes poetic about hiring a C7 Z06 while visiting the States. The appeal of its uncommon thrills and everyday utility were, she wrote, "a no-brainer."
So this topic is not really about the C8. It's about macroeconomics and about distinct cultures or philosophies.
In this thread, people have mentioned fuel costs. And this, imo, is where the argument truly begins.
Pop over to Cincinnati, Ohio, and visit one of those cars and coffee events on the weekend. Inform folks there that, as of today, everybody must pay more for petrol. Double, treble, and even greater. Suddenly, a lot of car enthusiasts in Cincinnati, Ohio, are not so interested in a V8 performance car.
Are household incomes the same on both sides of the Atlantic? If not, deduct 20, 30 or 40 percent from the Cincinnati pay packet. How many folks at the cars and coffee event now intend to buy any sort of performance car?
Our redefined sports car segment is now much smaller and possibly unsustainable. And this becomes a vicious cycle. As another person has noted here, when sales volume declines, unit costs rise.
TL;DR: it's about purchasing power and/or disposable income
Have you not considered that, just as the 500bhp Corvette may be particularly suited to wider American roads, the 250bhp Alpine may be particularly fun on the more narrow British and Continental roads? (I know this is a broad generalisation)
It seems to me that for about £50k, both Americans and Europeans can buy a good looking, fast sportscar, usable everyday, that suits the target market.
Cars aren’t bought by the yard... does it matter that theres has a V8, if ‘ours’ is more fun at the lower speeds found here?
It seems to me that for about £50k, both Americans and Europeans can buy a good looking, fast sportscar, usable everyday, that suits the target market.
Cars aren’t bought by the yard... does it matter that theres has a V8, if ‘ours’ is more fun at the lower speeds found here?
Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 18th August 13:58
unsprung said:
No post above has provided the correct answer....fuel costs. And this, imo, is where the argument truly begins.
Sorry, but neither have you. The likes of the Corvette, and Camaro, Mustang, etc. as you mention, have been viable and successful because they take basic components from mainstream vehicles, originally cars then increasingly trucks (i.e. V8 engines). The equivalent in Europe has and does exist - it's Z3/Z4, SLK, etc. Unsurprisingly they are largely powered by the same engines available in European brand's mainstream lineup, ditto Japanese cars. The same argument works in other ways, it's why US companies cannot offer viable small-engined, RWD sports cars and no one other than the Germans can offer V12s.JxJ Jr. said:
Sorry, but neither have you. The likes of the Corvette, and Camaro, Mustang, etc. as you mention, have been viable and successful because they take basic components from mainstream vehicles, originally cars then increasingly trucks (i.e. V8 engines). The equivalent in Europe has and does exist - it's Z3/Z4, SLK, etc. Unsurprisingly they are largely powered by the same engines available in European brand's mainstream lineup, ditto Japanese cars. The same argument works in other ways, it's why US companies cannot offer viable small-engined, RWD sports cars and no one other than the Germans can offer V12s.
I don't mind having a difference of opinion. If you'd like to believe that EU consumers are shopping cars with the same wallet and the same operating costs, as their US cousins, go ahead. I, however, don't see the data to support that.Back in the day this niche was filled perfectly by TVR in the Griff / Chim era - big V8 in a good looking but slightly rough around the edges package at an affordable price.
I often think that if TVR had concentrated on tweaking crate engines and developing the platforms further instead of creating their own engines, they could be making hay today. When the Rover V8 had to be out to rest, a deal with Ford or GM might have been the better strategy rather than piling money into the speed six.
But that ship has now sailed. Anyway, just IMHO.
I often think that if TVR had concentrated on tweaking crate engines and developing the platforms further instead of creating their own engines, they could be making hay today. When the Rover V8 had to be out to rest, a deal with Ford or GM might have been the better strategy rather than piling money into the speed six.
But that ship has now sailed. Anyway, just IMHO.
I always wanted TVR to evolve and expand -- to move beyond the expectation of shed-like build quality and the need for waivers regarding engineering for crash safety.
Maybe the most recent incarnation can still do that. They are right, imo, to be looking at a fettled crate V8 from Ford.
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